Seamanship Question #24
 

You are sailing a Cheetah 30 downwind in the
trades.

Specs of the boat.
http://www.bana.com/cheetah/c30spec.htm

Conditions. 35 knot winds, 15' seas 15 seconds apart.

You have an asmmetric up and full main hauling ass
when your main starts coming apart. You do not
have a spare main.

What steps should you take next?

What should you not do? (i.e. you should have one
big concern--what is it?)

Seamanship Question #24
 

grab a mooring?


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
You are sailing a Cheetah 30 downwind in the
trades.

Specs of the boat.
http://www.bana.com/cheetah/c30spec.htm

Conditions. 35 knot winds, 15' seas 15 seconds apart.

You have an asmmetric up and full main hauling ass
when your main starts coming apart. You do not
have a spare main.

What steps should you take next?

What should you not do? (i.e. you should have one
big concern--what is it?)

Seamanship Question #24
 

Bart Senior wrote:
You are sailing a Cheetah 30 downwind in the
trades.

Specs of the boat.
http://www.bana.com/cheetah/c30spec.htm

Conditions. 35 knot winds, 15' seas 15 seconds apart.

You have an asmmetric up and full main hauling ass
when your main starts coming apart. You do not
have a spare main.

What steps should you take next?

Hit the rewind button


What should you not do? (i.e. you should have one
big concern--what is it?)


A couple of big concerns. A boat with a long sprit & a big A-sail like
this will not like heading up, in fact it will probably refuse to do so
and the attempt couold knock the boat down or break some important part
of the rig. So you have to carry on downwind.

Another concern is the loss of support for the mast from the leach of
the main. If you leave the chute up, and try to take the main down, you
will probably break the mast.

The first thing I'd think about is whether or not the thing will hold
together long enough to get into sheltered water. If that's out of the
question, then getting the spinnaker down is the first step.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Seamanship Question #24
 

Excellent answer Doug. The main point I wanted
to get across was the danger of losing the support
the main gives to the mast. Without a backstay,
carrying a spinnaker, or any sort of headsail, would
likely take out the mast.

This is true of any boat without a backstay.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
You are sailing a Cheetah 30 downwind in the
trades.
Specs of the boat.
http://www.bana.com/cheetah/c30spec.htm
Conditions. 35 knot winds, 15' seas 15 seconds apart.
You have an asmmetric up and full main hauling ass
when your main starts coming apart. You do not
have a spare main.
What steps should you take next?
What should you not do? (i.e. you should have one
big concern--what is it?)

A couple of big concerns. A boat with a long sprit & a big A-sail like
this will not like heading up, in fact it will probably refuse to do so
and the attempt couold knock the boat down or break some important part
of the rig. So you have to carry on downwind.

Another concern is the loss of support for the mast from the leach of
the main. If you leave the chute up, and try to take the main down, you
will probably break the mast.

The first thing I'd think about is whether or not the thing will hold
together long enough to get into sheltered water. If that's out of the
question, then getting the spinnaker down is the first step.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Seamanship Question #24
 

1 point to you Doug

Seamanship Question #24
 

DSK wrote:
Bart Senior wrote:

You are sailing a Cheetah 30 downwind in the
trades.

Specs of the boat.
http://www.bana.com/cheetah/c30spec.htm

Conditions. 35 knot winds, 15' seas 15 seconds apart.

You have an asmmetric up and full main hauling ass
when your main starts coming apart. You do not
have a spare main.

What steps should you take next?


Hit the rewind button


What should you not do? (i.e. you should have one
big concern--what is it?)


A couple of big concerns. A boat with a long sprit & a big A-sail like
this will not like heading up, in fact it will probably refuse to do so
and the attempt couold knock the boat down or break some important part
of the rig. So you have to carry on downwind.

Another concern is the loss of support for the mast from the leach of
the main. If you leave the chute up, and try to take the main down, you
will probably break the mast.

The first thing I'd think about is whether or not the thing will hold
together long enough to get into sheltered water. If that's out of the
question, then getting the spinnaker down is the first step.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I'm with ya. Get the kite down. But I would like to clarify, where is
the main parting? Would a reef get the torn part of the main out of the
wind?
My primary consideration: I would be concerned with losing the main
completely and not being able to blanket the kite to get it down. If
the main is coming apart the kite can't be far behind. Assuming 8 oz
dacron versus 1.5 oz nylon.

Gary

Seamanship Question #24
 

Good point. Putting a reef in would be a big help.
Tensioning the clue reef line, would help support the mast.

