Battery charging
 

What is the recommended procedure..
Start with Battery #1 or
Star with Both Batteries switch ON

THanks
JWB

Battery charging
 

John W. Bienko wrote:
What is the recommended procedure..
Start with Battery #1 or
Star with Both Batteries switch ON


Well, if you can charge the batteries seperately that's
probably the best idea, because unless the batterries have
been connected in parallel, they will be at different
voltages... and as soon as you connect them, the higher one
will start discharging itself into the low one. This will
heat them both up and make charging less efficient no matter
what you've got hooked up to the circuit to charge them.

DSK

Battery charging
 

In article ,
John W. Bienko wrote:
What is the recommended procedure..
Start with Battery #1 or
Star with Both Batteries switch ON

THanks
JWB

Many people have a dedicated bat for starting and one for cruising. We
start on one and cruise on two. If we have trouble starting, we use
both. The disadvantage of starting on both is that if it doesn't
start, you can run down both and have nothing left.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Battery charging
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John W. Bienko wrote:
What is the recommended procedure..
Start with Battery #1 or
Star with Both Batteries switch ON

THanks
JWB

Many people have a dedicated bat for starting and one for cruising. We
start on one and cruise on two. If we have trouble starting, we use
both. The disadvantage of starting on both is that if it doesn't
start, you can run down both and have nothing left.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Or that you forget to switch the batteries after the engine is started, and
don't charge either battery properly, overcharging one battery and
undercharging the other.

John Cairns

Battery charging
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:13:31 GMT, "John Cairns"
said:

Or that you forget to switch the batteries after the engine is started,
and
don't charge either battery properly, overcharging one battery and
undercharging the other.

Why do you think that not charging the second battery will result in
overcharging the first? I would have thought that a well built system
would
prevent overcharging even if you had only one battery.

He didn't mention having a "well built system", simply a typical 1-2 All
battery selector switch, which does nothing to regulate charge. I would have
thought that if he had a "well built system" he would have nmentioned it and
indeed, probably never have asked the question in the first place, as he
would have had no need to. Which reminds me of the fact that I don't have a
"well built system" on my own boat, possibly a project to tackle this year.

John Cairns

Battery charging
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:13:31 GMT, "John Cairns"
scribbled thusly:

Or that you forget to switch the batteries after the engine is started,
and
don't charge either battery properly, overcharging one battery and
undercharging the other.

John Cairns

Huh?



Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

What I read. Typically you have two different size batteries, which not only
charge a different rates but usually have different levels of charge. A
battery selector switch does nothing to regulate charging rates, and
batteries themselves are not self regulating. With a proper charge
monitoring system one would be able to manually switch between batteries,
but the original poster never indicated that he had one of those either. My
guess is that he doesn't.

John Cairns

Battery charging
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
He didn't mention having a "well built system", simply a typical 1-2 All
battery selector switch, which does nothing to regulate charge. I would
have
thought that if he had a "well built system" he would have nmentioned it
and
indeed, probably never have asked the question in the first place, as he
would have had no need to. Which reminds me of the fact that I don't have
a
"well built system" on my own boat, possibly a project to tackle this
year.

John Cairns

John, the regulator regulates charge.
When a battery is charged it simply stops charging....what would you
do after all batteries were charged and yet you still needed the
engine....Unplug wires?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

"Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual"

Good section on battery charging, with brief and easy-to-understand
explanations as to how alternators/batteries work in both automotive/marine
applications, the differences between those two very different types of
alternators. In a nutshell, automotive alternators/regulators are designed
to charge batteries that are never typically deeply discharged, marine
alternators/regulators are designed to charge deep cycle batteries that are
typically discharged to half of their capacity. You might note the term
alternator/regulator, we're talking about a typical automotive or marine
alternator that has an integrated regulator, not a seperate regulator like
those made by Heart or Ample Charge as part of a proper charging system on a
sailboat. Suggest you buy the book, hours of reading on
mechanical/electrical systems on boats, with an emphasis on sailboats, at
least that's my impression, though it could simply be bias.

John Cairns

Battery charging
 

.... I would have thought that a well built system
would
prevent overcharging even if you had only one battery.


True

He didn't mention having a "well built system", simply a typical 1-2 All
battery selector switch, which does nothing to regulate charge.

Also true, but not necessarily relevant. The usual
"1-2-Both" rotary switch is almost a guarantee that you will
have a dead battery at some point in the use of the boat,
and probably blow up your alternator as well.

