The PHRF Flaw
 

Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23
Coronado 27
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7
Farr 38
C&C 34R
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

Since I've actually been in PHRF races ...

Oh? How many?


... and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:
...
Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand
the basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?

The possibility that the slower boats might not finish within the time
limit. Which is why a club might split the boats into groups (fast yacht,
slow yacht, white sails, etc).


--
Capt Scumbalino

The PHRF Flaw
 

The possibility that the slower boats might not finish within the time
limit. Which is why a club might split the boats into groups (fast
yacht,
slow yacht, white sails, etc).


That's true....these boats may be broken down into various classes, but
that's not the BIG PHRF FLAW I'm looking for.


RB
35s5
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

Well Robert,

All rating rules have flaws.

If you are (in the case) eluding to the fact that, if this race is one
class, the rating spread is way too wide. You would have a scratch to
itch of 15 (give or take) minutes - in short - the 34r would have to
finish over a mile ahead of the Spirit. - I didn't bother to look up
all the ratings.

This is the short answer (believe it!)

The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews and
so have an unfair advantage once the rating is too old to be easily
contested.

Another flaw in PHRF is that the history (at least in the areas I have
sailed) is based on "around the bouys" races and it has a know problem
when used on a "windward-leeward" race as the history includes some
broard reaching which is often the strong point of the older
racer/cruiser boats.

There are really only 2 types of rating rules:
Measured characterisic rules (this actually includes one-design)
Performance history rules (the PHRF and Portsmouth family)
(Well, then there is Americap - now Americap II that is secret and still
under development)

If your problem is something else, it must be way down the list.

Matt Colie (WSSC PC'03)


Capt. Rob wrote:
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23 219
Coronado 27 228
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7 81
Farr 38 90
C&C 34R 78
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews



Correct! When 35s5's, Farr's and 36.7's are crewed by pro's and semi
pro's, it can be tough to measure up to a well sailed Catalina 30 than
hardly has a history of attracting a pro crew. My friend's Catalin 30
wins often by that simple fact, beating out more serious racers. The
more serious boat needs a serious crew at times to beat it's less
seriously crewed cousins.
It's the fatal flaw of PHRF. When talking to a few friends about racing
the 35s5 and looking at the racings, they all said we'd have to sail
the 35s5 with far more skill than an old Ericson, Columbia or Pearson
to win. Most of my friends race one design. While PHRF racing is still
a valuable learning tool, it's too much of a mess to be taken
seriously!

Boat for boat is all that matters when two vessels are of roughy the
same dimensions.


RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

Depends on the skipper and his crew. For instance, the C&C 34R
with a putz, such as yourself as skipper would surely be beaten
by the Coronado 27 with Loco at the helm.

Scotty


"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only
read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race
consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23
Coronado 27
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7
Farr 38
C&C 34R
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of
boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't
understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the rules always
favor the best skippers.

Matt Colie wrote:
Well Robert,

All rating rules have flaws.

If you are (in the case) eluding to the fact that, if this race is one
class, the rating spread is way too wide. You would have a scratch to
itch of 15 (give or take) minutes - in short - the 34r would have to
finish over a mile ahead of the Spirit. - I didn't bother to look up
all the ratings.

This is the short answer (believe it!)

The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews and
so have an unfair advantage once the rating is too old to be easily
contested.

Another flaw in PHRF is that the history (at least in the areas I have
sailed) is based on "around the bouys" races and it has a know problem
when used on a "windward-leeward" race as the history includes some
broard reaching which is often the strong point of the older
racer/cruiser boats.

There are really only 2 types of rating rules:
Measured characterisic rules (this actually includes one-design)
Performance history rules (the PHRF and Portsmouth family)
(Well, then there is Americap - now Americap II that is secret and still
under development)

If your problem is something else, it must be way down the list.

Matt Colie (WSSC PC'03)


Capt. Rob wrote:
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23 219
Coronado 27 228 Siedlemann 30 Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7 81
Farr 38 90 C&C 34R 78
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the rules always
favor the best skippers.


I think you missed the point. The best skippers favor the best boats,
skewing the PHRF in favor of lesser boats with "good" skippers.

RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

Bob, most guys at least wait until after their first race to
whine about their boats' rating.

Sheesh, get the thing in the water first!

SBV

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the rules
always
favor the best skippers.


I think you missed the point. The best skippers favor the best
boats,
skewing the PHRF in favor of lesser boats with "good" skippers.

RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

Already working on excuses for how well you are going to sail your boat...


