My seamanship question #6
 

Capt. JG said he sailed backwards for an hour. If another sailboat was sailing directly
toward JGs transom would it be an overtaking situation? And would the other sailboat have
to give way. How would it know if JG was sailing backwards or just very slow forward.


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Capt. JG said he sailed backwards for an hour. If another sailboat was sailing directly
toward JGs transom would it be an overtaking situation? And would the other sailboat have
to give way. How would it know if JG was sailing backwards or just very slow forward.


Cheers,
Ellen

Overtaking is overtaking no matter what situation it is....

My seamanship question #6
 

This is too dumb to even consider. Do you want to rethink your question... I
suggest it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...
Capt. JG said he sailed backwards for an hour. If another sailboat was
sailing directly
toward JGs transom would it be an overtaking situation? And would the
other sailboat have
to give way. How would it know if JG was sailing backwards or just very
slow forward.


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Capt. JG said he sailed backwards for an hour. If another sailboat was sailing directly
toward JGs transom would it be an overtaking situation? And would the other sailboat have
to give way. How would it know if JG was sailing backwards or just very slow forward.


You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back. From
the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
(And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
to be sailed backwards.

This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
get reversed? For large ships, the common practice is make passing
signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
you're on?

My seamanship question #6
 

katy wrote:
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Capt. JG said he sailed backwards for an hour. If another
sailboat was sailing directly
toward JGs transom would it be an overtaking situation? And would the
other sailboat have
to give way. How would it know if JG was sailing backwards or just
very slow forward.


Cheers,
Ellen

Overtaking is overtaking no matter what situation it is....
Otherwise it would be undertaking?

My seamanship question #6
 

That's quite elevating...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
katy wrote:
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Capt. JG said he sailed backwards for an hour. If another sailboat
was sailing directly
toward JGs transom would it be an overtaking situation? And would the
other sailboat have
to give way. How would it know if JG was sailing backwards or just very
slow forward.


Cheers,
Ellen

Overtaking is overtaking no matter what situation it is....
Otherwise it would be undertaking?

My seamanship question #6
 

Capt. JG wrote:
That's quite elevating...

Not if there was an undertow....

My seamanship question #6
 

That's probably the highlight....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
That's quite elevating...

Not if there was an undertow....

My seamanship question #6
 

"Capt. JG" wrote
| This is too dumb to even consider. Do you want to rethink your question... I
| suggest it.


Your the one who's dumb... Not me!
I wouldn't have to rethink anything if you didn't lie. You said you sailed backwards for about an
hour. You didn't sail backwards. You sailed forward. You were just slower than the current you were
going into bow first. People on land who looked at you noticed it looked like you were going backwards.
That doesn't mean you were *sailing* backwards. You lied or misspoke so don't call me dumb....
If you were telling the truth you'd have to be actually sailing backwards. You could do this if you put
a jib on the backstay. Then the stern of your boat would go through the water first. That's why I asked
about the confusion this would cause to the colregs. Say you were sailing backwards with a jib on your
backstay at night. Then a faster sailboat coming up on your stern would see your stern light. He would
think he was overtaking you. He would think he had to give way. It would look like he was overtaking you.
It would really be a meeting situation.
So don't dis me for being confused. Blame yourself for saying you sailed backwards when you didn't
sail backwards at all. And you teach sailing? I bet your students are all confused. I'd demand my money
back if I got you for an instructor. Your rude and your arrogant and you confuse. You should clarify.
Jeff is a much better instructor. He thinks I'm dumb, too. But at least he's got patience and explains
things. And *he* doesn't lie. He instructs because he wants people to know how. You instruct so you can
gratify your big ego. I don't think you care about your students unless your different to them than you
are to me. But, I doubt it very much.....


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards. Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on. If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward. His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of a question.
When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards. Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on. If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward. His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of a question.
When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote
(deleted repeat.)


Sorry. sometimes they get stuck and won't send. When I send it again then it sends twice.
I e-mailed the new server and they said they keep getting spam attacks and other abuse which shuts
them down. They shut down twice yesterday. I guess I can't complain. At least they're free....

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"katy" wrote in message
| Overtaking is overtaking no matter what situation it is....


