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wrote in message On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:13:25 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message I have, in the past, posted pictures of my boat. I'm so sorry you missed them! I really don't give a crap whether you think I have a boat. Crapton's cedar bucket is more of a boat (and a genuine stink pot at that!) than anything you own. If you're so confident about that, you'll have no problem providing me with a website where I can post a photo or two of my boat. Warning: be prepared to be humiliated. Max Sea Sprite 34... Bwahahahahahaha! PHRF 192 for a 34 foot boat? Bwhahahahahahahahaha! SAD 15.3? Bwhahahahahaha! Yeah, that's a real show stopper! The PHRF rating is a gift. It sails way beyond it's rating. My particular boat won second place in its division in the Chicago-Mac. And it embarrasses supposedly faster boats regularly. A Catalina 34 (PHRF 144), for example, can't stay with her on any point of sail. Off the wind with main and chute I pass 410 Hunters like they are going backward. And a POS C&C 27 couldn't keep my transom in sight. Envy is an ugly thing, Blowhard. Max |
Sea Slug more like! Shows Maxine is all show and no go!
CN wrote in message Sea Sprite 34... Bwahahahahahaha! PHRF 192 for a 34 foot boat? Bwhahahahahahahahaha! SAD 15.3? Bwhahahahahaha! Yeah, that's a real show stopper! BB |
PHFR? What is that? Penetrating Holistic Radio Frequency? May as well be for any real-life the old handicap has. Truth be known, Cut the Mustard is faster over the long haul than most boats in the 30-foot range unless they have folding or feathering props or unless the voyage is in nothing but heavy air. Face it, any voyage is a combination of light, heavy and no air. By virtue of the fact my Coronado 27 has no propeller in the water whatsoever and has a lovingly faired hull and keel, she is far faster in lighter air than any heavy, unfaired and propeller-laden thirty-footer. Admit to yourself that much of the time you sail you sail in light air. Take any week at random in the month of September and lay out a course between Key Largo and George Town in the Bahamas. Start on a pre-arranged day and time and I will put up my boat's title against any thirty-foot cruising mono here with the stipulation that motors cannot be used and I will own that thirty-footer. Any takers? CN "Dave" wrote in message ... On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:23:40 -0500, Capt. Neal® said: If you ever got a chance to sail a nice, fast and manageable boat such as my fine, blue water Coronado 27 that has an excellent turn of speed What was that boat's PHRF again, Neil? |
Performance Comparison LOA Sea Sprite 34 34.08
C&C 27 Mark V 26.8 LWL Sea Sprite 34 24.26 C&C 27 Mark V 23 Beam Sea Sprite 34 10.4 C&C 27 Mark V 9.3 Displacement Sea Sprite 34 13208 C&C 27 Mark V 4720 Sail Area Sea Sprite 34 535 C&C 27 Mark V 342.85 Capsize Ratio Sea Sprite 34 1.76 C&C 27 Mark V 2.22 Hull Speed Sea Sprite 34 6.6 C&C 27 Mark V 6.43 Sail Area to Displacement Sea Sprite 34 15.32 C&C 27 Mark V 19.5 Displacement to LWL Sea Sprite 34 413 C&C 27 Mark V 173 LWL to Beam Sea Sprite 34 2.33 C&C 27 Mark V 2.47 Motion Comfort Sea Sprite 34 32.9 C&C 27 Mark V 15.38 Pounds/Inch Sea Sprite 34 902 C&C 27 Mark V 764 wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:43:49 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:13:25 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message I have, in the past, posted pictures of my boat. I'm so sorry you missed them! I really don't give a crap whether you think I have a boat. Crapton's cedar bucket is more of a boat (and a genuine stink pot at that!) than anything you own. If you're so confident about that, you'll have no problem providing me with a website where I can post a photo or two of my boat. Warning: be prepared to be humiliated. Max Sea Sprite 34... Bwahahahahahaha! PHRF 192 for a 34 foot boat? Bwhahahahahahahahaha! SAD 15.3? Bwhahahahahaha! Yeah, that's a real show stopper! The PHRF rating is a gift. It sails way beyond it's rating. My particular boat won second place in its division in the Chicago-Mac. And it embarrasses supposedly faster boats regularly. A Catalina 34 (PHRF 144), for example, can't stay with her on any point of sail. Off the wind with main and chute I pass 410 Hunters like they are going backward. And a POS C&C 27 couldn't keep my transom in sight. Envy is an ugly thing, Blowhard. Max Then by definition, you are the ugliest! Your boat is a slow, ungainly tub. My C&C 27, with a LOA of 26.6, has a PHRF of 168. Your piece of **** has no more interior space than my boat, is slower, and basically falls short of every mark. The only way you could overtake me would be if Sea Tow was pulling you. SAD of 15.3... Yeah, keep telling us how fast your Sea Slug 34 is!!! You are so completely busted. Bwahahahahahaha! BB |
Here's mine.....