"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews



Correct! When 35s5's, Farr's and 36.7's are crewed by pro's and semi
pro's, it can be tough to measure up to a well sailed Catalina 30 than
hardly has a history of attracting a pro crew. My friend's Catalin 30
wins often by that simple fact, beating out more serious racers. The
more serious boat needs a serious crew at times to beat it's less
seriously crewed cousins.
It's the fatal flaw of PHRF. When talking to a few friends about racing
the 35s5 and looking at the racings, they all said we'd have to sail
the 35s5 with far more skill than an old Ericson, Columbia or Pearson
to win. Most of my friends race one design. While PHRF racing is still
a valuable learning tool, it's too much of a mess to be taken
seriously!

Boat for boat is all that matters when two vessels are of roughy the
same dimensions.


RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

Bob... there isn't a flaw as far as I'm concerned. .... unless "Line
Honours" or 1st Place is all that counts for you when racing. I think
Overproof's rating is 180... so I don't care if I have a fully pro crew or
my usual party animals.... I'm not taking line honours from a Farr 38 nor a
C&C 35s5 on a standard harbour course. I'd be lucky to make middle of the
pack in that bunch.

I generally know where I'm going to place and try to use the conditions
which give my vessel the advantage to improve that. It's simply a matter of
"You knew the job was dangerous when you chose it". Racing is okay as a
diversion.... but it's far from my favourite activity.

Like I said previously... I found out I won first place even though I was
sure we had only placed 3rd once.

CM


"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23
Coronado 27
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7
Farr 38
C&C 34R
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message news:I74bf.79891$S4.46233@edtnps84...
| Bob... there isn't a flaw as far as I'm concerned. .... unless "Line
| Honours" or 1st Place is all that counts for you when racing. I think
| Overproof's rating is 180... so I don't care if I have a fully pro crew or
| my usual party animals.... I'm not taking line honours from a Farr 38 nor a
| C&C 35s5 on a standard harbour course. I'd be lucky to make middle of the
| pack in that bunch.
|
| I generally know where I'm going to place and try to use the conditions
| which give my vessel the advantage to improve that. It's simply a matter of
| "You knew the job was dangerous when you chose it". Racing is okay as a
| diversion.... but it's far from my favourite activity.
|
| Like I said previously... I found out I won first place even though I was
| sure we had only placed 3rd once.
|
| CM


Any type of 'handicap' racing with any kind of rating system is not
reality and those who participate in all such exercises are not smart
enough to realize they are participating in a farce.

The only real winner of any sailboat race is the first boat across
the finish line. The only real loser is each and every boat that
participates and us real sailors out there trying to sail with a
bunch of assholes who don't have a clue about the Rules of
the Road endangering our legitimate activities.

Racing is NOT sailing.

CN

The PHRF Flaw
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
The possibility that the slower boats might not finish within the time
limit. Which is why a club might split the boats into groups (fast
yacht,
slow yacht, white sails, etc).


That's true....these boats may be broken down into various classes, but
that's not the BIG PHRF FLAW I'm looking for.


RB
35s5
NY

How about the Time on Time or Time on Distance controversy?

Gary

The PHRF Flaw
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the rules always
favor the best skippers.


I think you missed the point. The best skippers favor the best boats,
skewing the PHRF in favor of lesser boats with "good" skippers.

RB
35s5...a not so fast boat with a low rating because benny bought some pro's!
NY

So you're claiming that your bendy is actually much slower than its
rating would imply. In other words, it owes its low rating to the
"pro's and semi-pro's" and not to its design. You'll have to remember
that when you're passed by a Nonsuch.

The PHRF Flaw
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. Rob wrote:
The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the
rules always
favor the best skippers.


I think you missed the point. The best skippers favor the
best boats,
skewing the PHRF in favor of lesser boats with "good"
skippers.

RB
35s5...a not so fast boat with a low rating because benny
bought some pro's!
NY

So you're claiming that your bendy is actually much slower than
its
rating would imply. In other words, it owes its low rating to
the
"pro's and semi-pro's" and not to its design. You'll have to
remember
that when you're passed by a Nonsuch.


if bob starts racing and , of course, losing a lot, will that
make the 35s rating go higher?

SBV

The PHRF Flaw
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

That's true....these boats may be broken down into various classes,
but that's not the BIG PHRF FLAW I'm looking for.

How many PHRF races have you done?


--
Capt Scumbalino

The PHRF Flaw
 

How many PHRF races have you done?


Not many, a few each season for the last 10 years or so. I'm certainly
not experienced at it. I raced a few J24's in class more often and that
was more fun as well.

