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On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 13:20:31 -0400, DSK wrote:

You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world.

Fiberglass can be repaired with stuff from Lowes. You don't
even need to be in port. You don't need a welding machine.
Patches or rolls of fiberglass cloth & jugs of resin are a
lot easier to stow than spare steel plates, and they are
much easier to form into the desired shape.

Frank Boettcher wrote:
Having made my living for a while as a welder (on offshore deck
sections) and having done a lot of glass work and chased a lot of core
rot, I'd say it depends on the type of repair. If I needed to repair
a holed hull, steel gets the vote for easier and more reliable.

Since it takes years of specialized study & practice to
become a welder, why would you say it's easier?

Not if you have a reasonable aptitude for the craft. Most production
welders in the yard I worked at were at the 3G level in less than four
months, that is they could pass a vertical up test 1" plate cut and
stripped, bent 180 degrees around a mandrel without separation of the
weld from the base metal. However, there was a shortage and we were
pushed hard to test quickly. I tested to 5G (around a fixed
horizontal pipe) and had certifications in SMAW, GMAW, FCAW, SAW,
and GTAW processes in less than a year (note, not all those processes
suitable to 5G position).

Mor reliable... depends on your perspective I guess. I've
done a lot of QA work on pressure vessel welding. Most of
the best welders I've worked with are bikers... don't know
why that is.

And my ASME code stamp is on quite a few pressure vessels. I was a
college student at the time going to night school, however, lately
I've been thinking about a Harley 883 Sporster. If I catch one at a
good price......

... I
would not trust any yard in my area to do a holed (particularly below
the water line) hull in glass.

I wouldn't either. I'd do it myself.

.... If you don't feather back the edges
properly and back lap the repair, there will be a weak spot do to the
loss of the monolithic nature of the woven roving, mat and cloth. Not
sure I would ever trust it. Not an issue with steel.

A weld can never be as strong as the original metal.

I concur with Joe. It certainly can. If it is fully penetrated,
properly tied into the base metal with no cold lapping or undercutting
it will as strong as the original metal. (provided you use the proper
filler metal). You do have to be somewhat concerned about shrinkage
at the heat affected zone, but that can be handled.

A
properly done fiberglass repair can be stronger than the
original... in fact, it can be a problem if you make the
patch too stiff because that throws more stress to the other
areas of the hull.

Looks to me like you guys who are already welders have a lot
of faith in metal... that's good. OTOH it would be
interesting to see your opinion after studying a text on
composite engineering. I have done minor fiberglass work for
many years, but recently decided to learn more about it &
the best books seem to be focussed on aviation.

Just talking about repairs here. I'm not promoting steel as the best
boat building material. And you're right, it is a matter of
perspective and circumstance, what's in your skill bag. I've done
both (although never to repair a holed hull with either) and my
druthers would be to weld a repair.

That said, I'd still rather have a glass boat. Did someone mention
rust as an issue?

Why no. Is rust a problem for steel boats?? Who'd a thunk
it? ;)

DSK

Capt. JG wrote:

Also, you're not sheathed in copper. :-)

I used to be, but it wore off.

DSK

Well, at least you're no longer green. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:

Also, you're not sheathed in copper. :-)

I used to be, but it wore off.

DSK

Frank Boettcher wrote:
Just talking about repairs here. I'm not promoting steel as the best
boat building material.

It's certainly very practical for some types of
boatbuilding. I'm not trying to say it isn't.

.... And you're right, it is a matter of
perspective and circumstance, what's in your skill bag. I've done
both (although never to repair a holed hull with either) and my
druthers would be to weld a repair.

Part of my point is that people go with what they know. I am
not a welder.

It also seems to me that materials & tools for fiberglass
repair are much simpler & cheaper & easier to carry around
than materials & tools for welding; for that matter,
materials for fiberglass repair are available at Home
Depot... so is some welding stuff, of course...

As for learning, it's easily possible to teach people to do
first-class fiberglass molding in two or three days. The
problem is that they're not likely to be diligent enough
once teacher is gone, and somehow it does not seem to be the
type of work that most people take pride in... "Gee, it
looks just like *real* fiberglass."

The result is that most fiberglass workers cut corner when
they shouldn't and the repair is weaker (especially if it
involves a secondary bond). That's one of two reasons why I
do it myself (and it also proves an old old saying).

As for the motorcycle/welder connection... ain't the world a
funny place!

DSK

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

I've been thinking about a Harley 883 Sporster. If I
catch one at a
good price......

That's a girls bike, Frank

Scotty

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:58:05 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

I've been thinking about a Harley 883 Sporster. If I
catch one at a
good price......

