Serious PHRF question
 

Recently I spoke with several 35s5 owners who told me they had mostly
abandoned racing their boats because ratings (under 120) were unfair
for the boat. They claimed that very experienced crews could sail a
perfectly tuned 35s5 to 120 or better, but that most people couldn't
and a rating should be based on typical performance ratios rather than
a hard to achieve combo of excellent crew and rig tuning. Is this
bellyaching? When do boats get an unfair rating? A boat we sailed on
rated at 129 and did well in races, but perhaps the owner was fanatical
about it. He claimed he was a lazy racer and still won, but this
conflicts with other comments. How do some boats, such as an Elite 326
get a rating that is so easy to sail to or beat, while others have an
uphill battle?
A local J24 racer told me that a boat should NOT be rated to anything
less than it's best possible performance. Does this make sense and how
often and fairly is it applied?


RB
35s5...the better boat
NY

A Serious PHRF answer
 

RB,

I have a great deal of experience with several PHRF groups. Yes, the
initial PHRF rating is assigned to be a best guess based on similar
boats and it expected to be performance based on a well campaigned boat
that is properly setup and has a good crew.

The PHRF committees I have had dealings with have always done their best
to be fair. All PHRF committees have an appeal protocol. But, do not
go to them just to complain. If you go there, go armed with data.
(Case stories omitted for brevity.) Know before you go; does anybody
any where sail this boat to the same rating you are assigned?

There is no way a PHRF committee could rate boats so those that were not
well tuned and sailed with a less than good crew could be accommodated.
Yes, some boats ratings are unfair both ways and I could cite
examples of both easily.

If you want to be competitive:
First - sign up a dedicated crew of at least one man per ton (minimum 3
for spinnaker classes and one less of non-spin).
Second - make sure that the mast is over the boat and straight at the dock.
Third - have two full crew tune up days:
- one for the rig (is the mast straight on both boards and is the
prebend correct.
- one for the crew (does each man know his job, is your weight
distribution good).
Fourth - do your homework:
- make sure that all the race information is in an easily handled
form.
- have all the race marks loaded as waypoints (it may be
advantageous to route the race).
Fifth - you can't be skipper and crewchief(coach) and helmsman and
tactician:
- the skipper calls the shots.
- the crewchief organizes maneuvers and assigns the crew to tasks
as required.
- the helmsman has to have no other responsibilities
- the tactician must understand what and where any information is
and what the boat can do.

Good Luck

Matt Colie A.Sloop “Bonne Ide’e” S2-7.9 #1
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Pathological Sailor


Capt. Rob wrote:
Recently I spoke with several 35s5 owners who told me they had mostly
abandoned racing their boats because ratings (under 120) were unfair
for the boat. They claimed that very experienced crews could sail a
perfectly tuned 35s5 to 120 or better, but that most people couldn't
and a rating should be based on typical performance ratios rather than
a hard to achieve combo of excellent crew and rig tuning. Is this
bellyaching? When do boats get an unfair rating? A boat we sailed on
rated at 129 and did well in races, but perhaps the owner was fanatical
about it. He claimed he was a lazy racer and still won, but this
conflicts with other comments. How do some boats, such as an Elite 326
get a rating that is so easy to sail to or beat, while others have an
uphill battle?
A local J24 racer told me that a boat should NOT be rated to anything
less than it's best possible performance. Does this make sense and how
often and fairly is it applied?


RB
35s5...the better boat
NY

A Serious PHRF answer
 

Matt Colie wrote:
I have a great deal of experience with several PHRF groups. Yes, the
initial PHRF rating is assigned to be a best guess based on similar
boats and it expected to be performance based on a well campaigned boat
that is properly setup and has a good crew.


Right, the PHRF rating is supposed to be based on a
well-tuned boat, with a crew good enough to win at least
local one-design champs.

The PHRF committees I have had dealings with have always done their best
to be fair.

Somewhat agreed, the PHRF rating sturcture is a good-ol'-boy
network. For the most part, they don't set out to
deliberately screw over some competitors. OTOH most of them
also approach their job with an idea of who the winners
"ought" to be.

.... All PHRF committees have an appeal protocol. But, do not
go to them just to complain. If you go there, go armed with data. (Case
stories omitted for brevity.) Know before you go; does anybody any
where sail this boat to the same rating you are assigned?


A rating appeal is like any other protest- you should
appproach it seriously and with all homework done.

There is no way a PHRF committee could rate boats so those that were not
well tuned and sailed with a less than good crew could be accommodated.
Yes, some boats ratings are unfair both ways and I could cite
examples of both easily.


Most sportsboats have an unfair rating in most conditions.
However, this is the nature of the beast, when the boat is
blazing fast under some conditions, that must be averaged in
with it's performance the rest of the time.


If you want to be competitive:
First - sign up a dedicated crew of at least one man per ton (minimum 3
for spinnaker classes and one less of non-spin).
Second - make sure that the mast is over the boat and straight at the dock.
Third - have two full crew tune up days:
- one for the rig (is the mast straight on both boards and is the
prebend correct.
- one for the crew (does each man know his job, is your weight
distribution good).
Fourth - do your homework:
- make sure that all the race information is in an easily handled form.
- have all the race marks loaded as waypoints (it may be
advantageous to route the race).
Fifth - you can't be skipper and crewchief(coach) and helmsman and
tactician:
- the skipper calls the shots.
- the crewchief organizes maneuvers and assigns the crew to tasks as
required.
- the helmsman has to have no other responsibilities
- the tactician must understand what and where any information is
and what the boat can do.

