Question for you technical sailers

So I did a regatta this weekend (sorry, no pics, weather was terrible
and I didn't even get the camera out) on a friends brand new Beneteau
343.

Conditions were strong winds with frequent gusts (15-18 with gust to
25). Seems like no matter what sail set or reef selection we chose
the boat had a really bad tendency to round up on gusts. Once it
started up, helm became useless with no feel. Since the boat was new
to the owner and none of the crew of four had sailed together we were
not sure if it was us (probably) or the boat.

We had a crew member assigned to flagging the main upon command when
the gust came up.

Admittedly, most of the time we were probably carrying too much sail.
It was a race, after all.

This is a boat of the modern thinking of great big mainsails. we were
carrying a 150 with roller furling and experimented with taking it in
with limited sucess. also reefed the main once, also limited success.

So what do you do first to control this? reef the main with full jib;
reef the jib with full main? reef both at simultaneously? Quicker
anticipation between the helmsman and the crew member assigned to
dumping the main?

We did take third in class, but this boat can do much better in light
air.

Frank

I'm not a racer, but dumping the main faster would help.. was it cleated?
How about moving the traveller down? That might have had a longer term
affect, but like you said it was a race.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...

Question for you technical sailers

So I did a regatta this weekend (sorry, no pics, weather was terrible
and I didn't even get the camera out) on a friends brand new Beneteau
343.

Conditions were strong winds with frequent gusts (15-18 with gust to
25). Seems like no matter what sail set or reef selection we chose
the boat had a really bad tendency to round up on gusts. Once it
started up, helm became useless with no feel. Since the boat was new
to the owner and none of the crew of four had sailed together we were
not sure if it was us (probably) or the boat.

We had a crew member assigned to flagging the main upon command when
the gust came up.

Admittedly, most of the time we were probably carrying too much sail.
It was a race, after all.

This is a boat of the modern thinking of great big mainsails. we were
carrying a 150 with roller furling and experimented with taking it in
with limited sucess. also reefed the main once, also limited success.

So what do you do first to control this? reef the main with full jib;
reef the jib with full main? reef both at simultaneously? Quicker
anticipation between the helmsman and the crew member assigned to
dumping the main?

We did take third in class, but this boat can do much better in light
air.

Frank

Frank,

Maybe when Nutsy gets sailing his we can get some knowledge (?)

When I was still racing and they were a rather new bred but they
definitely did show that tendency to be squirrelly. It took a lot of
crew work to get them upwind at full speed. My friend did work his
backstay adjuster and kept the head of his main almost in a constant
state of loft. I'm not sure about the helm but I'm sure if you want Max
speed you don't want to be a "Tail Wagger" They are fast, when sailed
properly but Dogs when they're not.

It seemed everybody had a suggestion but it seemed that the Main trimmer
and Helmsman had work together pretty much. That's my observation, for
what its worth and it isn't much.

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

30 Apr 2006, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Question for you technical sailers

So I did a regatta this weekend (sorry, no pics, weather was terrible
and I didn't even get the camera out) on a friends brand new Beneteau
343.

Its a great sailing boat, if not sailed badly by the crew.

Conditions were strong winds with frequent gusts (15-18 with gust to
25). Seems like no matter what sail set or reef selection we chose
the boat had a really bad tendency to round up on gusts. Once it
started up, helm became useless with no feel.

You probably had the main in way too tight and weren't adequately
reefing the 150 genoa (as above +/- 16/17 kts, the boat" likes" to
have the genny reefed if not to the second then at least to the first
reef point).

Since the boat was new
to the owner and none of the crew of four had sailed together we were
not sure if it was us (probably) or the boat.

Almost certainly: the crew.

We had a crew member assigned to flagging the main upon command when
the gust came up.

Subject of course to actual gusts (in the unpredictable sense as
distinguished from even comparatively changes in wind speed that
aren't "gusts"), the main on that and like models "likes" to be
depowered (use the traveler), not "flogged" (which rarely is necessary
and, in racing, is not exactly well designed to maintain either boat
speed or direct).

Admittedly, most of the time we were probably carrying too much sail.
It was a race, after all.

Yeah, but that's a big mistake for this sort of design: depending, of
course, on the paticular point of sale and on all the other usual
variables, this boat is designed to reach theoretical maximum hull
speed at a compartively low point on its "polars" scale and relately
doesn't sail efficiently (fast) if very substantially heeled (which is
not necessary to maintain fast speed)

This is a boat of the modern thinking of great big mainsails. we were
carrying a 150 with roller furling and experimented with taking it in
with limited sucess. also reefed the main once, also limited success.

Its desirable to maintain "balance" in the sail (which, at noted, can
include "depowering" with the traveler in particularly strong winds),
especially while racing (exept, note, too, that - again, depending of
course on point of sail and on other conditions, while 15-18 kts true
going periodically to 25 is brisk, this isn't necessarily "strong" in
the sense I use that term above even if on some points of sail 25 kts
might border on that).

So what do you do first to control this? reef the main with full jib;
reef the jib with full main?

Requires knowing the specific conditions - but generally speaking for
this model and like ones, experiement first with reefing the jib, at
least to the first (and, maybe, second) reef point while also trying
to maintain "balance" (to get that groved pressure between the jib and
main) so by also reefing the main but also in depowered condition.

reef both at simultaneously?