"Gary" wrote

I'm with ya. Get the kite down. But I would like to clarify, where is
the main parting? Would a reef get the torn part of the main out of the
wind?
My primary consideration: I would be concerned with losing the main
completely and not being able to blanket the kite to get it down. If
the main is coming apart the kite can't be far behind. Assuming 8 oz
dacron versus 1.5 oz nylon.

Gary

Seamanship Question #24
 

Tighten the topping lift.

Save the Mast & rig



http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Seamanship Question #24
 

"Gary" wrote
I'm with ya. Get the kite down. But I would like to clarify, where is
the main parting? Would a reef get the torn part of the main out of the
wind?

Good idea, I didn't think of that!

My primary consideration: I would be concerned with losing the main
completely and not being able to blanket the kite to get it down. If
the main is coming apart the kite can't be far behind. Assuming 8 oz
dacron versus 1.5 oz nylon.

I think the Cheetah has a retrieval line, you could get the spinnaker
down anyway although behind the main is easier. It would not be a good
time to try practicing a Mexican take-down!

Bart Senior wrote:
Good point. Putting a reef in would be a big help.
Tensioning the clue reef line, would help support the mast.

Agreed, and I didn't think of it, but I hope I would if it was really
happening... when you look up at the sail, you see these things and
might get the idea.

Another tactic that might work is to do a cockpit take-down: One of the
problems with A-sails is that the luff length is usually such that the
tack can get in the water even with the halyard tight. The crew has to
pull the foot back quickly on take-downs, or you end up going shrimping.
A J-90 sailor told me a few weeks ago that you can let the tack fly as
you round up, and retrieve the chute into the cockpit using the sheet.
The key is to time it right so that the sail blows up & away, as the
boat is turning. But if you try to turn too soon & too fast, the drag of
the sail on the end of the sprit has such leverage that the boat does
not want to head up.

It sounds like a good way to either carry the spinnaker right up to the
last second, or have a real tangle... a win-or-die type move.

Fresh BReezes- Doug King

Seamanship Question #24
 

DSK wrote:
"Gary" wrote

I'm with ya. Get the kite down. But I would like to clarify, where is
the main parting? Would a reef get the torn part of the main out of the
wind?


Good idea, I didn't think of that!

My primary consideration: I would be concerned with losing the main
completely and not being able to blanket the kite to get it down. If
the main is coming apart the kite can't be far behind. Assuming 8 oz
dacron versus 1.5 oz nylon.


I think the Cheetah has a retrieval line, you could get the spinnaker
down anyway although behind the main is easier. It would not be a good
time to try practicing a Mexican take-down!

Bart Senior wrote:

Good point. Putting a reef in would be a big help.
Tensioning the clue reef line, would help support the mast.


Agreed, and I didn't think of it, but I hope I would if it was really
happening... when you look up at the sail, you see these things and
might get the idea.

Another tactic that might work is to do a cockpit take-down: One of the
problems with A-sails is that the luff length is usually such that the
tack can get in the water even with the halyard tight. The crew has to
pull the foot back quickly on take-downs, or you end up going shrimping.
A J-90 sailor told me a few weeks ago that you can let the tack fly as
you round up, and retrieve the chute into the cockpit using the sheet.
The key is to time it right so that the sail blows up & away, as the
boat is turning. But if you try to turn too soon & too fast, the drag of
the sail on the end of the sprit has such leverage that the boat does
not want to head up.

It sounds like a good way to either carry the spinnaker right up to the
last second, or have a real tangle... a win-or-die type move.

Fresh BReezes- Doug King

Thinking further about this question, why would the mast come down if
the main parted? Presumably, when the main is eased all the way out
when running, it doesn't provide any support to the mast. The sail and
mainsheet will only provide support when close-hauled. It is the
shrouds and aft swept spreaders that keep the mast up. I don't think
the rig would come down with no main up. If it did, I wouldn't have one.

Gary

Seamanship Question #24
 

Gary wrote:
Thinking further about this question, why would the mast come down if
the main parted?

Because of the compression load from the spinnaker.

... Presumably, when the main is eased all the way out
when running, it doesn't provide any support to the mast.

Possible, but I doubt it on these boats. Most of the A-sail boats I've
been on, or seen go by, never eased the main out more than about a foot
past the gun'l, except in light air.


... The sail and
mainsheet will only provide support when close-hauled. It is the
shrouds and aft swept spreaders that keep the mast up.

