Multihull Question
 

You just aquired a Hobie 17. This boat does not
have a jib--just a mains'l. The fellow who gave it
to you compained he could not tack the boat.

What was he likely doing wrong?

What is the best way to tack the boat?

Multihull Question
 

So you don't know the answer????

OzOne wrote:
On 18 Sep 2006 19:38:30 -0700, scribbled
thusly:

You just aquired a Hobie 17. This boat does not
have a jib--just a mains'l. The fellow who gave it
to you compained he could not tack the boat.

What was he likely doing wrong?

He was sailing it like a mono

What is the best way to tack the boat?

Like a multi!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Multihull Question
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
OzOne wrote:
On 18 Sep 2006 19:38:30 -0700, scribbled
thusly:

You just aquired a Hobie 17. This boat does not
have a jib--just a mains'l. The fellow who gave it
to you compained he could not tack the boat.

What was he likely doing wrong?

He was sailing it like a mono

What is the best way to tack the boat?

Like a multi!



So you don't know the answer????

Oz gave the right answer. You steer the boat through the wind. If you
throw the helm over, ala monohull, the rudders stall and stop the boat.

Max

Multihull Question
 

wrote:

What is the best way to tack the boat?

The rudder?

Multihull Question
 

1) Get a jib. :-)
2) Don't rush the tack, since the boat will likely stall (unlike a mono).
3) Don't worry too much if it starts to back in the middle of the tack.
It'll recover, and away you'll go.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
You just aquired a Hobie 17. This boat does not
have a jib--just a mains'l. The fellow who gave it
to you compained he could not tack the boat.

What was he likely doing wrong?

What is the best way to tack the boat?

Multihull Question
 

wrote:
So you don't know the answer????

So you are an idiot and don't know Usenet protocol of clipping and
responding on the aft? When will you ever learn, if not now?

LP (thinking everyone who top-posts is an idiot!)



OzOne wrote:
On 18 Sep 2006 19:38:30 -0700, scribbled
thusly:

You just aquired a Hobie 17. This boat does not
have a jib--just a mains'l. The fellow who gave it
to you compained he could not tack the boat.

What was he likely doing wrong?

He was sailing it like a mono

What is the best way to tack the boat?

Like a multi!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Multihull Question
 

OzOne wrote:
Yeah, I do, but a simple explanation is very difficult unless you are
actually in a position to demonstrate


Oh c'mon, at least you can discuss some of the differences
handling a cat and a mono.

Like (as others have mentioned) using the rudders gradually
instead of just pushing the helm over. Using the mainsheet
to help turn (smart monohull sailors do this too). etc etc

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Multihull Question
 

"DSK" wrote

OzOne wrote:
Yeah, I do, but a simple explanation is very difficult unless you are
actually in a position to demonstrate


Oh c'mon, at least you can discuss some of the differences handling a cat
and a mono.

Like (as others have mentioned) using the rudders gradually instead of
just pushing the helm over. Using the mainsheet to help turn (smart
monohull sailors do this too). etc etc

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug since Oz can't answer the question, maybe you should.

Multihull Question
 

DSK wrote:


Oh c'mon, at least you can discuss some of the differences handling a
cat and a mono.

Like (as others have mentioned) using the rudders gradually instead of
just pushing the helm over. Using the mainsheet to help turn (smart
monohull sailors do this too). etc etc

It's really not that different than what you do with a monohull, *if
you're doing it right*. Yes, with a monohull you can throw the tiller
over hard and spin the boat in it's own length, but that's not the most
efficient way to tack because you lose a lot of boatspeed. A cat just
punishes you a lot more for stalling the rudder. It's the same principle.


//Walt

Multihull Question
 

Multihull Question
 

wrote
| You just aquired a Hobie 17. This boat does not
| have a jib--just a mains'l. The fellow who gave it
| to you compained he could not tack the boat.
| What was he likely doing wrong?
| What is the best way to tack the boat?



Hobies are hard to tack without getting irons. It's because they're very light for
their size. They stop before you know it when bow to the wind. You have to bear off
a little if your pinching and get your speed up. Then you can tack. But, don't dilly dally
around about it. You'll get in irons for sure. The best way to tack a Hobie is one way,
smartly.

Cheers,
Ellen

Multihull Question
 

Walt wrote:
.... Since most cats have
signigicant weather helm, you can usually just let the tiller go slack
in your hand and the boat will round up nicely.