Probably, yes (both to "both" and "simulatenously"), though one really
does need to experiement. Again, however, this is _not_ a model that
ought be "rouding" up and, if sailed properly in the conditions to
which you appear to refer, probably would not round up.

Quicker anticipation between the helmsman and the crew
member assigned to dumping the main?

This is always an option, but (as noted) probably not one needed
(except in real gusts) if the sails are set correctly for the +/-
16/17 kts wind force (depending on point of sail). Further, given
that "depending on point of sail" Thing, _especially_ for racing, the
arguably key notion is to sail the course best for the boat, not
necessarily the course best for other (especially in handicapped races
if against racing-oriented ones, like J boats or an Express 37 or the
like)

We did take third in class, but this boat can do much better in light
air.

Depends what you mean by light air.

The boat ought have been "flying" ("zooming"?) in 16/17 kts.

Frank

Frank,
There are three way to turn a boat. Rudder is the
most common. You can also steer by the sails.
Over the trimming the main moves the CE aft of the
CLR causing the boat to turn upwind. You can also
steer by heeling. Heeling the boat to starboard
will cause it to turn to port. Better dinghy
sailors figure this out and can almost tack the
boat without the use of the rudder.
In your situation, you have two working against
one. Your bowman should be looking for puffs and
calling them back. As the puff comes on, ease the
traveler, and hike harder. As the boat
accelerates, trim. Ease, hike, trim.
S.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote
in message
...
:
: Question for you technical sailers
:
: So I did a regatta this weekend (sorry, no pics,
weather was terrible
: and I didn't even get the camera out) on a
friends brand new Beneteau
: 343.
:
: Conditions were strong winds with frequent gusts
(15-18 with gust to
: 25). Seems like no matter what sail set or reef
selection we chose
: the boat had a really bad tendency to round up
on gusts. Once it
: started up, helm became useless with no feel.
Since the boat was new
: to the owner and none of the crew of four had
sailed together we were
: not sure if it was us (probably) or the boat.
:
: We had a crew member assigned to flagging the
main upon command when
: the gust came up.
:
: Admittedly, most of the time we were probably
carrying too much sail.
: It was a race, after all.
:
: This is a boat of the modern thinking of great
big mainsails. we were
: carrying a 150 with roller furling and
experimented with taking it in
: with limited sucess. also reefed the main once,
also limited success.
:
: So what do you do first to control this? reef
the main with full jib;
: reef the jib with full main? reef both at
simultaneously? Quicker
: anticipation between the helmsman and the crew
member assigned to
: dumping the main?
:
: We did take third in class, but this boat can do
much better in light
: air.
:
: Frank

My 35s5 has a very large main and we sailed her in heavy air. YES, she
will round up quite easily in the gusts, but I don't feel it's much
different from my C&C, only less forgiving with the 35s5's performance.
As others have said, you need an experienced hand on the mainsail trim
and in flukey air it has to be adjusted almost as much as the helm
inputs. Cruising is another matter, just spill her off for the middle
wind range and we won't even carry a jib in that kind of air much of
the time. The boat does quite well under her main alone. When a heavy
gust comes in NO amount of helm input with keep her nose down. You MUST
ease the main quickly and trim back to maintain boat speed.
Sailing our 35s5 (pics coming soon) is simply amazing compared to what
we've owned before. The boat is alive, even in light air and we pass
just about everything!


RB
35s5
NY

Big fat rear end on these boats that makes room for aft cabins is the
main culprit for roundups on thse cruisers in a breeze. Try flooging
the main going uphill.

On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:17:05 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:


Question for you technical sailers

So I did a regatta this weekend (sorry, no pics, weather was terrible
and I didn't even get the camera out) on a friends brand new Beneteau
343.

Conditions were strong winds with frequent gusts (15-18 with gust to
25). Seems like no matter what sail set or reef selection we chose
the boat had a really bad tendency to round up on gusts. Once it
started up, helm became useless with no feel. Since the boat was new
to the owner and none of the crew of four had sailed together we were
not sure if it was us (probably) or the boat.

We had a crew member assigned to flagging the main upon command when
the gust came up.

Admittedly, most of the time we were probably carrying too much sail.
It was a race, after all.

This is a boat of the modern thinking of great big mainsails. we were
carrying a 150 with roller furling and experimented with taking it in
with limited sucess. also reefed the main once, also limited success.

So what do you do first to control this? reef the main with full jib;
reef the jib with full main? reef both at simultaneously? Quicker
anticipation between the helmsman and the crew member assigned to
dumping the main?

We did take third in class, but this boat can do much better in light
air.

Frank


And the answer is, Your collective advice fairly accurate.

Owner got input from Beneteau and the OEM sail supplier. For the wind
as described, we should have had a double reef in the jib and at least
a single in the main. At a minimum; maybe more.

Depower on gusts using the traveler, not the main sheet.

Boat needs to stay flatter, big ass end (common these days because of
aft cabins and swim platforms) causes problems on excessive heel.
Wetted surface jumps up fast.

Guess all those years of sailing that Columbia with the "wineglass"
transom, that could not be pushed around regardless, left me ill
prepared to sail one of these newer cruisers. Nice production boat,
though. We'll get it right next time.

Frank