Another issue is that this particular boat (and a number of other
sportboats) have a frac rig & a mast head spinnaker. The top section of
the mast is unsupported except by the main leach, which might not matter
under many conditions... but in 30 knot winds?

... I don't think
the rig would come down with no main up. If it did, I wouldn't have one.


I can see your point, but if you wanna go fast, you have to make
compromises.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Seamanship Question #24
 

DSK wrote:
Gary wrote:

Thinking further about this question, why would the mast come down if
the main parted?


Because of the compression load from the spinnaker.
Compression load is not relieved by having the main up or by having a
backstay.

... Presumably, when the main is eased all the way out when running,
it doesn't provide any support to the mast.


Possible, but I doubt it on these boats. Most of the A-sail boats I've
been on, or seen go by, never eased the main out more than about a foot
past the gun'l, except in light air.
No race boat, sailed by some one who new what they were doing, would run
with the kite up and main sheeted in to the gunnel. It would cause the
boat to round up badly. You must have been much higher on the wind if
the main was sheeted in.


... The sail and mainsheet will only provide support when
close-hauled. It is the shrouds and aft swept spreaders that keep the
mast up.


Another issue is that this particular boat (and a number of other
sportboats) have a frac rig & a mast head spinnaker. The top section of
the mast is unsupported except by the main leach, which might not matter
under many conditions... but in 30 knot winds?
I was racing in the Van-Isle 360 (http://www.vanisle360.com/) when
Casseopia (a turbo'd Davidson 70) lost the top of her rig like that.
Her backstay broke. I think the top section needs support and as
discussed above, it doesn't get it from the main leech.

... I don't think the rig would come down with no main up. If it did,
I wouldn't have one.


I can see your point, but if you wanna go fast, you have to make
compromises.
That is just stupid.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Seamanship Question #24
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:bXbcf.448995$tl2.280282@pd7tw3no...
DSK wrote:
Gary wrote:

Thinking further about this question, why would the mast come down if
the main parted?


Because of the compression load from the spinnaker.
Compression load is not relieved by having the main up or by having a
backstay.

... Presumably, when the main is eased all the way out when running, it
doesn't provide any support to the mast.


Possible, but I doubt it on these boats. Most of the A-sail boats I've
been on, or seen go by, never eased the main out more than about a foot
past the gun'l, except in light air.
No race boat, sailed by some one who new what they were doing, would run
with the kite up and main sheeted in to the gunnel. It would cause the
boat to round up badly. You must have been much higher on the wind if the
main was sheeted in.


... The sail and mainsheet will only provide support when close-hauled.
It is the shrouds and aft swept spreaders that keep the mast up.


Another issue is that this particular boat (and a number of other
sportboats) have a frac rig & a mast head spinnaker. The top section of
the mast is unsupported except by the main leach, which might not matter
under many conditions... but in 30 knot winds?
I was racing in the Van-Isle 360 (http://www.vanisle360.com/) when
Casseopia (a turbo'd Davidson 70) lost the top of her rig like that. Her
backstay broke. I think the top section needs support and as discussed
above, it doesn't get it from the main leech.

Hey, why dincha post up this link?

http://www.vanisle360.com/2005legs/video.php

Amazing, they still managed a 2nd after the mob.

John Cairns

... I don't think the rig would come down with no main up. If it did, I
wouldn't have one.


I can see your point, but if you wanna go fast, you have to make
compromises.
That is just stupid.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Seamanship Question #24
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:bXbcf.448995$tl2.280282@pd7tw3no...

DSK wrote:

Gary wrote:


Thinking further about this question, why would the mast come down if
the main parted?


Because of the compression load from the spinnaker.

Compression load is not relieved by having the main up or by having a
backstay.

... Presumably, when the main is eased all the way out when running, it
doesn't provide any support to the mast.


Possible, but I doubt it on these boats. Most of the A-sail boats I've
been on, or seen go by, never eased the main out more than about a foot
past the gun'l, except in light air.

No race boat, sailed by some one who new what they were doing, would run
with the kite up and main sheeted in to the gunnel.

Really?

What about these guys?

http://www.blewbayou.com/images/Big_Blue_pic2.jpg
http://www.yachtsoft.com/Eagle.HTM

Look at some pics of Melges 24s racing.

.... It would cause the
boat to round up badly. You must have been much higher on the wind if the
main was sheeted in.


The apparent wind shifts far forward on these boats. It has to, for the
A-sail work well. And also, the draft off the leach of the spinnaker is
shifted even further.

Whatever.