.... I would have
thought that if he had a "well built system" he would have nmentioned it and
indeed, probably never have asked the question in the first place, as he
would have had no need to. Which reminds me of the fact that I don't have a
"well built system" on my own boat, possibly a project to tackle this year.


A smart charger is very well worth the money even if you
just overnight occasionally.


OzOne wrote:
John, the regulator regulates charge.


Umm, no. Unless it's a smart charger, all it regulates is
voltage.

Most alternators have the voltage regulator built into the
stator, which means that it sense voltage at the output of
the alternator, not on your battery. This guarantees that it
is not getting charged as much as it could, because the
voltage at the output is higher than what your bettery
actually gets. Then, most regulators work on a resistance
curve that does not bring the amperage down at the right
curve for charging as the battery voltage goes up. Usually
the voltage will go too high, which means it's boiling off
the battery electrolyte.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Battery charging
 

.... The usual
"1-2-Both" rotary switch is almost a guarantee that you will
have a dead battery at some point in the use of the boat,
and probably blow up your alternator as well.


Mys Terry wrote:
Bwhahahahahahahaha! What an idiot!


Let's see, who's the idiot... a person who knows about
alternator field disconnects or the person who doesn't...

DSK

Battery charging
 

John,

I have to agree with you. After years of using single batteries for
starting and running and other for House Battery and a single for
Inverter, I finally learned to start on two and run on both; just like
my truck camper. My Inverter wasn't hooked up to the battery switch so
that did need special attention. I've since done away with the Inverter
battery and paralleled it inverter with the house battery. They all get
the same charge. Works for me and cleaned up the wiring.

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Battery charging
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I have to agree with you. After years of using single batteries for
starting and running and other for House Battery and a single for
Inverter, I finally learned to start on two and run on both; just like
my truck camper. My Inverter wasn't hooked up to the battery switch so
that did need special attention. I've since done away with the Inverter
battery and paralleled it inverter with the house battery. They all get
the same charge. Works for me and cleaned up the wiring.

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

What I have found works well is to have a third battery (i.e., a starting
battery optimized for engine cranking as opposed to deep discharge) that is
on its own on/off switch, located as close to the engine as possible for a
short cable run and with significantly sized cable. (I'm using #00.) I only
turn this on for starting and for about the first 15 or 20 minutes of engine
running time (to make sure it gets topped back off after starting the
engine.) Then, I set my two Group 27 house batteries to the "Both" (i.e.,
paralleled) position and switch off the starting battery. (Important to do
it in that order so as not to fry the alternator diodes.) These Group 27's
are identical batteries of the same age and have always been run in parallel
so (hopefully) they have been discharging/charging at more or less the same
rate. Plus, by always running them in parallel I tend not to suck either
battery down too low, as opposed to, for example, seriously depleting
battery #1 and then switching to battery #2.

Regards,
Alan Gomes

Battery charging
 

OzOne wrote:
That's why we have switches that make before break.


A good idea, but most of the simple & cheap battery switches
don't even pretend to do this. Many of the expensive ones
that claim to, don't. It's a fairly simple thing so I don't
know why that is... may be different down your way.

DSK

Battery charging
 

Mys Terry wrote:
.... If you believe what Oz just posted, you'll have learned
something that you didn't know.

No danger of that happening with you

DSK

Battery charging
 

"John W. Bienko" wrote in message
...
What is the recommended procedure..
Start with Battery #1 or
Star with Both Batteries switch ON

THanks
JWB

Some battery switches are designed to allow switching between banks while
the engine is running, others are not. I would suggest you contact the
manufacturer and find out about your particular model. If yours is the type
that must be switched to another bank while the engine is off, then I would
say start with your starting bank, charge it up, then turn off the engine
after it is warmed up and switch to "both", restart your engine warm
(easier) and charge both banks. This can be repeated to charge the second
bank alone as well after the "both" sequence.
I would advise you look into battery isolators and a battery condition
monitor. Hope that helps.

Deck Gorilla

Battery charging
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:13:31 GMT, "John Cairns"
said:

Or that you forget to switch the batteries after the engine is started,
and
don't charge either battery properly, overcharging one battery and
undercharging the other.

Why do you think that not charging the second battery will result in
overcharging the first? I would have thought that a well built system
would
prevent overcharging even if you had only one battery.

You can not overcharge a battery with a properly functioning alternator.

Deck Gorilla

Battery charging
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 14:04:09 GMT, "silverback"
wrote:

You can not overcharge a battery with a properly functioning alternator.

Wanna bet?