I disagree with this statement. Since there are so-o
freakin' many Hobie 16s made over the years, perhaps they
tilt the majority of catamarans toward the "heavy weather
helm, tack poorly" axis. But if you look at all the
different type of catamarans, especially ones designed since
the mid-1970s, fewer and fewer have very hard weather helm.


.... Once you
pass head to wind, ease it so that it doesn't fight you through the rest
of the turn.


IMHO that's the single biggest key to tacking a multi, and
it doesn't hurt when tacking a monohull. Ease the main or
drop the traveler.

DSK

Multihull Question
 

It's so nice that you & Donal are so close.

PDW

Lady Pilot wrote:
wrote:
So you don't know the answer????

So you are an idiot and don't know Usenet protocol of clipping and
responding on the aft? When will you ever learn, if not now?

LP (thinking everyone who top-posts is an idiot!)



OzOne wrote:
On 18 Sep 2006 19:38:30 -0700, scribbled
thusly:

You just aquired a Hobie 17. This boat does not
have a jib--just a mains'l. The fellow who gave it
to you compained he could not tack the boat.

What was he likely doing wrong?

He was sailing it like a mono

What is the best way to tack the boat?

Like a multi!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Multihull Question
 

Peter,
Take it from a H17 owner - these are a pain to tack w/o a jib. A
couple of the people got it basically right. The key is to ease the
main as you come head to wind. The windage is high on these boats and
the mass of the craft is low so it slows down real fast when pointing
into the wind. Also the center of effort is well aft so the boat will
'weather vane' dead into the wind if you don't ease the main.

My technique was to:

1: keep the mail close hauled as you head up into the wind
2: release the main as you come through the wind. I like to 'help' the
main ease out as the boat rounds over to the new tack but don't
backwind the sail
3: fall off to a close reach
4: gradually sheet in the main. The boat will point up as you do this
(no matter what you do with the rudders) - the sail has more influence
on headding as these low boat speeds
5: as boat speed increases the rudders will bite again and if you
played it right you will now be on your desired close hauled course.

Just remember that in an H17 w/o a jib that at low boat speeds that the
main will be the more importand 'rudder'

Easy enough, right?

After 5 years perfecting my tacks on my H17 I installed a jib kit
this year. Once the challenge is gone tacking a H17 w/o a jib is just
a pain.

Enjoy learning a new style of sailing :)

Bill

Multihull Question
 

OzOne wrote:
Walt scribbled thusly:
wrote:


You just aquired a Hobie 17.
What is the best way to tack the boat?

1. Make sure you have decent boat speed before the tack. i.e. you're not
pinching. That may mean footing off a bit if necessary

2. Easy with the tiller! You want a big wide turn, not a sharp angle. If
you stall the tiller the boat will stop. Since most cats have
signigicant weather helm, you can usually just let the tiller go slack
in your hand and the boat will round up nicely. No need to push it over.

3. Trim in the main to help the boat turn up into the wind. Once you
pass head to wind, ease it so that it doesn't fight you through the rest
of the turn.

4. Keep turning until you are on a close reach, then trim in the main
and sail off.

5. If you do get stuck in irons, center the tiller, backwind the main
(on the opposite side to where it was before you tacked) and once you
start moving backwards push the tiller *slightly* the opposite way that
you had it to tack. The boat will back around to the new tack. GOTO 4.


Hey,, you do know what you're talking about..except for the weather
helm bit.

Well, my sample space is rather small when it comes to cats. Mostly
Hobies of varying lengths with the odd Prindle or Nacra on rare
occasions. Every cat I've ever sailed had significant weather helm.
Teeny or no jib coupled with a giant roach usually adds up to a lot of
weather helm.

Maybe I should have said most small beach cats have significant weather
helm? Anyway it's an accurate statement when applied to the boat in
question, the Hobie 17

Never sailed one of them ginormous condomarans, so I can't speak for
that experience. I'm curious which cats have little or no weather helm
- care to give an example?

//Walt

Multihull Question
 

Hey,, you do know what you're talking about..except for the weather
helm bit.


Walt wrote:
Well, my sample space is rather small when it comes to cats. Mostly
Hobies of varying lengths with the odd Prindle or Nacra on rare
occasions. Every cat I've ever sailed had significant weather helm.
Teeny or no jib coupled with a giant roach usually adds up to a lot of
weather helm.