Performance Comparison LOA Nordica 30 29.49 C&C 27 Mark V 26.8 LWL Nordica 30 25 C&C 27 Mark V 23 Beam Nordica 30 9.77 C&C 27 Mark V 9.3 Displacement Nordica 30 10220 C&C 27 Mark V 4720 Sail Area Nordica 30 502 C&C 27 Mark V 342.85 Capsize Ratio Nordica 30 1.8 C&C 27 Mark V 2.22 Hull Speed Nordica 30 6.7 C&C 27 Mark V 6.43 Sail Area to Displacement Nordica 30 17.06 C&C 27 Mark V 19.5 Displacement to LWL Nordica 30 292 C&C 27 Mark V 173 LWL to Beam Nordica 30 2.56 C&C 27 Mark V 2.47 Motion Comfort Nordica 30 28.57 C&C 27 Mark V 15.38 Pounds/Inch Nordica 30 873 C&C 27 Mark V 764 "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... wrote in message On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:13:25 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message I have, in the past, posted pictures of my boat. I'm so sorry you missed them! I really don't give a crap whether you think I have a boat. Crapton's cedar bucket is more of a boat (and a genuine stink pot at that!) than anything you own. If you're so confident about that, you'll have no problem providing me with a website where I can post a photo or two of my boat. Warning: be prepared to be humiliated. Max Sea Sprite 34... Bwahahahahahaha! PHRF 192 for a 34 foot boat? Bwhahahahahahahahaha! SAD 15.3? Bwhahahahahaha! Yeah, that's a real show stopper! The PHRF rating is a gift. It sails way beyond it's rating. My particular boat won second place in its division in the Chicago-Mac. And it embarrasses supposedly faster boats regularly. A Catalina 34 (PHRF 144), for example, can't stay with her on any point of sail. Off the wind with main and chute I pass 410 Hunters like they are going backward. And a POS C&C 27 couldn't keep my transom in sight. Envy is an ugly thing, Blowhard. Max |
Having sailed on Max's boat, and having sailed alongside of Max's boat, and
having seen Max's boat blast by some surprising other boat's, I'd say that Max's boat is not the norm for your average crab crusher...and when he throws the spinnaker up it boogies... "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:vCtTd.3184$ab2.273@edtnps89... Performance Comparison LOA Sea Sprite 34 34.08 C&C 27 Mark V 26.8 LWL Sea Sprite 34 24.26 C&C 27 Mark V 23 Beam Sea Sprite 34 10.4 C&C 27 Mark V 9.3 Displacement Sea Sprite 34 13208 C&C 27 Mark V 4720 Sail Area Sea Sprite 34 535 C&C 27 Mark V 342.85 Capsize Ratio Sea Sprite 34 1.76 C&C 27 Mark V 2.22 Hull Speed Sea Sprite 34 6.6 C&C 27 Mark V 6.43 Sail Area to Displacement Sea Sprite 34 15.32 C&C 27 Mark V 19.5 Displacement to LWL Sea Sprite 34 413 C&C 27 Mark V 173 LWL to Beam Sea Sprite 34 2.33 C&C 27 Mark V 2.47 Motion Comfort Sea Sprite 34 32.9 C&C 27 Mark V 15.38 Pounds/Inch Sea Sprite 34 902 C&C 27 Mark V 764 wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:43:49 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:13:25 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message I have, in the past, posted pictures of my boat. I'm so sorry you missed them! I really don't give a crap whether you think I have a boat. Crapton's cedar bucket is more of a boat (and a genuine stink pot at that!) than anything you own. If you're so confident about that, you'll have no problem providing me with a website where I can post a photo or two of my boat. Warning: be prepared to be humiliated. Max Sea Sprite 34... Bwahahahahahaha! PHRF 192 for a 34 foot boat? Bwhahahahahahahahaha! SAD 15.3? Bwhahahahahaha! Yeah, that's a real show stopper! The PHRF rating is a gift. It sails way beyond it's rating. My particular boat won second place in its division in the Chicago-Mac. And it embarrasses supposedly faster boats regularly. A Catalina 34 (PHRF 144), for example, can't stay with her on any point of sail. Off the wind with main and chute I pass 410 Hunters like they are going backward. And a POS C&C 27 couldn't keep my transom in sight. Envy is an ugly thing, Blowhard. Max Then by definition, you are the ugliest! Your boat is a slow, ungainly tub. My C&C 27, with a LOA of 26.6, has a PHRF of 168. Your piece of **** has no more interior space than my boat, is slower, and basically falls short of every mark. The only way you could overtake me would be if Sea Tow was pulling you. SAD of 15.3... Yeah, keep telling us how fast your Sea Slug 34 is!!! You are so completely busted. Bwahahahahahaha! BB |
Ya know, comparing fin keel boats to crab crushers is really just an
exercise in futility...they are made for different kinds of sailing under different conditions and for different temperaments...so comparing a Nordica or a Sea Sprite with a C&C is sort of like comparing pomegranates with bananas...they're both fruit, and that's about all they share... It's sort of like Joe's specious arguments about steel boats. Not everyone who sails wants to be tied to invest in Brillo for the rest of their lives...so why can't we all just be glad for the boats we have and agree that the only boats not worth having are Mac 26X's and M's and Coronado 27's? "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:vCtTd.3184$ab2.273@edtnps89... Performance Comparison LOA Sea Sprite 34 34.08 C&C 27 Mark V 26.8 LWL Sea Sprite 34 24.26 C&C 27 Mark V 23 Beam Sea Sprite 34 10.4 C&C 27 Mark V 9.3 Displacement Sea Sprite 34 13208 C&C 27 Mark V 4720 Sail Area Sea Sprite 34 535 C&C 27 Mark V 342.85 Capsize Ratio Sea Sprite 34 1.76 C&C 27 Mark V 2.22 Hull Speed Sea Sprite 34 6.6 C&C 27 Mark V 6.43 Sail Area to Displacement Sea Sprite 34 15.32 C&C 27 Mark V 19.5 Displacement to LWL Sea Sprite 34 413 C&C 27 Mark V 173 LWL to Beam Sea Sprite 34 2.33 C&C 27 Mark V 2.47 Motion Comfort Sea Sprite 34 32.9 C&C 27 Mark V 15.38 Pounds/Inch Sea Sprite 34 902 C&C 27 Mark V 764 wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:43:49 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:13:25 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: wrote in message I have, in the past, posted pictures of my boat. I'm so sorry you missed them! I really don't give a crap