Overtaking is also what drug addicts do. :-) And the IRS and greedy fishermen and
aggressive drivers.


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote


Say you were sailing backwards with a jib on your
backstay at night. Then a faster sailboat coming up on
your stern would see your stern light.


besides being really dumb, that would be illegal.

Scotty

My seamanship question #6
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards. Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on. If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
side'? When are you on a port tack?"


| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward. His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
It was funny. I actually smiled.



| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of a question.

I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
be his student?

When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?


| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

My seamanship question #6
 

"Jeff" wrote in message

| Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
| thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

Oh. (face turns red)

| Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
| merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
| overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
| sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
| side'? When are you on a port tack?"

That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

| Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
| It was funny. I actually smiled.

Zing! Well, shut my mouth. It went right over my head. I just got this mental picture of him really
sailing backwards when instructing some students to show how it could be done. Somehow I don't
find Capt. JG very funny. Mean's more the word comes to mind.

| I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
| be his student?

When Hell freezes over. :-)

| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Oh. (face turns red)
you should post a picture


That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

But which side is the port side when you're going backwards?

....


| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

Read the International version of the Rule 34 carefully and try again.

BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's anything that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under 34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll usually respond
that I agree.



| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Its the same question as before - does the port and starboard side
change if you're going backwards?

My seamanship question #6
 

You're dumb. Feel better?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| This is too dumb to even consider. Do you want to rethink your
question... I
| suggest it.


Your the one who's dumb... Not me!
I wouldn't have to rethink anything if you didn't lie. You said you
sailed backwards for about an
hour. You didn't sail backwards. You sailed forward. You were just slower
than the current you were
going into bow first. People on land who looked at you noticed it looked
like you were going backwards.
That doesn't mean you were *sailing* backwards. You lied or misspoke
so don't call me dumb....
If you were telling the truth you'd have to be actually sailing
backwards. You could do this if you put
a jib on the backstay. Then the stern of your boat would go through the
water first. That's why I asked
about the confusion this would cause to the colregs. Say you were sailing
backwards with a jib on your
backstay at night. Then a faster sailboat coming up on your stern would
see your stern light. He would
think he was overtaking you. He would think he had to give way. It would
look like he was overtaking you.
It would really be a meeting situation.
So don't dis me for being confused. Blame yourself for saying you
sailed backwards when you didn't
sail backwards at all. And you teach sailing? I bet your students are all
confused. I'd demand my money
back if I got you for an instructor. Your rude and your arrogant and you
confuse. You should clarify.
Jeff is a much better instructor. He thinks I'm dumb, too. But at
least he's got patience and explains
things. And *he* doesn't lie. He instructs because he wants people to know
how. You instruct so you can
gratify your big ego. I don't think you care about your students unless
your different to them than you
are to me. But, I doubt it very much.....


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

She's very stressed out, obviously.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote | You seem to still be uncertain about how
current should be considered. | In Jon's case, he was making way through
the water forward, but the | current was pulling him (and your other
hypothetical boat) back. Then why did he lie and say he sailed
backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail
backwards. Please read my answer to his usual snooty comment.

Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or thought
about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking |
situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking | Jon.
Even though its possible that they are going in opposite | directions
over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation. | (And, as
sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward
gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on.
If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an
overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern light it would
*appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read
it. I don't want to repeat it.

Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered overtaken,
what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the sailboat
rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port side'? When
are you on a port tack?"

| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots |
sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done |
this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were |
to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward.
His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke. It
was funny. I actually smiled.



| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are |
maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules | get
reversed? Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would
rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides
of a question.

I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to be
his student?

When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the
place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be
confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing | signals assuming
your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld | in the courts.
However, this it is also "special circumstances" | because
maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack |
you're on?

Exactly!

Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are together
on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by backing the
sail, are they on the same tack or different?

My seamanship question #6
 

Oh? That's it? So, then I must not have lied. Don't see any apology do we...
and, don't worry, you're not qualified to be my or anyone else's student.
You first need a brain...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Jeff" wrote in message

| Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
| thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

Oh. (face turns red)

| Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
| merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
| overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
| sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
| side'? When are you on a port tack?"