Enlighten me. From my experience on a multiude of vessels as crew, running
for hours and even days on both gas and diesel axilliary, I have never heard
of a battery begining overcharged by operation of an engine for extended
durations. I have been informed by many people that such an incident could
not occur with a properly functioning alternator. Maybe you have experience
to contradict this? If so, I would be interested in the conditions and
siuations that led you your conclusions.

Deck Gorilla

Battery charging
 

Ozone wrote ...
.
IOW, You could motor your sailboat a dozen times around
the world

Why would he do that, it's a SAILboat?

S

Battery charging
 

"silverback" wrote in message
news:tLBgg.8127$771.3210@edtnps89...

You can not overcharge a battery with a properly functioning alternator.

Deck Gorilla

"In typical automotive use we have a thin plate cranking battery that is
rarely discharged by more than a small percentage of it's capacity. The act
of cranking draws the charge from the surface of the plates, which are then
recharged before the battery has time to equalize internally-the inner
plates retain their charge. In general, the engine and alternator run far
longer than is needed to replace this charge. Little charge is needed; it
has to be applied only to the surface areas of the plates; and we have
excess charging time. In this undemanding environment voltage regulator
settings are kept deliberately low in order to avoid damaging the battery
through overcharging during extended periods of engine running time.

In contrast, in many marine applications a thick-plate deep-cycle battery is
deeply discharged over a long period of time, allowing the battery to
equalize internally and so draining the charge from the inaccessible
inner-plate areas. The engine and alternator are then run for far less time
than is needed to restore a full charge. If a typical automotive regulator
voltage setting of around 14.0 volts(for a 12 volt system) is used during
charging, the rising surface voltage of the battery will cause the regulator
to curtail alternator output soon after the battery is 50% charged, which is
well before battery safety demands that it be cut back. This unnecessarily
prolongs charging times.

Since a well designed deep cycle battery bank will be cycling primarily in
the region of 50% to 80% of full charge, a typical regulator cripples
charging performance in the region of interest to boat owners! As a result,
many batteries are perennially undercharged, and die prematurely from
sulphation. In addition, if battery charging is accomplished by running the
boat's main engine at anchor, the engine will run long hours at low loads to
little effect, except to increase wear, tear, and maintenance.

In these circumstances the charge rate needs to be accelerated to the limit
the batteries can accept, driving the voltage(pressure) as high as can be
tolerated, so that the inner plate areas will be charged as rapidly as
possible. But if a regulator's voltage setting is raised to produce the
maximum safe charge rate in the 50% to 80% of full charge region, during
extended periods of engine running the batteries will be overcharged. This
will result in an excessive loss of electrolyte, destruction of the positive
plate grids, and perhaps overheating and buckling of the battery plates.

The dilemma is clear. In many pleasure boat situations, batteries are
periodically discharged deeply (to at least the 50% level), but charging
times are restricted. Thus, fast charges are required, which calls for
higher voltage regulator settings than in automotive applications; otherwise
the batteries will suffer from undercharging, sulphation, and a permanent
loss of capacity. But if voltage regulator settings are raised, extended
engine running will likely overcharge the batteries, causing excessive
gassing and plate damage".

Nigel Calder

"Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual"

The key, IMHO, is how batteries discharge and accept charges.

John Cairns

Battery charging
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

Ozone wrote ...
.
IOW, You could motor your sailboat a dozen times around
the world

Why would he do that, it's a SAILboat?

I believe Ozone is attempting to make it comprehendable to Capt. Rob. It's a
good thing Heart of Gold has an infinity drive.

Deck Gorilla

Battery charging
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:32:36 GMT, "John Cairns"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
He didn't mention having a "well built system", simply a typical 1-2 All
battery selector switch, which does nothing to regulate charge. I would
have
thought that if he had a "well built system" he would have nmentioned it
and
indeed, probably never have asked the question in the first place, as he
would have had no need to. Which reminds me of the fact that I don't
have
a
"well built system" on my own boat, possibly a project to tackle this
year.

John Cairns

John, the regulator regulates charge.
When a battery is charged it simply stops charging....what would you
do after all batteries were charged and yet you still needed the
engine....Unplug wires?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

"Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual"

Good section on battery charging, with brief and easy-to-understand
explanations as to how alternators/batteries work in both
automotive/marine
applications, the differences between those two very different types of
alternators. In a nutshell, automotive alternators/regulators are designed
to charge batteries that are never typically deeply discharged, marine
alternators/regulators are designed to charge deep cycle batteries that
are
typically discharged to half of their capacity. You might note the term
alternator/regulator, we're talking about a typical automotive or marine
alternator that has an integrated regulator, not a seperate regulator like
those made by Heart or Ample Charge as part of a proper charging system on
a
sailboat. Suggest you buy the book, hours of reading on
mechanical/electrical systems on boats, with an emphasis on sailboats, at
least that's my impression, though it could simply be bias.