whether you think I have a boat. Crapton's cedar bucket is more of a boat (and a genuine stink pot at that!) than anything you own. If you're so confident about that, you'll have no problem providing me with a website where I can post a photo or two of my boat. Warning: be prepared to be humiliated. Max Sea Sprite 34... Bwahahahahahaha! PHRF 192 for a 34 foot boat? Bwhahahahahahahahaha! SAD 15.3? Bwhahahahahaha! Yeah, that's a real show stopper! The PHRF rating is a gift. It sails way beyond it's rating. My particular boat won second place in its division in the Chicago-Mac. And it embarrasses supposedly faster boats regularly. A Catalina 34 (PHRF 144), for example, can't stay with her on any point of sail. Off the wind with main and chute I pass 410 Hunters like they are going backward. And a POS C&C 27 couldn't keep my transom in sight. Envy is an ugly thing, Blowhard. Max Then by definition, you are the ugliest! Your boat is a slow, ungainly tub. My C&C 27, with a LOA of 26.6, has a PHRF of 168. Your piece of **** has no more interior space than my boat, is slower, and basically falls short of every mark. The only way you could overtake me would be if Sea Tow was pulling you. SAD of 15.3... Yeah, keep telling us how fast your Sea Slug 34 is!!! You are so completely busted. Bwahahahahahaha! BB |
wrote in message On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:43:49 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: Envy is an ugly thing, Blowhard. Max Then by definition, you are the ugliest! How anyone alive could envy anything about you or your possessions is a mystery. Your boat is a slow, ungainly tub. My C&C 27, with a LOA of 26.6, has a PHRF of 168. Your piece of **** has no more interior space than my boat, is slower, and basically falls short of every mark. The only way you could overtake me would be if Sea Tow was pulling you. SAD of 15.3... Yeah, keep telling us how fast your Sea Slug 34 is!!! Okay, Bob****. Or is it Jax? You are so completely busted. You are so completely in error, but predictable considering who you are. Max |
"katysails" wrote in message Having sailed on Max's boat, and having sailed alongside of Max's boat, and having seen Max's boat blast by some surprising other boat's, I'd say that Max's boat is not the norm for your average crab crusher...and when he throws the spinnaker up it boogies... Numbers seldom tell the whole story. Of course Braindead Bill the Blowhard has a serious case of size envy, so he pretends that size does not matter. And the more I think about it, he really does sound like Jax. Max |
wrote in message I never said it was ugly. In fact, I think it has nice lines. It's a Bill Luders design, from the hand of the man who designed winning America's Cup racers in the mid-20th Century. His designs were all rule-beaters, and this boat is no exception. Your contention that it's a slug is dead wrong, and shows your complete lack of experience and knowledge regarding sailing vessels. You depend upon numbers, ratings, and emperical findings, which are meaningless in the real world. If you knew anything about boats, you'd discover that boats seldom perform to their numbers, except in very specific conditions, generally flat water, winds of 8-10kts. and such. For example, a friend's Westsail 32 is almost untouchable in winds over 20kts. He walks away from Catalina 42s and 387s which can't carry enough sail in those conditions to maintain any decent turn of speed. He sailed alongside a Chicago-Mac racer of roughly 40', with lots of railmeat to hold her upright, for nearly 10 miles in 30kts. You wouldn't have left your slip in such conditions. No doubt you believe the Westsail 32 to be a slug. I just said it was a slug, which it is. The C&C is not a "lovely little lake boat", it's a fast, light, coastal cruiser. That's what I use it for, and it excels. MixUp's Sea Slug 34 may be suitable for slow, log passages, but he doesn't ever do that. He's a near-shore coastal LAKE sailor, who makes sure he is at a dock when the sun sets. His boat is not suited for what he does with it. Its also slow as molasses. In 5 kts. it sails at roughly 3kts. (GPS). In 10kts. it sails at 5.5kts. That's slow as molasses? At 20kts. with a single reef taken it sails beyond hull speed, generally in the range of 7.5 with bursts to 8 in gusts. That's slow? It does 3-4' closely-spaced chop with ease, while boats such as yours pound their occupants and make them seasick. It's anything but "slow as molasses. I'd love the opportunity to show you just how "slow" it is in a boat vs. boat comparison. No doubt you'd do what we see quite often from boats that can't believe a boat with a 24' waterline is beating their boat: a tack or gybe to sail the other direction and end their humiliation. I'm not at all envious of a Sea slug 34. Maxprop never crosses oceans, so it's "possible" advantages are never utilized. While strong enough by any standard, the Sea Sprites aren't ocean boats. C. E. Ryder, the builder, never claimed they were. He built a line of boats for that purpose: the Southern Cross series. The Sea Sprites are all CCA-type sleek yachts with damn fine looks, excellent sailing manners, comfortable accommodations for the crew, and not by any means slow. They aren't crab crushers, rather a different genera of boat entirely. But I wouldn't expect you to know that. For that matter I wouldn't expect you to know much at all, as you've so willingly demonstrated with your insipid posts. Rather than continue to appear ignorant, consider reading Ferenc Mate's chapter on the Sea Sprite 34 (he calls it a Luders 34) in his book, Best Boats. It's one of his favorites, and he makes a rather strong statement that the boat is not slow. Offhand I don't recall seeing your boat in that book. . . . Max |
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message Sea Slug more like! Shows Maxine is all show and no go! Another "numbers sailor" with no apparent real world experience. You guys are so incredibly transparent. Max |
