America is at war
 

OzOne wrote
CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons....

Yup. I saw US agents torturing suspects on TV last night. I'd surfed into a
story about a plot to blow up Los Angeles. I suspect it's truthfulness
because the President of the US was black but it's prolly as factual as some
of the "proof" I've seen here on reeky. Sorry I didn't stay to get the
title, et cetera.

America is at war
 

"Vito" said:
Problem is you keep looking for a US or UK type trial with all the pomp and
circumstance.


Dave wrote:
No, the problem is that you insist on trying to stretch the word "trial"
beyond all recognition. As I understand your position it's that if one
person in authority looks at a prisoner and says "I think he should go to
jail" or "I think he should go to Gitmo" that's a "trial." Perhaps in some
language, but not in English. It's the antithesis of a "trial." It's the
totally arbitrary exercise of raw power.


Agreed, and well said.

If nothing else, Vito can be proud of bringing us together on an issue!

Another point I'd like to add: the notion that just any old body can be
grabbed any old where, and tortured... or held prisoner indefinitely...
is contrary to basic law. Vito's assertion that captives can be held at
whim and shot any time the captor likes, is barbaric.

DSK

America is at war
 

"DSK" wrote
Where?
I'm sorry, I thot you'd read it. Musta been on reeky motorcycles.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Article 4 defines POW.

Also: "Each Party to a conflict is required to furnish the persons under its
jurisdiction who are liable to become prisoners of war, with an identity
card showing the owner's surname, first names, rank, army, regimental,
personal or serial number or equivalent information, and date of birth. The
identity card may, furthermore, bear the signature or the fingerprints, or
both, of the owner, and may bear, as well, any other information the Party
to the conflict may wish to add concerning persons belonging to its armed
forces. As far as possible the card shall measure 6.5 x 10 cm. and shall be
issued in duplicate. The identity card shall be shown by the prisoner of war
upon demand, but may in no case be taken away from him"

Note that those held at Gitmo do not meet these criteria.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

Article 5
Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied
that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in
activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person
shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present
Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person,
be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a
spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile
to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases
where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having
forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

Full text
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...s/geneva1.html

Enjoy!

BTW

Art. 4. Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment
and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or
occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of
which they are not nationals.

Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected
by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of
a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be
regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals
has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are.

Thus a Saudi (for example) caught in Afghanistan and held by the US is not a
"protected person" because we have diplomatic relations with the Saudis.

America is at war
 

"Dave" wrote
....... As I understand your position it's that if one
person in authority looks at a prisoner and says "I think he should go to
jail" or "I think he should go to Gitmo" that's a "trial." .....

That's right! If the prisoner is captured sans uniform or ID card
international law allows it. It may be arbitrary and even barbaric by our
US/UK standards but that is exactly the way most of the world does things.
More important that is the way the people we are talking about do things,
the was they treat themselves, and that is the standard they are trying to
impose on us, and others, by terrorism.

America is at war
 

"DSK" wrote
If nothing else, Vito can be proud of bringing us together on an issue!

Good. Y'all compassionate liberals otta agree on something.

Another point I'd like to add: the notion that just any old body can be
grabbed any old where, and tortured... or held prisoner indefinitely...
is contrary to basic law. Vito's assertion that captives can be held at
whim and shot any time the captor likes, is barbaric.

But Doug, we're not talking about "just any old body" or "any old where".
We are talking about combatants captured out of uniform and without ID
trying to reimpose a system that shot women for learning to read. Nor is it
my assertion. International law says if one wants to be treated like a POW
or Protected Person one must behave like a soldier or a noncombatant. These
people did neither.

America is at war
 

Vito wrote:
But Doug, we're not talking about "just any old body" or "any old where".
We are talking about combatants captured out of uniform and without ID

No, we're talking about people that were handed over to military custody
by OGAs or even allied Afghan local forces. Many of them have a very
murky trail or custody, and an even more distant & foggy body of
evidence against them.

The long and short of it is, there are guys from some place outside the
U.S. (or so the Bush Administration says) who had the bad luck to get
grabbed & imprisoned. Some of them most likely are terrorists, which is
why the military doesn't want to let them go. And if they are granted
any legal process at all, the evidence against them will have to be
produced or they will have to be released.