That's a girls bike, Frank

Scotty

Well, not a matter of image for me and I don't want it for touring.
basic local transportation with a little fun thrown in.

Every morning I get in my truck and ride about 5 miles one way to a
trail head and then I run 5-8 miles. Ten miles with truck mileage.
The bike would be more fun and less gas.

Besides, most of those so called " tough guys" that I know that have
big Harleys put them on trailers or trucks and haul them to "ride ins"
Now that's really macho. And they couldn't run 80 yards much less 8
miles.

And it's a matter of perspective. When I was a kid a 300CC bike was
considered a "big" bike. Pushing 60, I want something that is fun
without busting the bank.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

Well, not a matter of image for me and I don't want it for
touring.
basic local transportation with a little fun thrown in.

Okay, just stay out of the biker bars. ;)

Every morning I get in my truck and ride about 5 miles one
way to a
trail head and then I run 5-8 miles. Ten miles with truck
mileage.
The bike would be more fun and less gas.

Good for you. Why not ride a bicycle?

Besides, most of those so called " tough guys" that I know
that have
big Harleys put them on trailers or trucks and haul them
to "ride ins"
Now that's really macho. And they couldn't run 80 yards
much less 8
miles.

So true. Most Harley owners keep them in the garage, but
make damn sure everbody knows they own one.

And it's a matter of perspective. When I was a kid a
300CC bike was
considered a "big" bike. Pushing 60, I want something
that is fun
without busting the bank.

I know two guys that own them, the 883. It was a cheap (
relatively ) way to own a Harley. You get to wear the
T-shirt then. IMO they are junk, especially compared to
other ( foreign) , smaller, lighter, faster, cheaper bikes.
But, to each his own.

--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:49:46 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

Well, not a matter of image for me and I don't want it for
touring.
basic local transportation with a little fun thrown in.

Okay, just stay out of the biker bars. ;)

I'm OK here. Most of the Harley owners are bankers, lawyers,
insurance salesment and doctors.

Every morning I get in my truck and ride about 5 miles one
way to a
trail head and then I run 5-8 miles. Ten miles with truck
mileage.
The bike would be more fun and less gas.

Good for you. Why not ride a bicycle?

I would except that the 5 miles is on a four lane, high traffic,
rush hour road. Not that brave.

Besides, most of those so called " tough guys" that I know
that have
big Harleys put them on trailers or trucks and haul them
to "ride ins"
Now that's really macho. And they couldn't run 80 yards
much less 8
miles.

So true. Most Harley owners keep them in the garage, but
make damn sure everbody knows they own one.

And it's a matter of perspective. When I was a kid a
300CC bike was
considered a "big" bike. Pushing 60, I want something
that is fun
without busting the bank.

I know two guys that own them, the 883. It was a cheap (
relatively ) way to own a Harley. You get to wear the
T-shirt then. IMO they are junk, especially compared to
other ( foreign) , smaller, lighter, faster, cheaper bikes.
But, to each his own.

Not interested in the T-shirt, but, truthfully I haven't done a lot of
research into the subject, don't know good from bad. Thought after HD
came back from their spiral down in the seventies, all the bikes were
good. Maybe not?

When I was a kid and had an interest, Honda's were the rage. No
Harley dealers any where close but the local motorcycle shop was a
Triumph and Cushman dealer. Then Honda's were first imported and they
took on the line. I bought a fifty when I was 13 to throw a paper
route. Quality beat anything sold in the US at that time. Maybe still
does.

So when you're stepping up from a 50, an 883 is a big enough step :~)

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

So when you're stepping up from a 50, an 883 is a big
enough step :~)

Is there an H-D dealer near you, do they also sell Buell?
Buell makes a 500cc 'Blast' that is a decent mid size bike.

Scotty

Frank, I dunno why you're talking about buying a motorcycle
instead of a boat. Here's a thought, why not bicycle to your
running trail? Then you can get more exercise coming & going.

And I wouldn't worry about a "girl's bike." One of the best
welders I ever worked with was a lady biker.

Scotty wrote:
Is there an H-D dealer near you, do they also sell Buell?
Buell makes a 500cc 'Blast' that is a decent mid size bike.

A neighbor down in New Bern has a Buell. Seems to be a great
ride.

DSK

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 07:01:52 -0400, DSK wrote:

Frank, I dunno why you're talking about buying a motorcycle
instead of a boat.

Mutually exclusive projects not restricted from concurrent activity.

Here's a thought, why not bicycle to your
running trail? Then you can get more exercise coming & going.

Would like to, but way too dangerous because of the road I have to
take. It's bad enough that, when running, I have to come off the
trail onto the Natchez Trace to cross one street on an overpass.
Unbelievable how many people will not give way even when not faced
with any oncoming traffic.