katysails wrote:
Ya know, comparing fin keel boats to crab crushers is really just an exercise in futility...they are made for different kinds of sailing under different conditions But they most often have to sail the same waters & the same conditions... hard as as it is for the Crab Crusher Mafia to swallow, fin keel boats have sailed round Cape Horn... in fact I bet by now that more fin keelers have... ... and for different temperaments... Yes indeed, there's the real point. It's sort of like Joe's specious arguments about steel boats. Not everyone who sails wants to be tied to invest in Brillo for the rest of their lives...so why can't we all just be glad for the boats we have and agree that the only boats not worth having are Mac 26X's and M's and Coronado 27's? Even the Mac26X and the Coronado 27 have some redeeming features. The Mac26X is the best floatable camping trailer ever built; the Coronado 27 is cheap & roomy and serves as a reminder of the cultural emptiness of it's era. Every time I see one, I think of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In.... DSK |
Maxprop wrote:
wrote in message I never said it was ugly. In fact, I think it has nice lines. It's a Bill Luders design, from the hand of the man who designed winning America's Cup racers in the mid-20th Century. His designs were all rule-beaters, and this boat is no exception. Luders was a great designer, but America's Cup was not hs best genre. Weatherly was a rework of a Rhodes design (built by Luders), and might have lost to the faster Gretel were it not for the aggressive handling of Bud Mosbacher. I agree completely with the rest of your comments. IIRC, Mate gushed over the Luders 34. |
It's a Bill Luders design, from the hand of the man who designed
winning America's Cup racers in the mid-20th Century. His designs were all rule-beaters, and this boat is no exception. Jeff Morris wrote: Luders was a great designer, but America's Cup was not hs best genre. Weatherly was a rework of a Rhodes design (built by Luders), and might have lost to the faster Gretel were it not for the aggressive handling of Bud Mosbacher. I agree completely with the rest of your comments. IIRC, Mate gushed over the Luders 34. The Luders Navy Yawls were the best of the best http://www.navypaxsail.com/Yawls.htm and I think that most sailors my age or a bit older (or at least, the ones that have their eyes open) will have drooled over the Luders 16 http://www.l16.org/ I've seen some bigger Luders racer/cruisers with much the same look, the Sea Sprites are a lot less extreme. While the long stretched-out overhangs look really elegant, they throw spray and they're a great way to get small-boat accomodation in a big boat LOA. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... Maxprop wrote: wrote in message I never said it was ugly. In fact, I think it has nice lines. It's a Bill Luders design, from the hand of the man who designed winning America's Cup racers in the mid-20th Century. His designs were all rule-beaters, and this boat is no exception. Luders was a great designer, but America's Cup was not hs best genre. Weatherly was a rework of a Rhodes design (built by Luders), and might have lost to the faster Gretel were it not for the aggressive handling of Bud Mosbacher. I agree completely with the rest of your comments. IIRC, Mate gushed over the Luders 34. We were a bit like BB, I'm sorry to admit, when a SS 34 became available. We looked at the numbers and concluded it must be a slug. But then we saw Mate's writeup and decided to give the boat a look and a sea trial. Blew us away, it did. What BB and others fail to realize is that those CCA boats had long overhangs, and when heeled the effective waterline increased dramatically, effectively allowing a faster hull speed. Downwind the short waterline length is an advantage w/r/t wetted surface area minimized. Rating rules are calculations based upon measurements, and such rules can be beaten. For example, my boat has a 7/8 fractional rig, which gives her an even greater rating advantage. Luders relished beating the rules, and even when he showed the ratings gurus where they had loopholes, they ignored him. So he beat them at their own game regularly. The SS 34 is easily as quick as a Catalina 34, which is probably why they do so well in handicap racing. Her PHRF rating is a gift, compliments of Bill Luders. Max |
Maxprop wrote:
Rating rules are calculations based upon measurements, and such rules can be beaten. For example, my boat has a 7/8 fractional rig, which gives her an even greater rating advantage. Luders relished beating the rules, and even when he showed the ratings gurus where they had loopholes, they ignored him. So he beat them at their own game regularly. The SS 34 is easily as quick as a Catalina 34, which is probably why they do so well in handicap racing. Her PHRF rating is a gift, compliments of Bill Luders. So how do you figure that? PHRF is supposed to based on a design's performance, not its measurements. If a boat consistently outperforms its rating, the rating is changed. What you say would only hold true if very few are raced, or if the average SS34 skipper was a turkey. |
"DSK" wrote in message The Luders Navy Yawls were the best of the best http://www.navypaxsail.com/Yawls.htm and I think that most sailors my age or a bit older (or at least, the ones that have their eyes open) will have drooled over the Luders 16 http://www.l16.org/ I've seen some bigger Luders racer/cruisers with much the same look, the Sea Sprites are a lot less extreme. While the long stretched-out overhangs look really elegant, they throw spray and they're a great way to get small-boat accomodation in a big boat LOA. True on both counts. Spray is a given with our boat in the right conditions, but we have a dodger and bimini, so it's not a problem. And yes, the accommodations are roughly equal to a 31' boat of broader beam and more modern design. The narrow beam of the CCA boats does, however, allow them to be very slippery through the water. A friend's new Catalina 350 drags her transom something awful, leaving a turbulent wake behind the boat. Our boat leaves virtually nothing behind. It's often deceptive, it's so quiet. One has to go forward to see and hear the bow wave to convince the senses that we really are moving along with a good turn of speed. Max |