Faster boats in general have less weather helm... are you
sure you're not just thinking of helm load at speed, this
can get rather large if the rudder blades aren't raked properly.



Maybe I should have said most small beach cats have significant weather
helm? Anyway it's an accurate statement when applied to the boat in
question, the Hobie 17


Actually, it's not. The H17 is a rather well mannered cat
IMHO, except that it doesn't have a lot of reserve bouyancy
(still, has more that the old H16).


Never sailed one of them ginormous condomarans, so I can't speak for
that experience. I'm curious which cats have little or no weather helm
- care to give an example?


All the Nacras should be rather well balanced on the helm,
by which I mean that you should pretty much be able to let
go of the tiller and have the boat go straight. The Isotope
is worth mentioning. I raced Hobie 18s too for a while and
they handle pretty well. Almost any cat with
daggerboards.... the new plastic Hobies aren't bad either,
even though they have skegs

If you get a chance to skipper a decently set-up Tornado,
jump on it. Those are the best sailing cats I know of;
perhaps not quite as fast as the newest top-gun designs but
heck the Tornado is pushing 50! I haven't sailed the Intra
20 but it looks like they steer nicely & tack readily (of
course, the guys sailing them are pretty good and make it
look easy).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Multihull Question
 

OzOne wrote:
Walt scribbled thusly:

It's the same principle.


Yep, you're going one way and want to get going the other way as
quickly as possible.

Heh. I guess it depends on what you mean by "quickly". Do you want to
change diriction as quickly as possible? Then slam the tiller over
hard. Do you want to change direction and be moving quickly after
you've done so? Then make a nice wide turn, taking your time to change
direction but keeping as much boat speed as possible.

Focus on keeping boat speed, not on minimizing the amount of time it
takes to turn.

///Walt

Multihull Question
 

DSK wrote:

Faster boats in general have less weather helm...

Huh. And all this time I thought the cause and effect worked the other
way - boats with less weather helm are faster. You learn something new
everyday. (c:

which cats have little or no weather
helm - care to give an example?


All the Nacras should be rather well balanced on the helm, by which I
mean that you should pretty much be able to let go of the tiller and
have the boat go straight. The Isotope is worth mentioning. I raced
Hobie 18s too for a while and they handle pretty well. Almost any cat
with daggerboards.... the new plastic Hobies aren't bad either, even
though they have skegs

Ok. Thanks. It's been a few years since I last sailed a H17, so maybe
I'm remembering it wrong.


If you get a chance to skipper a decently set-up Tornado, jump on it.
Those are the best sailing cats I know of; perhaps not quite as fast as
the newest top-gun designs but heck the Tornado is pushing 50!

Yeah, well, so am I. Wanna make something of it?


I haven't
sailed the Intra 20 but it looks like they steer nicely & tack readily
(of course, the guys sailing them are pretty good and make it look easy)

//Walt

Multihull Question
 

Faster boats in general have less weather helm...



Walt wrote:
Huh. And all this time I thought the cause and effect worked the other
way - boats with less weather helm are faster. You learn something new
everyday. (c:


Look at it this way... two seperate things going on here.
One is the force generated by the helm, which must be
couonteracted by the helmsman and feels like the tiller
pushing against his hand(s). The other is the difference
between the angle of the rudder and the direction the boat
is turning (or when going straight). A boat's steering &
foils can be set up so that large angles don't generate much
force; or so that as the angle gets larger, the force
increases proportionally (a very nice characteristic IMHO);
some boats have both.

Exmples: a Melges 24 is too squirrely to let go of the
tiller for a second, but there is very little force
developed by the helm felt by the helmsman. It also will not
require very much (if any) angle applied to the rudder to
make it go straight ahead.

A Cape Cod catboat will have both generate great force on
the helm and require a large angle (relatively large, more
than a couple degrees) on the rudder in order to go
straight. Yet if the helm is locked in place, the helmsman
can take his hands off it... go below & make a cup of coffee...

Which of those two is faster?

Still not a great explanation but at least it doesn't leave
a bunch of assumtions hanging in the air like earlier posts.


If you get a chance to skipper a decently set-up Tornado, jump on it.
Those are the best sailing cats I know of; perhaps not quite as fast
as the newest top-gun designs but heck the Tornado is pushing 50!


Walt wrote:
Yeah, well, so am I. Wanna make something of it?