I was racing in the Van-Isle 360 (http://www.vanisle360.com/) when
Casseopia (a turbo'd Davidson 70) lost the top of her rig like that. Her
backstay broke. I think the top section needs support and as discussed
above, it doesn't get it from the main leech.


As discussed above, it surely does. Where do you think the tension on
the vang ends up?

Anyway, the issue is not "support" for the mast top, since the opposing
load on the main only adds to the compression. But it keeps it in column.


John Cairns wrote:
Hey, why dincha post up this link?

http://www.vanisle360.com/2005legs/video.php

Amazing, they still managed a 2nd after the mob.

Dang, that's cool. Thanks for the link

... I don't think the rig would come down with no main up. If it did, I
wouldn't have one.


I can see your point, but if you wanna go fast, you have to make
compromises.

That is just stupid.

Maybe so, but a lot of people buy these kinds of boats. FWIW I think
they're a lot of fun. But then I'm not planning on buying one either.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Seamanship Question #24
 

"DSK" wrote

Bart Senior wrote:
Good point. Putting a reef in would be a big help.
Tensioning the clue reef line, would help support the mast.

Agreed, and I didn't think of it, but I hope I would if it was really
happening... when you look up at the sail, you see these things and might
get the idea.

I'm sure you wound. It happened to me once on a J-24. I
reached up and clapped on the reef line and put all my weight
on it. It tensioned up nicely. We dropped the main rather quickly
after that.

Seamanship Question #24
 

For one thing, with swept back spreaders you
can't let the main all the way out. The Cheetah
is also faster downwind on a broad reach than
a run. Tacking downwind is the norm. So the
main would probably not be out all the way. Also
forward pressure of the sail is conteracted by
mainsheet tension.

"Gary" wrote

Thinking further about this question, why would the mast come down if the
main parted? Presumably, when the main is eased all the way out when
running, it doesn't provide any support to the mast. The sail and
mainsheet will only provide support when close-hauled. It is the shrouds
and aft swept spreaders that keep the mast up. I don't think the rig
would come down with no main up. If it did, I wouldn't have one.

Gary

Seamanship Question #24
 

DSK wrote:

Thinking further about this question, why would the mast come down
if the main parted?

Because of the compression load from the spinnaker.

Compression load is not relieved by having the main up or by having a
backstay.

... Presumably, when the main is eased all the way out when
running, it doesn't provide any support to the mast.

Possible, but I doubt it on these boats. Most of the A-sail boats
I've been on, or seen go by, never eased the main out more than
about a foot past the gun'l, except in light air.

No race boat, sailed by some one who new what they were doing, would
run with the kite up and main sheeted in to the gunnel.


Really?

What about these guys?

http://www.blewbayou.com/images/Big_Blue_pic2.jpg
http://www.yachtsoft.com/Eagle.HTM

Look at some pics of Melges 24s racing.
If you look at those boats closely you will see that they are not
running. On the Big Blue page it's hard to see but on the Eagle page
the left pictureb is setting up to blow the kite rounding the mark, he
is not running. The lower picture is close reaching, look at his flag.
Finally, all these guy have backstays.

.... It would cause the boat to round up badly. You must have been
much higher on the wind if the
main was sheeted in.


The apparent wind shifts far forward on these boats. It has to, for the
A-sail work well. And also, the draft off the leach of the spinnaker is
shifted even further.
When the apparent wind comes forward, you are no longer running.

Whatever.




I was racing in the Van-Isle 360 (http://www.vanisle360.com/) when
Casseopia (a turbo'd Davidson 70) lost the top of her rig like that.
Her backstay broke. I think the top section needs support and as
discussed above, it doesn't get it from the main leech.



As discussed above, it surely does. Where do you think the tension on
the vang ends up?
The vang certainly flattens the main when the sheets are eased and no
doubt provides some support for the mast but doesn't hold it up in 30
knots of wind. It is the design of the entire rig that keeps it up.

Anyway, the issue is not "support" for the mast top, since the opposing
load on the main only adds to the compression. But it keeps it in column.


John Cairns wrote:

Hey, why dincha post up this link?

http://www.vanisle360.com/2005legs/video.php

Amazing, they still managed a 2nd after the mob.


Dang, that's cool. Thanks for the link

... I don't think the rig would come down with no main up. If it
did, I wouldn't have one.


I can see your point, but if you wanna go fast, you have to make
compromises.


That is just stupid.


Maybe so, but a lot of people buy these kinds of boats. FWIW I think
they're a lot of fun. But then I'm not planning on buying one either.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King