"DSK" wrote in message But they most often have to sail the same waters & the same conditions... hard as as it is for the Crab Crusher Mafia to swallow, fin keel boats have sailed round Cape Horn... in fact I bet by now that more fin keelers have... Doubtful, unless you're discounting the centuries when multi-masted cargo ships rounded the Horn in lieu of the Panama Canal, which was not yet constructed. Even the Mac26X and the Coronado 27 have some redeeming features. The Mac26X is the best floatable camping trailer ever built; the Coronado 27 is cheap & roomy and serves as a reminder of the cultural emptiness of it's era. Every time I see one, I think of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In.... Sock it to me. Max |
Maxprop wrote:
So he beat them at their own game regularly. The SS 34 is easily as quick as a Catalina 34, which is probably why they do so well in handicap racing. Her PHRF rating is a gift, compliments of Bill Luders. Umm, Jeff is right. PHRF is not a measurement rule, it's a performance rating. If you beat your handicap by a lot, the rating committee is supposed to adjust it downward (faster) a little. DSK |
.... While the long stretched-out overhangs
look really elegant, they throw spray and they're a great way to get small-boat accomodation in a big boat LOA. Maxprop wrote: True on both counts. Spray is a given with our boat in the right conditions, but we have a dodger and bimini, so it's not a problem. And yes, the accommodations are roughly equal to a 31' boat of broader beam and more modern design. This is a sistership of one of my family's boats when I was a teenager (and dinosaurs roamed the Earth) http://www.woodship.com/fleet/tarna/default.aspx Later I owned a share in a converted 6-meter, which unfortunately I don't have any pictures of. That type of hull is lovely, seakindly, and the better ones can really sail. ... The narrow beam of the CCA boats does, however, allow them to be very slippery through the water. A friend's new Catalina 350 drags her transom something awful, leaving a turbulent wake behind the boat. Yes, but that's a question of volume distribution. At certain speed length ratios, it's actually more efficient. Look at the prismatic coefficient. It's not elegant though. Our boat leaves virtually nothing behind. It's often deceptive, it's so quiet. One has to go forward to see and hear the bow wave to convince the senses that we really are moving along with a good turn of speed. I used to lay on my back on the fantail, steering with my feet and looking up at the mainsail leach. It is very good view of the rig and almost totally dissociates one from everything else... a Zen state. Why worry about the wake? It will take care of itself ;) Anyway, this hull form was originated with the Universal & International Rules, which were measurement rules that taxed waterline. So long overhangs became "rule beaters" and fashionable. The common explanation that these overhangs immerse and lengthen the waterline when heeled is at least partly true. There's a Luders 40-something sloop that is IMHO one of the most drop-dead gorgeous boats ever built. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
You should know the Rules so the next time you are solo
sailing, drunk and passed out, you can put the "Red over Red Captain is Dead" lights up while you sleep it your drunken binge. This is so everyone else can steer well clear, or else sneak aboard and tie your shoe laces together. grin "Capt. Mooron" wrote What are "the COLREGS" ?????? For a liveaboard you seem awfully anal & uptight You guys and your petty little discussions regarding a set of rules that in your cases is not enforceable, carries almost no weight in court and is subject to wide interpretation... well it's so darn amusing! Here's a friggin hint..... It's a big ocean and you're on a very little boat.... stay the **** out of the way of everything bigger and faster. Leave the rules to the racers, professionals and their vessels. Do you really think I give a **** about who is to windward and who is burdened if I'm being overtaken?? Nothing is more comical and dangerous than a sailboat assuming right of way over a larger commercial vessel. If it's another sailboat I'll give all the room I can.... If it's a bigger boat or power vessel I'll provide as much room as they need. I cruise.... I'm never in a rush... even the odd time I race. Plus my vessel is armed to the teeth with water balloon launchers..... I got one that has a 200 yard range!! Imagine the havoc a gas filled balloon and a flare gun could create! :-) CM "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I can't help but notice how our part-time Canadian sailor is too chicken to answer the COLREGs questions. CN "Gull Rock's" wrote in message ... Great place for Navigation rules http://www.boats.com/reeds/jsp/rn_ch_1_l_a.jsp |
There was actually a case where a ship claimed rights as a RAM because