In other words, they are being locked down for convenience.

A rather strange way of spreading freedom & democracy, don't you think?

.... Nor is it
my assertion. International law says if one wants to be treated like a POW
or Protected Person one must behave like a soldier or a noncombatant. These
people did neither.

You are repeatedly and purposefully missing this point... I'm not
claiming they are POWs. Nobody is claiming that.

OTOH nobody (but you that is) has claimed that theyhave received any
type of hearing, trial, due process, etc etc.

However I *am* claiming (because it is a fact) that there is NO law
saying it's OK to hold prisoners indefinitely, with no reason, no trial,
no due process at all (it's also stupid & expensive, but hey what do you
expect); and as for your claims that it would be legal to torture these
people, or shoot them "at whim" is simply barbaric... as well as being
far outside any law.

DSK

America is at war
 

DSK wrote:


Another point I'd like to add: the notion that just any old body can be
grabbed any old where, and tortured... or held prisoner indefinitely...
is contrary to basic law. Vito's assertion that captives can be held at
whim and shot any time the captor likes, is barbaric.

DSK

Barbric is stomping on hanging, then burning Americans on a bridge,
Barberic is cutting out tongues, cutting off hands, and chopping off
heads while chanting to Allah on TV.
Barbaric is gassing a whole town full of children and women. How about
raping a woman in front of her husband, then killing the husband is
that Barbaric enough?

Your assertion that we are doing things on a whim is idiotic, and
wrong.

Did you get any metals for your service in the Untied States Navy
Doug?

Perhaps you should motor your trawler to Gitmo and toss them over the
fence.

Capt. American

America is at war
 

Capt.American wrote:
Barbric is stomping on hanging, then burning Americans on a bridge,

What about doing the same to non-Americans?

Barberic is cutting out tongues, cutting off hands, and chopping off
heads while chanting to Allah on TV.
Barbaric is gassing a whole town full of children and women. How about
raping a woman in front of her husband, then killing the husband is
that Barbaric enough?


I will bow to your expertise on what is barbaric.

I guess you feel that it's OK for your own leaders to indulge in
barbaric actions?


Your assertion that we are doing things on a whim is idiotic, and
wrong.


Why, because you say so?

Did you get any metals for your service in the Untied States Navy
Doug?

No, but I did get several medals.


Perhaps you should motor your trawler to Gitmo and toss them over the
fence.


Maybe I should wear them on 4th of July... and I do.

DSK

America is at war
 

You have so much concern for the scum at Gitmo, I would think you would
see it as your duty to toss anything you see as a sign of respect for
today's service man, women.

After all they have in your eyes ( and most liberal eyes) become
barbaic, capable of torturing the fine fellows scooped up without cause
from other countries. Our boys have taken away the due process that the
mis-understood captives deserve.

How could you pin on your cheast a medal or ribbon that is a farce and
cover-up for these barbarians?

Toss it over that fence Doug!
People will remember such a firm and clear action.

Remember good men died for you to have that right! Not like todays
Barbarians.

Capt. American

America is at war
 

Capt.American wrote:
You have so much concern for the scum at Gitmo, I would think you would
see it as your duty to toss anything you see as a sign of respect for
today's service man, women.

You are very badly mistaken.

My concern is not at all for the prisoners.



After all they have in your eyes ( and most liberal eyes) become
barbaic, capable of torturing the fine fellows scooped up without cause
from other countries.

Well, some of them have done just that... and the chain of command has
not taken up the slack.


How could you pin on your cheast a medal or ribbon that is a farce and
cover-up for these barbarians?


Because my medals are no such thing.

Why do you want your leaders to act like ignorant & vicious savages? Why
do you glorify the criminal actions, which are the same things done by
the evil tyrant(s) we have fought (several times in history) to displace?

My concern is that some of our proud & profession military will become
no better than politically motivated thugs, stormtroopers with no honor
and no duty towards their country & their fellow citizens, only
obedience towards a cruel & capricious despot. My concern is that if the
United States acts in a barbaric & evil manner, that we will be
barbaric & evil people. Of course, some already are, but so far they are
aberrations rather the norm. You can chose your path, I guess that's
what freedom is for. But you can never make a virtue out of your
glorification of evil.

DSK