RB
35s5...better faster and more fun!
NY

The PHRF Flaw
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:LV4bf.408217$oW2.261955@pd7tw1no...
Capt. Rob wrote:
The possibility that the slower boats might not finish within the time
limit. Which is why a club might split the boats into groups (fast
yacht,
slow yacht, white sails, etc).


That's true....these boats may be broken down into various classes, but
that's not the BIG PHRF FLAW I'm looking for.


RB
35s5
NY

How about the Time on Time or Time on Distance controversy?

Gary

PHRF doesn't specify having to score any particular way. You can do either
under PHRF.

John Cairns

The PHRF Flaw-I demonstrates my lack of skill
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23
Coronado 27
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7
Farr 38
C&C 34R
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF, or one design,
or the special olympics
NY

Ah, Bob, don't know how to break the news to you, but the reason these guys
with the "slow" older boats do so well on Wednesday night is that they've
owned their boats for years, and they can sail them to their rating, more
often than not, they can sail them faster than their rating. They know their
boats, something that generally takes a little longer than a couple of hours
to achieve You forget, or more likely, never knew, that PHRF is merely a
RATING system for the YACHT. I told you to read that last paragraph twice,
maybe I should have told you to read it over and over again until you
actually understood what they were trying to say. PHRF does not now, nor has
it ever, advocated any particular method of scoring a race. If you looked
far and wide you could find a group of sailors that handicap lack of skill,
the overwhelming majority do not, however. Best stick to trying to outsail
those "slower" boats.

John Cairns

The PHRF Flaw
 

Not many, a few each season for the last 10 years or so. I'm
certainly
not experienced at it. I raced a few J24's in class more often and that

was more fun as well..

I say bull****. You would have posted 2 page cronicles of your
adventures the day after. You never posted anything about being
involved in a race as long as I've been here. In fact you knocked
people who did. Busted!

The PHRF Flaw
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. Rob wrote:
The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the
rules always
favor the best skippers.


I think you missed the point. The best skippers favor the
best boats,
skewing the PHRF in favor of lesser boats with "good"
skippers.

RB
35s5...a not so fast boat with a low rating because benny
bought some pro's!
NY

So you're claiming that your bendy is actually much slower than
its
rating would imply. In other words, it owes its low rating to
the
"pro's and semi-pro's" and not to its design. You'll have to
remember
that when you're passed by a Nonsuch.


if bob starts racing and , of course, losing a lot, will that
make the 35s rating go higher?

SBV

No. Besides, he'll never race.

John Cairns

The PHRF Flaw-I demonstrates my lack of skill
 

Ah, Bob, don't know how to break the news to you, but the reason these
guys
with the "slow" older boats do so well on Wednesday night is that
they've
owned their boats for years


Ah, joe with the sad sorry Catalina 28....my friend wins with her
Catalina 30 (owned ONE season) because it's EASY to sail it to it's
rating. Same for the Ericson 32 my friends sail. In both cases they are
less experienced than some of the crews on faster boats that are
battling with ratings culled from professional crewed boats over the
years.
You truly have no clue. And I must sadly say that your choice in boats
is further proof of that. Who the hell buys a Catalina 28?

RB
35s5...a boat with all the trimmings!
NY

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

"Capt. Rob" shat out this gem
oups.com...
Ah, Bob, don't know how to break the news to you, but the reason these
guys
with the "slow" older boats do so well on Wednesday night is that
they've
owned their boats for years


You truly have no clue. And I must sadly say that your choice in boats
is further proof of that. Who the hell buys a Catalina 28?

RB
35s5...a boat with all the trimmings! Too bad it can't sail itself!
NY


If I had to guess bubbles, I'd say it was the guy that gets the flags.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...97600332fRndbR

0wned!!!!!!!!!

John Cairns

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 05:57:52 GMT, "John Cairns"
scribbled thusly:

If I had to guess bubbles, I'd say it was the guy that gets the flags.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...97600332fRndbR

0wned!!!!!!!!!

John Cairns


International?
Who else was there?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Well, you know, just the Canadians. Not much to brag about.

John Cairns

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 06:18:56 GMT, "John Cairns"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 05:57:52 GMT, "John Cairns"
scribbled thusly:

If I had to guess bubbles, I'd say it was the guy that gets the flags.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...97600332fRndbR

0wned!!!!!!!!!

John Cairns


International?
Who else was there?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Well, you know, just the Canadians. Not much to brag about.

John Cairns


OK, I'll back down then :-)


Did I tell you about the 15' skiff International Championship I
happened upon?
8 boats, all from the same sailing club, 4 were regulars, of which 3
were actually capable sailors. The rest were worse than terrible.