the crew had the flu. They were held liable for the ensuing incident. Bart Senior wrote: You should know the Rules so the next time you are solo sailing, drunk and passed out, you can put the "Red over Red Captain is Dead" lights up while you sleep it your drunken binge. This is so everyone else can steer well clear, or else sneak aboard and tie your shoe laces together. grin "Capt. Mooron" wrote What are "the COLREGS" ?????? For a liveaboard you seem awfully anal & uptight You guys and your petty little discussions regarding a set of rules that in your cases is not enforceable, carries almost no weight in court and is subject to wide interpretation... well it's so darn amusing! Here's a friggin hint..... It's a big ocean and you're on a very little boat.... stay the **** out of the way of everything bigger and faster. Leave the rules to the racers, professionals and their vessels. Do you really think I give a **** about who is to windward and who is burdened if I'm being overtaken?? Nothing is more comical and dangerous than a sailboat assuming right of way over a larger commercial vessel. If it's another sailboat I'll give all the room I can.... If it's a bigger boat or power vessel I'll provide as much room as they need. I cruise.... I'm never in a rush... even the odd time I race. Plus my vessel is armed to the teeth with water balloon launchers..... I got one that has a 200 yard range!! Imagine the havoc a gas filled balloon and a flare gun could create! :-) CM "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I can't help but notice how our part-time Canadian sailor is too chicken to answer the COLREGs questions. CN "Gull Rock's" wrote in message ... Great place for Navigation rules http://www.boats.com/reeds/jsp/rn_ch_1_l_a.jsp |
Jeff Morris wrote:
There was actually a case where a ship claimed rights as a RAM because the crew had the flu. They were held liable for the ensuing incident. ROFLMAO Did you get the name of the lawyer? I may want him/her on retainer for vivid imagination sake. otn |
otnmbrd wrote:
Jeff Morris wrote: There was actually a case where a ship claimed rights as a RAM because the crew had the flu. They were held liable for the ensuing incident. ROFLMAO Did you get the name of the lawyer? I may want him/her on retainer for vivid imagination sake. otn The ship entered port show RAM shapes. This case gets cited to show that you actually have to be a RAM (or NUC) to avoid liability. I'll have to dig it up (its in Farwells) to see if it implies negligence. |
Jeff Morris wrote:
otnmbrd wrote: Jeff Morris wrote: There was actually a case where a ship claimed rights as a RAM because the crew had the flu. They were held liable for the ensuing incident. ROFLMAO Did you get the name of the lawyer? I may want him/her on retainer for vivid imagination sake. otn The ship entered port show RAM shapes. This case gets cited to show that you actually have to be a RAM (or NUC) to avoid liability. I'll have to dig it up (its in Farwells) to see if it implies negligence. ROFL I can understand their reasoning. I was on a ship where a particularly virulent strain of flu went through the ship. We were at sea, and 95% were bed ridden and unable to stand watch. Those of us who were not, maintained the watches for a long period and luckily kept us out of trouble. otn |
otnmbrd wrote:
Jeff Morris wrote: otnmbrd wrote: Jeff Morris wrote: There was actually a case where a ship claimed rights as a RAM because the crew had the flu. They were held liable for the ensuing incident. ROFLMAO Did you get the name of the lawyer? I may want him/her on retainer for vivid imagination sake. otn The ship entered port show RAM shapes. This case gets cited to show that you actually have to be a RAM (or NUC) to avoid liability. I'll have to dig it up (its in Farwells) to see if it implies negligence. ROFL I can understand their reasoning. I was on a ship where a particularly virulent strain of flu went through the ship. We were at sea, and 95% were bed ridden and unable to stand watch. Those of us who were not, maintained the watches for a long period and luckily kept us out of trouble. otn I found such a case (not quite what I was remembering): In 1969, in the Dover Straits, good visibility but F8 wind, a ship, the "Djerba," had been subjected to four days of heavy weather and was carrying NUC lights, even though they had full use of the engine and steering. There was, of course, a collision, and the Admiralty Court held that Djerba was in breach for showing the light when not entitled. Further, because she otherwise was the give-way vessel, she was not relieved of that responsibility. Djerba was apportioned 60% of the blame, and it was upheld on appeal. |
hard as as it is for the Crab Crusher Mafia to swallow, fin keel boats
have sailed round Cape Horn... in fact I bet by now that more fin keelers have... Maxprop wrote: Doubtful, unless you're discounting the centuries when multi-masted cargo ships rounded the Horn in lieu of the Panama Canal, which was not yet constructed. Discounting them, there's no doubt at all that fin keelers would be in the majority. Including the old commercial sailing vessels, it might be a closer call than you think... how many rounded the Horn in a given year on average? Anyway, it's for sure that no more are going to, so it's only a matter of time. DSK |
DSK wrote:
hard as as it is for the Crab Crusher Mafia to swallow, fin keel boats have sailed round Cape Horn... in fact I bet by now that more fin keelers have... Maxprop wrote: Doubtful, unless you're discounting the centuries when multi-masted cargo ships rounded the Horn in lieu of the Panama Canal, which was not yet constructed. Discounting them, there's no doubt at all that fin keelers would be in the majority. Including the old commercial sailing vessels, it might be a closer call than you think... how many rounded the Horn in a given year on average? Anyway, it's for sure that no more are going to, so it's only a matter of time. You've raised an interesting question he Is it proper to call the old windjammers "crab crushers," or more specifically, do they have a full length keel? Since they didn't carry any significant external ballast, and the keels don't' provide much lateral resistance, they aren't really a related design. As for numbers, there were thousands of roundings over the centuries. |