John Cairns

Yes John, you do have a regulator so it is just not possible to
overcharge a battery unless there is a problem with that regulator.
IOW, You could motor your sailboat a dozen times around the world with
the battery switch set to one bank and never overcharge that bank.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

"In typical automotive use we have a thin plate cranking battery that is
rarely discharged by more than a small percentage of it's capacity. The act
of cranking draws the charge from the surface of the plates, which are then
recharged before the battery has time to equalize internally-the inner
plates retain their charge. In general, the engine and alternator run far
longer than is needed to replace this charge. Little charge is needed; it
has to be applied only to the surface areas of the plates; and we have
excess charging time. In this undemanding environment voltage regulator
settings are kept deliberately low in order to avoid damaging the battery
through overcharging during extended periods of engine running time.

In contrast, in many marine applications a thick-plate deep-cycle battery is
deeply discharged over a long period of time, allowing the battery to
equalize internally and so draining the charge from the inaccessible
inner-plate areas. The engine and alternator are then run for far less time
than is needed to restore a full charge. If a typical automotive regulator
voltage setting of around 14.0 volts(for a 12 volt system) is used during
charging, the rising surface voltage of the battery will cause the regulator
to curtail alternator output soon after the battery is 50% charged, which is
well before battery safety demands that it be cut back. This unnecessarily
prolongs charging times.

Since a well designed deep cycle battery bank will be cycling primarily in
the region of 50% to 80% of full charge, a typical regulator cripples
charging performance in the region of interest to boat owners! As a result,
many batteries are perennially undercharged, and die prematurely from
sulphation. In addition, if battery charging is accomplished by running the
boat's main engine at anchor, the engine will run long hours at low loads to
little effect, except to increase wear, tear, and maintenance.

In these circumstances the charge rate needs to be accelerated to the limit
the batteries can accept, driving the voltage(pressure) as high as can be
tolerated, so that the inner plate areas will be charged as rapidly as
possible. But if a regulator's voltage setting is raised to produce the
maximum safe charge rate in the 50% to 80% of full charge region, during
extended periods of engine running the batteries will be overcharged. This
will result in an excessive loss of electrolyte, destruction of the positive
plate grids, and perhaps overheating and buckling of the battery plates.

The dilemma is clear. In many pleasure boat situations, batteries are
periodically discharged deeply (to at least the 50% level), but charging
times are restricted. Thus, fast charges are required, which calls for
higher voltage regulator settings than in automotive applications; otherwise
the batteries will suffer from undercharging, sulphation, and a permanent
loss of capacity. But if voltage regulator settings are raised, extended
engine running will likely overcharge the batteries, causing excessive
gassing and plate damage".

Nigel Calder

"Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual"

The key, IMHO, is how batteries discharge and accept charges.

John Cairns

Battery charging
 

What about the newer dual purpose ( start - deep )
batteries?

S


"John Cairns" wrote in
message
. net...

"silverback" wrote in message
news:tLBgg.8127$771.3210@edtnps89...

You can not overcharge a battery with a properly
functioning alternator.

Deck Gorilla

"In typical automotive use we have a thin plate cranking
battery that is
rarely discharged by more than a small percentage of it's
capacity. The act
of cranking draws the charge from the surface of the
plates, which are then

Battery charging
 

Enlighten me. From my experience on a multiude of vessels as crew, running
for hours and even days on both gas and diesel axilliary, I have never heard
of a battery begining overcharged by operation of an engine for extended
durations. I have been informed by many people that such an incident could
not occur with a properly functioning alternator.

Maybe, maybe not ;)

What would you call being overcharged?
Perhaps these same people are aware that it often happens
that a battery is overheated and given too high a voltage,
resulting in lost electrolyte (easy to replace, but still a
PITA) and sulfation of the plates (also reversible, also
PITA). This isn't quite the same thing as "overcharging."


... Maybe you have experience
to contradict this? If so, I would be interested in the conditions and
siuations that led you your conclusions.




Mys Terry wrote:
First you will need to learn the difference between an alternator and a
regulator.


That's a good intelligent answer.

Don't ask DSK, cause he doesn't know.


Wrong. A regulator regulates, and alternator alternates.

DSK

Battery charging
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message

First you will need to learn the difference between an alternator and a
regulator.


Bwahahahahahaaa... your boat has an outboard fer chris's sake.
This of course makes you the geriatric diva of marine electrical systems!?