Good Luck

I would also say
-get excess dead weight off the boat
-scrupulously clean the bottom
-practice basic maneuvers so that you don't lose boatlengths
on every tack, set, gybe, & douse.

Most PHRF boats are laughably poorly sailed... bad starts,
slow & low upwind, missing shifts, making abysmal tacks,
taking forever to get the spinnaker set, etc etc. Often the
guys whining about their rating are the ones carrying a
lawnmower in their lazarette, and letting the genoa flap for
ten minutes after every tack.

OTOH it is a fun social event and a lot more people can play.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Serious PHRF question
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Recently I spoke with several 35s5 owners who told me they had mostly
abandoned racing their boats because ratings (under 120) were unfair
for the boat. They claimed that very experienced crews could sail a
perfectly tuned 35s5 to 120 or better, but that most people couldn't
and a rating should be based on typical performance ratios rather than
a hard to achieve combo of excellent crew and rig tuning. Is this
bellyaching? When do boats get an unfair rating? A boat we sailed on
rated at 129 and did well in races, but perhaps the owner was fanatical
about it. He claimed he was a lazy racer and still won, but this
conflicts with other comments. How do some boats, such as an Elite 326
get a rating that is so easy to sail to or beat, while others have an
uphill battle?
A local J24 racer told me that a boat should NOT be rated to anything
less than it's best possible performance. Does this make sense and how
often and fairly is it applied?


RB
35s5...the better boat
NY


So what you are saying is "I can't sail or rig a yacht properly so it
isn't fair. Everything should be based around me and my ineptitude."

You want the boat to be handicapped by the standard of the crew, not
rated at its potential.

Why don't you just learn to sail?


Janet

Serious PHRF question
 

Janet wrote:
Capt. Rob wrote:

Recently I spoke with several 35s5 owners who told me they had mostly
abandoned racing their boats because ratings (under 120) were unfair
for the boat. They claimed that very experienced crews could sail a
perfectly tuned 35s5 to 120 or better, but that most people couldn't
and a rating should be based on typical performance ratios rather than
a hard to achieve combo of excellent crew and rig tuning. Is this
bellyaching? When do boats get an unfair rating? A boat we sailed on
rated at 129 and did well in races, but perhaps the owner was fanatical
about it. He claimed he was a lazy racer and still won, but this
conflicts with other comments. How do some boats, such as an Elite 326
get a rating that is so easy to sail to or beat, while others have an
uphill battle?
A local J24 racer told me that a boat should NOT be rated to anything
less than it's best possible performance. Does this make sense and how
often and fairly is it applied?


RB
35s5...the better boat
NY


So what you are saying is "I can't sail or rig a yacht properly so it
isn't fair. Everything should be based around me and my ineptitude."

You want the boat to be handicapped by the standard of the crew, not
rated at its potential.

Why don't you just learn to sail?


Janet

We've all been asking that question for years....

Serious PHRF question
 

We've all been asking that question for years....


Hey, look! An actual sailing thread and it's trolled by two "women."



RB
35s5
NY

Serious PHRF question
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
We've all been asking that question for years....


Hey, look! An actual sailing thread and it's trolled by two "women."



RB
35s5
NY

Truth hurts, huh, crybabu? You sxpect the whole world to revolve
around you. Grow up.

Serious PHRF question
 

You sxpect the whole world to revolve
around you.


Nope...just this group.

Grow up.

Why? So I can end up like you with some crappy boat and a life
philosphy of "more of the same." No thanks, I'll pass on growing up!



RB
35s5
NY

Serious PHRF question
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
You sxpect the whole world to revolve
around you.


Nope...just this group.

Grow up.

Why? So I can end up like you with some crappy boat and a life
philosphy of "more of the same." No thanks, I'll pass on growing up!



RB
35s5
NY

More of the same? My life is hardly that. In the past 5 years we
have seen so much change that it has been hard to keep up with it at
times. You, however, by your own posts, are caught in the selfsame
rut that you have been in since you first started to post here.

Serious PHRF question
 

SLAM! One point to to the astute Janet.

"Janet" wrote
Capt. Rob wrote:
Recently I spoke with several 35s5 owners who told me they had mostly
abandoned racing their boats because ratings (under 120) were unfair
for the boat. They claimed that very experienced crews could sail a
perfectly tuned 35s5 to 120 or better, but that most people couldn't
and a rating should be based on typical performance ratios rather than
a hard to achieve combo of excellent crew and rig tuning. Is this
bellyaching? == HAVE SOME CHEESE WITH YOUR WHINE!


So what you are saying is "I can't sail or rig a yacht properly so it
isn't fair. Everything should be based around me and my ineptitude."

You want the boat to be handicapped by the standard of the crew, not rated
at its potential.

Why don't you just learn to sail?
Janet