"DSK" wrote in message hard as as it is for the Crab Crusher Mafia to swallow, fin keel boats have sailed round Cape Horn... in fact I bet by now that more fin keelers have... Maxprop wrote: Doubtful, unless you're discounting the centuries when multi-masted cargo ships rounded the Horn in lieu of the Panama Canal, which was not yet constructed. Discounting them, there's no doubt at all that fin keelers would be in the majority. Including the old commercial sailing vessels, it might be a closer call than you think... how many rounded the Horn in a given year on average? I really don't have that info, but based on the quantity of East-West trade during the 1800s and the early 1900s, I'd suspect it was in the hundreds, if not thousands. Anyway, it's for sure that no more are going to, Beyond an occasional "vintage" vessel celebration, this is true. so it's only a matter of time. Yes. The fin keel has replaced the full keel in terms of sheer numbers, and certainly where racing vessels, which comprise a large number of Horn-rounders, are concerned. Max Max |
"DSK" wrote in message Maxprop wrote: So he beat them at their own game regularly. The SS 34 is easily as quick as a Catalina 34, which is probably why they do so well in handicap racing. Her PHRF rating is a gift, compliments of Bill Luders. Umm, Jeff is right. PHRF is not a measurement rule, it's a performance rating. If you beat your handicap by a lot, the rating committee is supposed to adjust it downward (faster) a little. I believe you are right. However, considering that there were only 46 Sea Sprite 34s built, and most of them never saw a handicap race course, it stands to reason that the few of them that have raced *may* have been handled poorly by their owner/skippers, yielding a high numerical rating. Most SS 34s are class-raced, not PHRF raced, so the rating wouldn't change. What I do know is that I can sail my boat well beyond her rating, considering that the Catalina 34 rates at 144 with a fin keel, and I can consistently leave them behind on all points of sail, save hard to windward, where we roughly equal each other. Same with a Tartan 34 (older) with a keel/CB. The C34s and the Tartans have been sailed by competent sailors, since you were bound to question this. They've been as surprised by my boat as have I. When on the hard, they shake their heads when they see her modified full keel. Boats,such as the J35, which were sailed by professional teams en masse when it first was released, have ratings to which the average sailor cannot sail. This supports your contention that the PHRF ratings do change with racing results. My boat placed second in its class in the Chicago Mac with her former owner. I don't know if PHRF is the handicap rating used in that race or not. Max |
"DSK" wrote in message .... While the long stretched-out overhangs look really elegant, they throw spray and they're a great way to get small-boat accomodation in a big boat LOA. Maxprop wrote: True on both counts. Spray is a given with our boat in the right conditions, but we have a dodger and bimini, so it's not a problem. And yes, the accommodations are roughly equal to a 31' boat of broader beam and more modern design. This is a sistership of one of my family's boats when I was a teenager (and dinosaurs roamed the Earth) Stop! You're little more than a child. g http://www.woodship.com/fleet/tarna/default.aspx Later I owned a share in a converted 6-meter, which unfortunately I don't have any pictures of. That type of hull is lovely, seakindly, and the better ones can really sail. A friend has an Etchells 22 at our lake. Similar to a 6M, it is poetry to sail and even more beautiful to watch ghost by in nearly no wind with no wake. ... The narrow beam of the CCA boats does, however, allow them to be very slippery through the water. A friend's new Catalina 350 drags her transom something awful, leaving a turbulent wake behind the boat. Yes, but that's a question of volume distribution. At certain speed length ratios, it's actually more efficient. Look at the prismatic coefficient. It's not elegant though. This is correct. But it certainly seems counterproductive--as you say, inelegant. Our friend's 33' Beneteau Oceanis does not drag its transom in that way, but does leave a noticeable stern wake. Our boat leaves virtually nothing behind. It's often deceptive, it's so quiet. One has to go forward to see and hear the bow wave to convince the senses that we really are moving along with a good turn of speed. I used to lay on my back on the fantail, steering with my feet and looking up at the mainsail leach. It is very good view of the rig and almost totally dissociates one from everything else... a Zen state. Why worry about the wake? It will take care of itself ;) Anyway, this hull form was originated with the Universal & International Rules, which were measurement rules that taxed waterline. So long overhangs became "rule beaters" and fashionable. The common explanation that these overhangs immerse and lengthen the waterline when heeled is at least partly true. There's a Luders 40-something sloop that is IMHO one of the most drop-dead gorgeous boats ever built. From a designer who penned boats hulls for speed and rules-beating, Luders certainly made some lovely designs. We came across a one-off, mid-50s 46' Luders daysailer (!) in Maine two years ago. You'd have loved that boat, with her flush decks and towering fractional rig. And she moved like Luciano Pavarotti sings. Max |
Jeff Morris wrote: DSK wrote: hard as as it is for the Crab Crusher Mafia to swallow, fin keel boats have sailed round Cape Horn... in fact I bet by now that more fin keelers have... Maxprop wrote: Doubtful, unless you're discounting the centuries when multi-masted cargo ships rounded the Horn in lieu of the Panama Canal, which was not yet constructed. Discounting them, there's no doubt at all that fin keelers would be in the majority. Including the old commercial sailing vessels, it might be a closer call than you think... how many rounded the Horn in a given year on average? Anyway, it's for sure that no more are going to, so it's only a matter of time. You've raised an interesting question he Is it proper to call the old windjammers "crab crushers," or more specifically, do they have a full length keel? Since they didn't carry any significant external ballast, and the keels don't' provide much lateral resistance, they aren't really a related design. As for numbers, there were thousands of roundings over the centuries. |