I made my thought very clear to their OOD and race management.
Ya see we have rules here about just what you can call State, National
and International Championships and they hardly even managed to call
themselves a class.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

We are on the border, so we do get a fair # of guys from the other side that
race in our events and vice versa. Have a nice race at the end of the year
down to one of the clubs in Ontario about 30 nm away, then two races on
Sunday. Labor Day weekend, really nice folks, good party, good racing. The
only problem we've had was a Melges 24 that showed up for one of our races,
said his rating was 96.Only problem, we had a Melges 24 in our class at Bay
Week with a rating of 81. 15 seconds per mile is a big difference,
especially in a distance race. I think they ended up with our US rating.

http://www.cedarislandyachtclub.com/

John Cairns

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

If I had to guess bubbles, I'd say it was the guy that gets the flags.




Woweee! I just got finished telling everyone that my friend wins with
her Catalina 30 owned ONE SEASON. Thanks for making the point. Every
racer I know laughs at PHRF because the crappy boats generally have the
advantage. A Catalina 28 is a turd...and not a very intelligent turd to
buy as turds go!

RB
35s5....a boat that would literally sail circles around any Catalina
28!
NY

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

RB
35s5....a boat that circles turds like a starving vulture
28!
NY

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

Woweee! I just got finished telling everyone that my friend wins with
her Catalina 30 owned ONE SEASON. Thanks for making the point. Every
racer I know laughs at PHRF because the crappy boats generally have the
advantage. A Catalina 28 is a turd...and not a very intelligent turd to
buy as turds go!

RB
35s5....a boat that would literally sail circles around any Catalina
28!
NY


Bob, I'm very impressed that you appreciate this subtlety in PHRF.
Certain boats, especially modern designs, require extra skill to get
the most out of them. Further, boats that attract highly skilled
"professional" crews will have ratings the reflect their skills in all
aspects, such as spinnaker handling. The ratings will reflect this
since they tend to reflect the best use of a boat, not the average.
As a result, the average owner of a boat like a 35s5 will not be able
to sail to his rating, while a for less extreme design will be easier.

So how much of a "penalty" is this for the average sailor, with an
average crew. The minimum increment in PHRF is usually 3 seconds, but
only a fool would lose by a few seconds and then blame it on the
rating system. Clearly then the average benny sailor is, according to
Bob, going to sail perhaps 12 to 15 seconds slower than his rating.
For the 35s5 WK, this means the fairly low rating of 132 becomes in
practice 147 to 150. This puts the benny right in there with the
Catalina 36, slower than the Hunters. In fact, a quick scan of the
list shows that a variety of boats 36 feet or less have ratings under
150: Irwins, O'Days, Pearsons, Sabre's, Tartan's, etc.

Its nice to see that Bob realizes that although his boat may show
moments of speed, on average, its just another midsized daysailor, and
will frequently be passed by "crappy boats."

The PHRF Flaw-I demonstrates my lack of skill
 

the ericson 32 is a decent boat...it have a pretty favorable
rating?





" Same for the Ericson 32 my friends sail. In both cases they are
less experienced than some of the crews on faster boats that are
battling with ratings culled from professional crewed boats over the
years. "

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
If I had to guess bubbles, I'd say it was the guy that gets the flags.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...97600332fRndbR

Bwahahahahahhahhahahhahhahahhahahahahhahahahaha

0wned!!!!!!!

Woweee! I just got finished telling everyone that my friend wins with
her Catalina 30 owned ONE SEASON.

Proof? Didn't think so.

RB
35s5....a boat that would literally sail circles around any Catalina
28! If I did any sailing, that is.
NY

When you can prove how fast your boat is, with you at the helm, post it up.
Like I said before, bubbles, the boat won't sail itself. The ratings mean
nothing. OTOH, your boat will impress the lubbers that you sail with.

John Cairns

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

When you can prove how fast your boat is, with you at the helm, post it
up.
Like I said before, bubbles, the boat won't sail itself.


Yes, it will.


Robert B
35s5...a boat that can sail itself!
NY

The PHRF Flaw-It demonstrates my lack of skill
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

Like I said before, bubbles, the boat won't sail itself.

Yes, it will.

Please post a vid of it rounding a windward mark by itself.


--
Capt Scumbalino

The PHRF Flaw
 

In article , OzOne wrote:

Who cares, PHRF is for whiners and cheats.
It's run by fat old talentless pricks who make decisions based upon
how it will advantage them.

That's exactly why Bob's interested in it.

PDW