And I wouldn't worry about a "girl's bike." One of the best
welders I ever worked with was a lady biker.

Not worried. Haven't seen any girls riding them down here. And when
I was welding women were not. That came later.

Scotty wrote:
Is there an H-D dealer near you,
No, although maybe in Memphis or Birmingham. If I go through with it
I anticipate buying private party used.

do they also sell Buell?
Buell makes a 500cc 'Blast' that is a decent mid size bike.

Don't know, might check, haven't seen any in the area.

Frank

A neighbor down in New Bern has a Buell. Seems to be a great
ride.

DSK

Frank Boettcher wrote:

Not worried. Haven't seen any girls riding them down here. And when
I was welding women were not. That came later.

Oh come on now, many many of the welders building liberty ships in WWII
were ladies.
Sounds like you have an excellent background in welding. I'm thinking
on going to a night school in Texas City to get up to speed on modern
methods. Seems no one uses rods anymore.

Uhhh...and Frank, Scotty's right, the sportster is indeed a girley
bike, many girls ride them here.
Get a fatboy, or go with the Buell.

Joe

"DSK" wrote
Scotty wrote:
Is there an H-D dealer near you, do they also sell
Buell?
Buell makes a 500cc 'Blast' that is a decent mid size
bike.

A neighbor down in New Bern has a Buell. Seems to be a
great
ride.

My buddy has one of the early Buells, with the 1000cc
Sportster engine. That sucker flies!

Scotty

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...snip... Thought after HD
came back from their spiral down in the seventies, all the bikes were
good. Maybe not?
....snip...

Hi, Frank, This is Frank. grin My $.02...

I had a Sportster in the 60s. At the time, it was pretty much as
dependable as any other bike available. By the 70s, that was far from
true. However, like you said, by the 80s they talked about how they'd
bought themselves back and were producing bikes as good as anything
from Japan. So in 88, I bought a new H-D. This one had electric start.
Whoo-hoo!

Hah! What a POS. Couldn't go a thousand miles without needing a major
visit to the shop. I sold it in 90 and bought a nice Yamaha for about
1/3 the price. Faster, can actually corner without scraping anything,
infinitely more dependable, blah, blah. H-D will never get any of my
money again.

YMMV,

Frank

On 4 Aug 2006 08:41:37 -0700, "Joe" wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:

Not worried. Haven't seen any girls riding them down here. And when
I was welding women were not. That came later.

Oh come on now, many many of the welders building liberty ships in WWII
were ladies.

Yeah, but they quit after the war and went to having babies. I went
back to work for the Company for which I was a welder after I finished
school. Was there in the mid seventies when we hired our first female
welder. What a disaster. She was a very good welder but also good
looking. Productivity went to hell in a hand basket. And cost the
company a bundle to provide "facilities" for what was a previously all
male shop floor workforce. After spending all that money we never
attracted more than a handful of female welders and pipefitters for
shop floor work.

Sounds like you have an excellent background in welding. I'm thinking
on going to a night school in Texas City to get up to speed on modern
methods. Seems no one uses rods anymore.

And when I was welding, all the major oil companies, our customers,
wrote the "modern" processes out of the specs. They didn't want and
GMAW (Mig) or FCAW (flux core) used on their platforms, particularly
on pressure components.

I still think SMAW (rods) is the most versatile and reliable because
you can change characteristics with a rod change and you don't have to
worry about the wind blowing your shield gas away. Plus it is simple.
You don't have to worry about "bird nesting" your wire feeder.

Uhhh...and Frank, Scotty's right, the sportster is indeed a girley
bike, many girls ride them here.
Get a fatboy, or go with the Buell.

Joe

On 4 Aug 2006 09:37:33 -0700, "Frank" wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...snip... Thought after HD
came back from their spiral down in the seventies, all the bikes were
good. Maybe not?
...snip...

Hi, Frank, This is Frank. grin My $.02...

I had a Sportster in the 60s. At the time, it was pretty much as
dependable as any other bike available. By the 70s, that was far from
true. However, like you said, by the 80s they talked about how they'd
bought themselves back and were producing bikes as good as anything
from Japan. So in 88, I bought a new H-D. This one had electric start.
Whoo-hoo!

Hah! What a POS. Couldn't go a thousand miles without needing a major
visit to the shop. I sold it in 90 and bought a nice Yamaha for about
1/3 the price. Faster, can actually corner without scraping anything,
infinitely more dependable, blah, blah. H-D will never get any of my
money again.

YMMV,

Frank

Thanks for the info and opinion Frank. You're the hurricane magnet are
you not? Were are you? I need to stay away. And can we chip in and
pay your way for an extended stay on City Island, NYC, during
hurricane season?

Frank