Have another pill ... you old coot! Your advanced state of senile
dementia..... is becoming glaringly apparent.

CM-

Battery charging
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
What about the newer dual purpose ( start - deep )
batteries?

S

Can't help but thinking this is a marketing ploy, everyone seems to be
selling them. I can't really understand what they mean by dual purpose,
unless they're implying that the one battery is adequate for both a house
battery application AND a starting battery, no need for another dedicated
"house" battery. Any deep cycle battery with the correct MCA rating for a
particular application will do as a starting battery, and having dedicated
batteries for house and starting applications minimizes the possibility of
not having enough juice to start the diesel, should also prolong the life of
the batteries.

John Cairns

Battery charging
 

You know why Scot,

Its common knowledge to any sailor. The minute you set your sails &
course; the wind either dies or shifts to dead on your Bow.


Battery charging

Group: alt.sailing.asa Date: Sun, Jun 4, 2006, 10:38am (PDT+3) From:
(Scotty)
Ozone wrote ...

IOW, You could motor your sailboat a dozen times around the world
Why would he do that, it's a SAILboat?
S

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Battery charging
 

"Scotty" wrote....
What about the newer dual purpose ( start - deep )
batteries?



John Cairns wrote:
Can't help but thinking this is a marketing ploy, everyone seems to be
selling them. I can't really understand what they mean by dual purpose,
unless they're implying that the one battery is adequate for both a house
battery application AND a starting battery, no need for another dedicated
"house" battery. Any deep cycle battery with the correct MCA rating for a
particular application will do as a starting battery, and having dedicated
batteries for house and starting applications minimizes the possibility of
not having enough juice to start the diesel, should also prolong the life of
the batteries.


A single battery would be a bad idea, even if it was truly
"dual-purpose," unless you placed light house loads on it
and really didn't need it to start the engine.

OTOH if you shop around, there are dual purpose batteries
with easily enough cranking amps to start our diesel (which
bigger than anybody else here is likely to need), and with
enough reserve amps to serve as a good house battery. And
they're less expensive per amp, although they tend to be
more bulky & heavy than a single purpose of the same rating.
An oversized dual purpose battery used for starting is also
likely to have a longer service life than a starting battery.

IMHO it depends on what you're looking for.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Battery charging
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message

It's somewhere in-between. Sort of like Ganzy. Deep Cycle batteries have
fewer,
thicker plates, so they are not as capable of supplying sudden bursts of
energy
demanded by starting. Starting Batteries have more, and thinner plates, so
they
can proviode larger amounts of current for shorter periods. The combo
batteries
are the worst of both worlds.

In effect you are claiming that Ganzy is the homo of humanity.... and dual
purpose batteries are the M26X of the marine batteries? I take offence at
this... you should seriously try to be more positive. It's as obvious as the
orderly approaching you with another enema.... that a dual purpose battery
was designed for a dual purpose boat!! Which proves without a doubt that
everything has a place... Ganzy at the helm of his MX26 with 2 banks of dual
purpose batteries... motorsailing in California! Glory Sail!!

CM-

Battery charging
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:53:48 GMT, "Capt.Mooron"

wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message

First you will need to learn the difference between an alternator and a
regulator.


Bwahahahahahaaa... your boat has an outboard fer chris's sake.
This of course makes you the geriatric diva of marine electrical systems!?

Have another pill ... you old coot! Your advanced state of senile
dementia..... is becoming glaringly apparent.

Poor Mooron - Can't even get his dinghy wet, much less his patchwork
Nordica.


You long for Ganzy's dinghy and are envious of my Nordica... admit it!

CM-

Battery charging
 

In article ac%gg.12942$A8.7152@clgrps12,
Capt.Mooron wrote:
You long for Ganzy's dinghy and are envious of my Nordica... admit it!

CM-

Mooron is quite an angry person, isn't he. Quite a pathetic person,
deserving of our sympathy.



--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Battery charging
 

In article k8%gg.12936$A8.7488@clgrps12,
Capt.Mooron wrote:
In effect you are claiming that Ganzy is the homo of humanity.... and dual
purpose batteries are the M26X of the marine batteries? I take offence at
this... you should seriously try to be more positive. It's as obvious as the
orderly approaching you with another enema.... that a dual purpose battery
was designed for a dual purpose boat!! Which proves without a doubt that
everything has a place... Ganzy at the helm of his MX26 with 2 banks of dual
purpose batteries... motorsailing in California! Glory Sail!!

CM-

No Mooron, you're just an angry guy who has a lot of obvious
inadequacies.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com