This topic deserves it's own thread.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they
tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the
more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and
down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Seems they always fail in situations like this.

Wrong. They rarely fail in situations like this.


Dave wrote:
There's a classic case of ships passing in the night. Joe meant that when
they fail, it's usually in conditions like this. Doug replied that they
usually work, including usually working in conditions like this. Aside from
Doug's word "Wrong," the two statements are, of course, not mutually
exclusive.

If the roller furlers work only a small percent of the time
"in situations like this" then it is wrong to say that they
always fail. In other words, the two statements *are*
mutually exclusive.

When a survey taken of serious long-term passagemakers
includes gear, roller furlers are almost always regarded as
among the most reliable gear on the boat. In fact I recall
seeing a survey of a large group (20) of circumnavigators,
none of whom reported a single roller furler problem.

In other words, there is no reason to assume that roller
furlers suck, unless
1- you have another agenda wholly divorced from reality
2- you assume that the given roller furler is not sized,
installed, or maintained correctly
3- you can't afford a roller furler anyway and are bitter &
spiteful

I think Joe is somewhere between 1 & 2. The Crapton was a
strong 3. Maybe somebody should google up of Jax's
pronouncements on roller furlers, that might be amusing.

DSK

I agree actually. I used to rent boats from a place that had it on a couple
of their boats. Pop the halyard and you're pretty much done.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they
tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the
more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and
down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
This topic deserves it's own thread.

Well, I'll start. I have a generic flaking system called a "Lazy Mate", came
with the boat. What a pos! It does keep the sail on the boom, however.

John Cairns


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to
put holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each
situation right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the
sail from the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much
because they tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They
do make the more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail
goes up and down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put
holes in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

affiliation? what, with sailing?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 20:14:01 -0500, "Bart Senior" .@. said:

This topic deserves it's own thread.

Hate to say it, Bart, but in view of your affiliation this repeat of your
earlier message is approaching spam.

I don't disagree about its being a nice system. But one must exercise a
little restraint with his enthusiasm.

... Aside from
Doug's word "Wrong," the two statements are, of course, not mutually
exclusive.

If the roller furlers work only a small percent of the time
"in situations like this" then it is wrong to say that they
always fail. In other words, the two statements *are*
mutually exclusive.


Dave wrote:
If RF works only a small percentage of the time "in situations like this," I
don't think I'd want it regardless of whether or not the literal statement
that it always fails is an overstatement.


I guess the difference between "an overstatement" and
"wrong" is an ideological point, eh?


But Joe's statement is susceptible to two readings. The second reading is
that when RF fails it's always in situations like this.

Which would also be wrong, because sometimes roller furlers
fail in different circumstances.

If you're going to look at cases in the real world, I stand
by my asertion that nearly all (90%) of roller furler
failures are due to buying a cheap one (including one that
is undersized for the load), mis-installation of it, or
improper maintenance... or, of course, a combination of two
or more of the above. IMHO there is no weather or sailing
situation that directly leads to roller furler failure in
any measurable percentage of cases.

In other words, wrong.
Again.



... A slight hyperbole,
perhaps, but hyperbole is a perfectly valid way to make a point.

When the point is wrong to start with? And then hammering
that "slight hyperbole" into the ground?


...Not the
same as saying that in all situations like this RF fails.

Well, that's what Joe said.

In logic terms,
"all A is B" does not imply that "all B is A."


Of course not. Are you implying that I somehow said it was?

DSK

Thom Stewart wrote:
I'd call that name calling!


Good thing this isn't an election. I just lost another vote!

DSK

Dave wrote:
I happen to like RF, but your last sentence evinces another logical fallacy:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/posthocf.html

Joe asserts, correctly or not, a correspondence in time between RF failure
and adverse conditions. He does not assert a causal relationship.

Bull****.

That's *exactly* what Joe asserted.

DSK

If they use Profurl on the Southern Ocean it is good
enough for me. I'm waiting for my new unit to come
in. LC42 model. And I won't have to cut, modify,
or swag the forestay. Also I'll be able to install it with
the forestay attached to the top of the mast.

"DSK" wrote
Seems they always fail in situations like this.

Wrong. They rarely fail in situations like this.


Dave wrote:
There's a classic case of ships passing in the night. Joe meant that when
they fail, it's usually in conditions like this. Doug replied that they
usually work, including usually working in conditions like this. Aside
from
Doug's word "Wrong," the two statements are, of course, not mutually
exclusive.

If the roller furlers work only a small percent of the time "in situations
like this" then it is wrong to say that they always fail. In other words,
the two statements *are* mutually exclusive.

When a survey taken of serious long-term passagemakers includes gear,
roller furlers are almost always regarded as among the most reliable gear
on the boat. In fact I recall seeing a survey of a large group (20) of
circumnavigators, none of whom reported a single roller furler problem.

In other words, there is no reason to assume that roller furlers suck,
unless
1- you have another agenda wholly divorced from reality
2- you assume that the given roller furler is not sized, installed, or
maintained correctly
3- you can't afford a roller furler anyway and are bitter & spiteful

I think Joe is somewhere between 1 & 2. The Crapton was a strong 3. Maybe
somebody should google up of Jax's pronouncements on roller furlers, that
might be amusing.

DSK

You need to get a Dutchman. If you want one let me
know I can probably get you a good price for one.

"John Cairns" wrote

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
This topic deserves it's own thread.

Well, I'll start. I have a generic flaking system called a "Lazy Mate",
came with the boat. What a pos! It does keep the sail on the boom,
however.

John Cairns


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to
put holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each
situation right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the
sail from the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much
because they tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They
do make the more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail
goes up and down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put
holes in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.