Sounds like you'd be a good match.

DSK

Multihull Question
 

Why couldn't you say that right up front?

OzOne wrote in

Yep, carve the turn, don't chuck it around.
May require a little main down and footing off just for a second to
build speed thru the tack pulling the main up as you go.
Some haul traveller up past centre in the turn to help push the bows
around.
Main down after head to wind, build and head up.

Any nonsense about heavy weather helm is just a sign of someone who
cannot tune either a rig or rudder balance by adjusting the blade
position...we are talking off beach cats..no?

Multihull Question
 

Good answer Bill. This is, I'm sure what happend to the
prior owner of my recently acquired Hobie 17.

He also could not right it by himself--at 150 pounds he
claimed he was not big enough. And he had difficulty launching
the boat by himself.

wrote

Peter,
Take it from a H17 owner - these are a pain to tack w/o a jib. A
couple of the people got it basically right. The key is to ease the
main as you come head to wind. The windage is high on these boats and
the mass of the craft is low so it slows down real fast when pointing
into the wind. Also the center of effort is well aft so the boat will
'weather vane' dead into the wind if you don't ease the main.

My technique was to:

1: keep the mail close hauled as you head up into the wind
2: release the main as you come through the wind. I like to 'help' the
main ease out as the boat rounds over to the new tack but don't
backwind the sail
3: fall off to a close reach
4: gradually sheet in the main. The boat will point up as you do this
(no matter what you do with the rudders) - the sail has more influence
on headding as these low boat speeds
5: as boat speed increases the rudders will bite again and if you
played it right you will now be on your desired close hauled course.

Just remember that in an H17 w/o a jib that at low boat speeds that the
main will be the more importand 'rudder'

Multihull Question
 

1 point for you Doug for bringing out this factor first.

What was so hard about that question? Everyone beat around
the bush and didn't cover the main point like you did Doug.

I'll give honorable mention to Walt and award one point to him
for writing a very nice summary

"DSK" wrote

IMHO that's the single biggest key to tacking a multi, and it doesn't hurt
when tacking a monohull. Ease the main or drop the traveler.

Multihull Question
 

Nice answer Walt. 1 point to you for a great summary.

"Walt" wrote

You just aquired a Hobie 17. What is the best way to tack the boat?

1. Make sure you have decent boat speed before the tack. i.e. you're not
pinching. That may mean footing off a bit if necessary

2. Easy with the tiller! You want a big wide turn, not a sharp angle. If
you stall the tiller the boat will stop. Since most cats have
signigicant weather helm, you can usually just let the tiller go slack in
your hand and the boat will round up nicely. No need to push it over.

3. Trim in the main to help the boat turn up into the wind. Once you
pass head to wind, ease it so that it doesn't fight you through the rest
of the turn.

4. Keep turning until you are on a close reach, then trim in the main and
sail off.

5. If you do get stuck in irons, center the tiller, backwind the main
(on the opposite side to where it was before you tacked) and once you
start moving backwards push the tiller *slightly* the opposite way that
you had it to tack. The boat will back around to the new tack. GOTO 4.
question, the Hobie 17

//Walt

Multihull Question
 

I can get my H17 up with just body weight most days but it can take
some time especially in a stiff brease. Bringing the boat into the
correct orientation to the wind takes some time and a few mis-judgments
will leave you quite tired. So, I got a righting bag to ensure that I
have enough weight to right the boat. Just a little insurance for this
single-handed cat. I recommend that anyone that sails a cat of this
size single-handed get one.


Bart Senior wrote:
Good answer Bill. This is, I'm sure what happend to the
prior owner of my recently acquired Hobie 17.

He also could not right it by himself--at 150 pounds he
claimed he was not big enough. And he had difficulty launching
the boat by himself.

wrote

Peter,
Take it from a H17 owner - these are a pain to tack w/o a jib. A
couple of the people got it basically right. The key is to ease the
main as you come head to wind. The windage is high on these boats and
the mass of the craft is low so it slows down real fast when pointing
into the wind. Also the center of effort is well aft so the boat will
'weather vane' dead into the wind if you don't ease the main.

My technique was to:

1: keep the mail close hauled as you head up into the wind
2: release the main as you come through the wind. I like to 'help' the
main ease out as the boat rounds over to the new tack but don't
backwind the sail
3: fall off to a close reach
4: gradually sheet in the main. The boat will point up as you do this
(no matter what you do with the rudders) - the sail has more influence
on headding as these low boat speeds
5: as boat speed increases the rudders will bite again and if you
played it right you will now be on your desired close hauled course.