That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the
boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

| Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
| It was funny. I actually smiled.

Zing! Well, shut my mouth. It went right over my head. I just got this
mental picture of him really
sailing backwards when instructing some students to show how it could be
done. Somehow I don't
find Capt. JG very funny. Mean's more the word comes to mind.

| I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
| be his student?

When Hell freezes over. :-)

| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only.
Rule 34 says it.

| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's
attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition
also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack
and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

You explained nothing. You just ran off at the mouth.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS
really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards.
Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward
gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on.
If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking
situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post
to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward.
His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather
dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of
a question.
When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the
place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be
confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

So, you're clueless about posting also.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote
(deleted repeat.)


Sorry. sometimes they get stuck and won't send. When I send it again
then it sends twice.
I e-mailed the new server and they said they keep getting spam attacks and
other abuse which shuts
them down. They shut down twice yesterday. I guess I can't complain. At
least they're free....

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

I think I'm going to do it and tell the CG that Ellen told me it was ok.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote


Say you were sailing backwards with a jib on your
backstay at night. Then a faster sailboat coming up on
your stern would see your stern light.


besides being really dumb, that would be illegal.

Scotty

My seamanship question #6
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Oh. (face turns red)
you should post a picture


That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the
port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

But which side is the port side when you're going
backwards?

#12, a , lll;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to
windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the
other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard
side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.






...


| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for
motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

Read the International version of the Rule 34 carefully
and try again.

BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's anything
that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under
34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll
usually respond
that I agree.


How do you respond?

Scotty

My seamanship question #6
 

Scotty wrote:
But which side is the port side when you're going
backwards?

#12, a , lll;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to
windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the
other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard
side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.


Jeeze, people keep repeating the rules. I have a zillion copies of
the rules. The question is, when you're going backwards, does port
and starboard switch sides. Does the definition depend on the
direction of the motion, or the location of the bow?

....

BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's anything
that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under
34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll
usually respond
that I agree.


How do you respond?

depends on what I've had to eat.

My seamanship question #6
 

"Jeff" wrote
| Its the same question as before - does the port and starboard side
| change if you're going backwards?


No. Port and starboard is fixed. It's part of the boat. That's why there's a green light on the starboard side
and a red light on the port side. You have a right hand and you have a left hand. If you walk backwards your right
hand is still your right hand and your left hand is still your left hand.
Rule 34 says in the first sentence says "a power driven vessel underway." The second paragraph says
"the whistle signals prescribed in paragraph (a). It means prescribed for power driven vessels because that's
all they talk about in the first paragraph. Nowhere does it say a sailboat has to do whistle signals. It's only
talking about power boats.

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"Capt. JG" wrote

| Oh? That's it? So, then I must not have lied. Don't see any apology do we...
| and, don't worry, you're not qualified to be my or anyone else's student.
| You first need a brain...


A person has to have a brain to apologize. I guess you get none from me. I'd like to apologize but I can't
because I don't have a brain.
God bless you, captain. (I refuse to write what I'd really like to say - it would be un-Christian of me.)

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"Capt. JG" wrote
| So, you're clueless about posting also.


God bless you, captain....

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Scotty wrote:
But which side is the port side when you're going
backwards?

#12, a , lll;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel
to
windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the
other vessel has the wind on the port or on the
starboard
side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.


Jeeze, people keep repeating the rules. I have a zillion
copies of
the rules. The question is, when you're going backwards,
does port
and starboard switch sides. Does the definition depend on
the
direction of the motion, or the location of the bow?

My thought was that it has to be the direction of motion,
otherwise it gets too confusing for the normal sailor. The
reason I copied rule lll, if you're approaching some goof
ball sailing backwards and can't figure out which tack he's
on, then ''she shall keep out of the way of the other.
''.



BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's
anything
that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under
34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll
usually respond
that I agree.


How do you respond?

depends on what I've had to eat.

Lets say Tuna.

Scotty

My seamanship question #6
 

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...

"Jeff" wrote
| Its the same question as before - does the port and
starboard side
| change if you're going backwards?