Jeff Morris wrote:
You've raised an interesting question he Is it proper to call the old windjammers "crab crushers," I wouldn't think so. I don't think of Maxprop's boat as a crab crusher either, well maybe an honorary one, or a distant in-law. ... or more specifically, do they have a full length keel? Yes, definitely. ... Since they didn't carry any significant external ballast, and the keels don't' provide much lateral resistance, they aren't really a related design. I'd tend to agree, somewhat. The evolution of clipper hulls & then windjammers tended toward making effective use of keel flat & garboards as lateral plane. But then, because of their size & speed, the lateral plane could be much smaller in proportion to the rig & the rest of the hull. By contrast, smaller boats need a larger lateral plane and gain more benefit from dropping the ballast lower. You see this in workboat types as they developed into more specialized & capable vessels... in all types that had to do any significant windward sailing, the lateral plane got bigger & better defined... Friendship sloops are a good exmple of a later type, or the catboats with huge centerboards. So: a crab-crusher is really just a fin keeler that evolution has left behind! ;) As for numbers, there were thousands of roundings over the centuries. Sure. But then, how many fin keelers have rounded the Horn in the last 50 year? I'd think it would easily be in the thousands. Going on several maritime history articles, AFAIK the average number of commercial sailing vessel roundings peaked at about 200 per year in the mid 1800s, and would have been less than 100 per year prior to 1820. Hey Bart here's a points question for you... what was the first U.S. Navy vessel to sail around Cape Horn? Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Maxprop wrote:
I believe you are right. However, considering that there were only 46 Sea Sprite 34s built, and most of them never saw a handicap race course, it stands to reason that the few of them that have raced *may* have been handled poorly by their owner/skippers, yielding a high numerical rating. Maybe so. It wouldn't even have to be poor handling, just unfavorable conditions, mediocre sails or working sails (PHRF assumes you have a 155), etc etc. A preliminary rating might have been issued, and never revised or revised only slightly (in the absense of protests). Flying Tadpole wrote about the screeching & howling arising from racers beaten by a traditional boat. Maybe in the case of your boat, it wasn't so loud. Most SS 34s are class-raced, not PHRF raced, so the rating wouldn't change. What I do know is that I can sail my boat well beyond her rating, considering that the Catalina 34 rates at 144 with a fin keel, and I can consistently leave them behind on all points of sail, save hard to windward, where we roughly equal each other. Same with a Tartan 34 (older) with a keel/CB. The C34s and the Tartans have been sailed by competent sailors, since you were bound to question this. They've been as surprised by my boat as have I. When on the hard, they shake their heads when they see her modified full keel. You also have a frac rig, and I assume it's properly tuned & has good sails. Little things add up, although clearly the boat has to be capable in the first place. In your boat's case, the numbers are quite deceiving. That short waterline makes the boat look like heavy & slow... but if you plug in say 27' instead of 24' for LWL, a realistic guesstimate of what the *sailing* waterline might be, the D/L goes from 400 (serious crab-crusher) to 290... putting her in a range competitive with the Catalina & Tartan. Boats,such as the J35, which were sailed by professional teams en masse when it first was released, have ratings to which the average sailor cannot sail. This supports your contention that the PHRF ratings do change with racing results. They absolutely do. A lot of people get off on bragging about their boat's PHRF rating, such as Boobsprit, it's true that some boats have earned ratings that are almost impossible to sail to in club racing. It's also true that there are a lot of boats out there racing with clapped-out sails, untuned rigs, or some other serious defect, with owners bitching their "impossible" rating. All that said, PHRF is not a bad system for allowing a bunch of people with boats they chose for whatever reason to go out and have fun bashing around the bouys. My boat placed second in its class in the Chicago Mac with her former owner. I don't know if PHRF is the handicap rating used in that race or not. Probably yes. There are IMS and Americap classes in the Mac but AFAIK most of the fleet is racing under PHRF. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
"Maxprop" wrote: Let's take a vote: Who would rather have Mooron Who would rather have Neal Hmmm, decisions, decisions...oh wait, you were talking about sailboats, weren't you? ;-) LP |
BBob did indeed post a pic of his boat. For some reason I saved it.
Here it is; http://www.enter.net/photoalbum/data...non/807193.JPG Scotty "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... wrote in message On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:33:44 -0500, Capt. Neal® wrote: I can't help but notice how our part-time Canadian sailor is too chicken to answer the COLREGs questions. CN He's very busy trying to find Cambridge, Massachucetts on a free gas station map. He's a complete, and very lost, lubber, you realize... While tossing charges of lubberdom about, why is it we've never seen any evidence of your purported boat? Do you own one, or are you strictly a ner-do-well malcontent with too much time on his hands and nothing to sail? Max |
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