Just remember that in an H17 w/o a jib that at low boat speeds that the
main will be the more importand 'rudder'

Multihull Question
 

Thanks for the info Bill.

Bill wrote:
I can get my H17 up with just body weight most days but it can take
some time especially in a stiff brease. Bringing the boat into the
correct orientation to the wind takes some time and a few mis-judgments
will leave you quite tired. So, I got a righting bag to ensure that I
have enough weight to right the boat. Just a little insurance for this
single-handed cat. I recommend that anyone that sails a cat of this
size single-handed get one.

Multihull Question
 

What is a righting bag?

Scotty, former H-14 sailor.


"Bill" wrote in message
oups.com..
..
I can get my H17 up with just body weight most days but it
can take
some time especially in a stiff brease. Bringing the boat
into the
correct orientation to the wind takes some time and a few
mis-judgments
will leave you quite tired. So, I got a righting bag to
ensure that I
have enough weight to right the boat. Just a little
insurance for this
single-handed cat. I recommend that anyone that sails a
cat of this
size single-handed get one.


Bart Senior wrote:
Good answer Bill. This is, I'm sure what happend to the
prior owner of my recently acquired Hobie 17.

He also could not right it by himself--at 150 pounds he
claimed he was not big enough. And he had difficulty
launching
the boat by himself.

wrote

Peter,
Take it from a H17 owner - these are a pain to tack
w/o a jib. A
couple of the people got it basically right. The key
is to ease the
main as you come head to wind. The windage is high on
these boats and
the mass of the craft is low so it slows down real
fast when pointing
into the wind. Also the center of effort is well aft
so the boat will
'weather vane' dead into the wind if you don't ease
the main.

My technique was to:

1: keep the mail close hauled as you head up into the
wind
2: release the main as you come through the wind. I
like to 'help' the
main ease out as the boat rounds over to the new tack
but don't
backwind the sail
3: fall off to a close reach
4: gradually sheet in the main. The boat will point
up as you do this
(no matter what you do with the rudders) - the sail
has more influence
on headding as these low boat speeds
5: as boat speed increases the rudders will bite again
and if you
played it right you will now be on your desired close
hauled course.

Just remember that in an H17 w/o a jib that at low
boat speeds that the
main will be the more importand 'rudder'

Multihull Question
 

Scotty instead of me explaining here's a link to the page in the
murrays catalog. I have the one in the upper left.

http://murrays.com/archive/36-37.pdf


Scotty wrote:
What is a righting bag?

Scotty, former H-14 sailor.


"Bill" wrote in message
oups.com..
.
I can get my H17 up with just body weight most days but it
can take
some time especially in a stiff brease. Bringing the boat
into the
correct orientation to the wind takes some time and a few
mis-judgments
will leave you quite tired. So, I got a righting bag to
ensure that I
have enough weight to right the boat. Just a little
insurance for this
single-handed cat. I recommend that anyone that sails a
cat of this
size single-handed get one.


Bart Senior wrote:
Good answer Bill. This is, I'm sure what happend to the
prior owner of my recently acquired Hobie 17.

He also could not right it by himself--at 150 pounds he
claimed he was not big enough. And he had difficulty
launching
the boat by himself.

wrote

Peter,
Take it from a H17 owner - these are a pain to tack
w/o a jib. A
couple of the people got it basically right. The key
is to ease the
main as you come head to wind. The windage is high on
these boats and
the mass of the craft is low so it slows down real
fast when pointing
into the wind. Also the center of effort is well aft
so the boat will
'weather vane' dead into the wind if you don't ease
the main.

My technique was to:

1: keep the mail close hauled as you head up into the
wind
2: release the main as you come through the wind. I
like to 'help' the
main ease out as the boat rounds over to the new tack
but don't
backwind the sail
3: fall off to a close reach
4: gradually sheet in the main. The boat will point
up as you do this
(no matter what you do with the rudders) - the sail
has more influence
on headding as these low boat speeds
5: as boat speed increases the rudders will bite again
and if you
played it right you will now be on your desired close
hauled course.

Just remember that in an H17 w/o a jib that at low
boat speeds that the
main will be the more importand 'rudder'