No. Port and starboard is fixed. It's part of the
boat. That's why there's a green light on the starboard side
and a red light on the port side. You have a right hand
and you have a left hand. If you walk backwards your right
hand is still your right hand and your left hand is still
your left hand.


You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Scotty

My seamanship question #6
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
| Its the same question as before - does the port and starboard side
| change if you're going backwards?


No. Port and starboard is fixed. It's part of the boat. That's why there's a green light on the starboard side
and a red light on the port side. You have a right hand and you have a left hand. If you walk backwards your right
hand is still your right hand and your left hand is still your left hand.

If the boat sides are fixed, then it means that two boats going side
by side on broad reaches, but one going backwards, are on different
tacks. In a race, that could be a huge tactical advantage. I doubt
its allowed, but its been so long that I've studied the racing rules
that I don't know under which rule it would fall.

As I said, for ships, the sides in effect get reversed, and there have
been rulings on the topic.

Rule 34 says in the first sentence says "a power driven vessel underway." The second paragraph says
"the whistle signals prescribed in paragraph (a). It means prescribed for power driven vessels because that's
all they talk about in the first paragraph. Nowhere does it say a sailboat has to do whistle signals. It's only
talking about power boats.

Nope. Rule 34(a) clearly specifies power boat for its situation, but
that is missing from 34(c) in the International rules. There is no
reason to presume that the restriction mentioned in (a) applies to
(c). Also, if you look to Intl 9(e)(i) there is nothing that
restricts the rule to powerboats. Clearly, the writers of the Inland
rules did not think this was appropriate for sailboats, so they
scattered "powerboat" through the text.

My seamanship question #6
 

Scotty wrote:

You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Do they have sets of nav lights for each direction? I'd have said that port
and starboard are fixed with respect to the bow, but maybe craft like these
are exceptions.


--
Capt Scumbalino

My seamanship question #6
 

At least you admit it. Good for you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote

| Oh? That's it? So, then I must not have lied. Don't see any apology do
we...
| and, don't worry, you're not qualified to be my or anyone else's
student.
| You first need a brain...


A person has to have a brain to apologize. I guess you get none from
me. I'd like to apologize but I can't
because I don't have a brain.
God bless you, captain. (I refuse to write what I'd really like to
say - it would be un-Christian of me.)

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

Which one?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| So, you're clueless about posting also.


God bless you, captain....

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #6
 

Capt. Scumbalino wrote:
Scotty wrote:

You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Do they have sets of nav lights for each direction? I'd have said that port
and starboard are fixed with respect to the bow, but maybe craft like these
are exceptions.


Yes, there are two sets of running lights, two helm stations, etc. I
rode on such a ferry a few weeks ago, between Woods Hole and Vineyard
Haven.

My seamanship question #6
 

Jeff wrote:
Capt. Scumbalino wrote:
Scotty wrote:

You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Do they have sets of nav lights for each direction? I'd have said that
port
and starboard are fixed with respect to the bow, but maybe craft like
these
are exceptions.


Yes, there are two sets of running lights, two helm stations, etc. I
rode on such a ferry a few weeks ago, between Woods Hole and Vineyard
Haven.

I looked for a reference and its turns out the boat I was on,
Islander, is being replaced. Here's the current fleet:
http://web1.steamshipauthority.com/s...arthasvineyard

Here's the press release for the new ferry. You can see the two
bridges in the picture.
http://web1.steamshipauthority.com/s...ome_launch.pdf

We spent a week on a mooring a few hundreds yards from the ferry dock,
so we saw these boats coming and going hourly. When the Katama does
its turnaround, all the boats on that side of the mooring field get
spun around by the prop wash. Its a fun way to meet your neighbors.

My seamanship question #6
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Capt. Scumbalino wrote:
Scotty wrote:

You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Do they have sets of nav lights for each direction? I'd
have said that port
and starboard are fixed with respect to the bow, but
maybe craft like these
are exceptions.


Yes, there are two sets of running lights, two helm
stations, etc. I
rode on such a ferry a few weeks ago, between Woods Hole
and Vineyard
Haven.

Right, so port / starboard would be determined by which
direction she's headed.

Scotty