Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Considering the force of the wind and the speed at which boats plunged off
those monstrous, steep waves, the forces applied to hull and rig were
exponentially greater than what might be normally encountered in typical
"bad" weather.


And those tremendous forces were due to conditions, not the
design or build of the boats. *Any* vessel would be
stressed, any small (by which I mean 50 tons & less)
cruising sailboat probably would have fared worse. As you
pointed out, the closest thing to a crab-crusher in that
fleet sank.

Most of the skippers in that fleet were sailors of long
experience. They were sailing superbly equipped boats with
skilled crews. Once the game becomes survival (which becamse
apparent to all fairly soon), then if would have been better
to lie-to a sea anchor, or run bare poles with a drogue,
they'd have done that (IIRC a few did use drogues for a
while at the peak of the storm).

Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic

DSK

DSK wrote:
Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.

Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh
Hardly a racing vessel but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.

In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.
Better I'd motored away from the storm and say screw the race, it's
just a game no one is at risk unless they put themselfs at risk.

Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.

Joe


DSK

Joe wrote:
DSK wrote:
Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.

Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh
opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu

Hardly a racing vessel but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.

In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.
Better I'd motored away from the storm and say screw the race, it's
just a game no one is at risk unless they put themselfs at risk.

Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.

Joe


DSK

The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Joe wrote:
Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh

opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu


You been paying attention at all? Did you read my post about
rescuing guys off an oil platform in the North Sea? That was
the time waves were ripping 2" welded fittings off the deck.





Hardly a racing vessel

Ya think?
I wonder what the PHRF rating is?

but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Stronger than a U.S. Navy vessel, probably.



Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.


A lot of boats were too far out into the Bass Strait to come
back and anchor. Probably would have if they could have.



In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.


You must not be paying attention, or else your Boosprit
gland is being hyperactive.

These guys weren't dumb. These guys weren't ill-equipped. If
they would have been better off under drogue, they would
have been.

Get it thru your head Joe... the sea is powerful enough to
destroy any vessel. Storms have sunk U.S. Navy warships...
not often, thank goodness. But to think that you're
bulletproof and everybody else is a pussy is very stupid.


Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.


Yeah, like the weather forecast is always 100% accurate.

DSK

DSK wrote:
The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Joe wrote:
Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh

opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu


You been paying attention at all? Did you read my post about
rescuing guys off an oil platform in the North Sea?

Yeah I read it, and I read you think the only vessels made for extreme
weather are submarines. Oil platforms stand still, they do not give, so
they rip. I was paying attention.

Example: When the Ocean Ranger went down in the Hyberina field a
supply boat was on location and suffered no damage, rescued a few guys,
but lost most to hypothermia. There is an old saying in the N. Sea" The
sea is poision, you drink it your going to die, you fall in it your
going to die, and if you work on it your going to die"

That was
the time waves were ripping 2" welded fittings off the deck.





Hardly a racing vessel

Ya think?

Well I take that back, I've raced a many of em..anytime two boats are
going the same way it's a race....right ;0)

I wonder what the PHRF rating is?

but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Stronger than a U.S. Navy vessel, probably.

The fleet tugs are just as stout. Same builders.



Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.


A lot of boats were too far out into the Bass Strait to come
back and anchor. Probably would have if they could have.



In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.


You must not be paying attention, or else your Boosprit
gland is being hyperactive.

These guys weren't dumb. These guys weren't ill-equipped. If
they would have been better off under drogue, they would
have been.

Get it thru your head Joe... the sea is powerful enough to
destroy any vessel. Storms have sunk U.S. Navy warships...
not often, thank goodness. But to think that you're
bulletproof and everybody else is a pussy is very stupid.

I never said anything like that...is your bubbles gland impacted?


Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.


Yeah, like the weather forecast is always 100% accurate.

Doug...it's a game they were playing, some lost. But when people kick
off with sprung planks, fragile bulb keelers, ect for the open ocean in
an area famous for bad weather bad knowing it's going to be 50kt's and
building stuff is going to happen. Even here during the Harvest moon
that we race, it amazes me some of the crap people take offshore, and
some of the idiots that it's plain and clear that the only time they
sail is racing, it's more about gagets, matching suits, and big bucks.
Last Harvest moon a fellow de-masted trying to get out the jetties fer
crikes sake, another about 40 miles south, one ran up on the
beachrunning a rumb line. And like the Hobart the harvest is known for
it's foul weather, mid Oct here is when the really strong northerners
start training thru.

You say these guys are good sailors, and your right for the
billionaires they can buy guys who sail for a living, but the average
millionaires are using friends ect and I'm sure most have less time at
sea..... than the time needed to get a 6 pack ticket.

Joe



DSK

Joe wrote:
Well I take that back, I've raced a many of em..anytime two boats are
going the same way it's a race....right ;0)


Agreed



Stronger than a U.S. Navy vessel, probably.


The fleet tugs are just as stout. Same builders.


I don't know if the fleet tugs are built to the same
standard of having to withstand explosions; but anyway they
would have an advantage in seaworthiness over a warship
because they would not have large heavy radars & weapons on
the deck & superstructure.... better stability.





... But to think that you're
bulletproof and everybody else is a pussy is very stupid.


I never said anything like that...

Yes, you did Joe. Perhaps you weren't paying attention, but
you used that exact word (which is why I used it).



Doug...it's a game they were playing, some lost. But when people kick
off with sprung planks, fragile bulb keelers

"Fragile bulb keelers" that happen to be much stronger than
your boat, yeah.

FWIW I agree that if the WINSTON CHURCHILL was leaking at
the dock, she should not have set off.

... ect for the open ocean in
an area famous for bad weather bad knowing it's going to be 50kt's and
building stuff is going to happen. Even here during the Harvest moon
that we race, it amazes me some of the crap people take offshore, and
some of the idiots that it's plain and clear that the only time they
sail is racing, it's more about gagets, matching suits, and big bucks.

Yes, for some it is. They're easy to spot. But it certainly
is not true of all racing sailors.




You say these guys are good sailors, and your right for the
billionaires they can buy guys who sail for a living

Most of the fleet is middle or working class guys who own
shares of the boat they are sailing on. Perhaps you have
gotten the idea that the Sydney-Hobart race is all maxi
sleds? It isn't.


... but the average
millionaires are using friends ect and I'm sure most have less time at
sea..... than the time needed to get a 6 pack ticket.


Frankly I would rate the seamanship of a guy who regularly
races offshore as *MUCH* higher than that of a guy whose
main claim is that he has a 6-pac license. After all, look
at how bad most people drive, and they all have licenses.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...


And those tremendous forces were due to conditions, not the design or
build of the boats. *Any* vessel would be stressed, any small (by which I
mean 50 tons & less) cruising sailboat probably would have fared worse.

I'm not sure how you can infer this. What's your rationale?

As you pointed out, the closest thing to a crab-crusher in that fleet
sank.

She was a wooden boat, for starters. And apparently some planks were sprung
and leaking prior to the race. She should never have left port.


Most of the skippers in that fleet were sailors of long experience. They
were sailing superbly equipped boats with skilled crews. Once the game
becomes survival (which becamse apparent to all fairly soon), then if
would have been better to lie-to a sea anchor, or run bare poles with a
drogue, they'd have done that (IIRC a few did use drogues for a while at
the peak of the storm).

I'm doubtful that even lying ahull or riding a sea anchor would have
provided much benefit in a storm of that magnitude.


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally considered a
gung-ho racing tactic

But an infinitely preferable survival tactic. I'd have been pulling for the
cut and run option, has I been aboard.

Max