Joe wrote:
wasent Endeavour, the lovely J-class yacht that had been built in 1934
as an America's Cup contender made of steel?


You're right, Joe. I was wrong.

Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes, is. And I think Endeavor II was steel, also.

You should say "Endeavor II *is* steel" although none her hull is original.

... Perhaps DSK should
have said "no steel yacht won the America's Cup."

Having thought about it for a minute or so, IIRC Ranger was also built
of steel. Herreshoff had been building boats with steel frames and
lighter material for decades before, but I think the then-new technique
of welding hull plating allowed lighter all-steel construction.

That still doesn't make Joe's boat any faster, nor help with his rust
problem.

I should have said "no steel boat has won the America's Cup since before
WW2, and none have ever won any other races."

How about a nice cup of carbon fiber, Joe!

DSK

DSK wrote:
Joe wrote:

wasent Endeavour, the lovely J-class yacht that had been built in 1934
as an America's Cup contender made of steel?


You're right, Joe. I was wrong.

Jeff Morris wrote:

Yes, is. And I think Endeavor II was steel, also.


You should say "Endeavor II *is* steel" although none her hull is original.

I thought the Endeavor II was scrapped shortly after its defeat in '37.
It was the first Endeavor that was rebuilt at great cost.


... Perhaps DSK should have said "no steel yacht won the America's Cup."


Having thought about it for a minute or so, IIRC Ranger was also built
of steel. Herreshoff had been building boats with steel frames and
lighter material for decades before, but I think the then-new technique
of welding hull plating allowed lighter all-steel construction.

About 38 years ago a group of us young fools checked out a Starling
Burgess designed, Herreshoff built (1926?) M-class yacht, Prestige, that
was for sale for under $2000. It was in sad shape - stripped out
completely. The lead keel was long gone (melted for bullets in WWII)
and replaced with concrete. The mast, once the worlds tallest aluminum
mast, was replaced with two telephone poles. We hauled it for a survey,
but the report was that too many of the steel frames were rusted out,
and it would have cost a fortune to make her seaworthy. Fortunately, we
had the sense to pass on the deal!

Some years later, I met a couple who had bought her and were living
aboard. They had dreams of long distance cruising but were realizing
the impossibility of resurrecting the old beauty. About 5 years after
that (1979?) I found the yacht aground on Spectacle Island in Boston
Harbor. It laid there, abandoned, for a season.

The M-Class is a variation on the J-class, though somewhat smaller. It
was used as a "club racer" in the late 20's through the 50's.


Parameter M-Class 12-Metre
LOA 83'0" 67'0"
DWL 54'7" 45'0"
Beam 14'0" 12'0"
Draft 10'6" 8'11"
Displ. 96,000 lbs. 55,000 lbs.
Sail (rated) 3100 sq. ft. 1900 sq. ft.
Rig Height 104' 82'
Sail : Displ 4.88 4.59
Displ : length 264 269


There's a description of the M-class here. There's a picture of the
Prestige is about a third of the way down.
http://www.universalrule.com/page1/body.html

You should say "Endeavor II *is* steel" although none her hull is
original.


Jeff Morris wrote:
I thought the Endeavor II was scrapped shortly after its defeat in '37.
It was the first Endeavor that was rebuilt at great cost.


You're right, I was wrong again... must be something in the coffee. I
thought it was Endeavor 2 that was rescued, but it was Endeavor 1.


Having thought about it for a minute or so, IIRC Ranger was also built
of steel. Herreshoff had been building boats with steel frames and
lighter material for decades before, but I think the then-new
technique of welding hull plating allowed lighter all-steel construction.


Except that Donal's link tells us Ranger was flush-riveted.


About 38 years ago a group of us young fools checked out a Starling
Burgess designed, Herreshoff built (1926?) M-class yacht, Prestige, that
was for sale for under $2000. It was in sad shape - stripped out
completely. The lead keel was long gone (melted for bullets in WWII)
and replaced with concrete. The mast, once the worlds tallest aluminum
mast, was replaced with two telephone poles. We hauled it for a survey,
but the report was that too many of the steel frames were rusted out,
and it would have cost a fortune to make her seaworthy. Fortunately, we
had the sense to pass on the deal!


You could have gone ahead and laminated in sister frames, or gone to
night school and learned to weld.

It would have been horribly expensive anyway, think what a suit of sails
for this boat would have cost.

Some years later, I met a couple who had bought her and were living
aboard. They had dreams of long distance cruising but were realizing
the impossibility of resurrecting the old beauty. About 5 years after
that (1979?) I found the yacht aground on Spectacle Island in Boston
Harbor. It laid there, abandoned, for a season.


Did anybody ever restore it?

A long time ago, a friend and I were given an old (1930s) 6-meter. We
rebuilt it with a variety of less-expensive composites and put the rig
off a T-10 on it. Cool boat, I saw it for sale on Yachtworld a few
months ago.

The M-Class is a variation on the J-class, though somewhat smaller. It
was used as a "club racer" in the late 20's through the 50's.


Yes, all the Universal Rule classes had letter designations.. the "O"
and "P" class was smaller than M, the "I" class (don't know if any were
ever built) were larger than the J-class.

Like the 6, 8, and 12-Meters, they were mostly used for round-the-bouys
racing but even the little ones tended to have at least rudimentary
cabins and were cruised in by some. I spent a couple of week long
cruises on my 6-Meter including some time singlehanding.



There's a description of the M-class here. There's a picture of the
Prestige is about a third of the way down.
http://www.universalrule.com/page1/body.html


I think this guy is glorifying the class and the rule. A modern M could
in no way keep up with a sled and would be too much of a leadmine to be
really "seaworthy." It'd be a really pretty boat though. Both the
Universal Rule and the Int'l Rule (used for the meter classes) tend to
produce very heavy boats.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:


... but the report was that too many of the steel frames
were rusted out, and it would have cost a fortune to make her
seaworthy. Fortunately, we had the sense to pass on the deal!


You could have gone ahead and laminated in sister frames, or gone to
night school and learned to weld.

We were willing to do a few, but there were sections where a lot of
frames in a row were bad. And the surveyor felt that the frames should
be removed for inspection ... it was just way too much.




It would have been horribly expensive anyway, think what a suit of sails
for this boat would have cost.

Some years later, I met a couple who had bought her and were living
aboard. They had dreams of long distance cruising but were realizing
the impossibility of resurrecting the old beauty. About 5 years after
that (1979?) I found the yacht aground on Spectacle Island in Boston
Harbor. It laid there, abandoned, for a season.


Did anybody ever restore it?

No, scavengers pulled off the teak deck pretty quickly - before I could
get back for a second visit, and the hull didn't survive the fall storms.

Spectacle Island has a long and varied history - It was an early
quarantine station, it had several gambling/bawdy houses around 1840, it
had the horse rendering facility for many years, and was a garbage dump
until 1959. When I used to visit in the 70's the ground was still
burning. In the 90's it was used as the dump for the Big Dig project,
and it has grown considerably n size and height.

It is now park of the Boston Harbor Islands national Park. The site of
the wreck is where they have built a marina that will be open this summer.


A long time ago, a friend and I were given an old (1930s) 6-meter. We
rebuilt it with a variety of less-expensive composites and put the rig
off a T-10 on it. Cool boat, I saw it for sale on Yachtworld a few
months ago.


Sounds neat! You can still get a very similar boat: the slightly
smaller International One Designs are still very active, and I think a
few of the original boats are still racing. I've heard they are a 5.5
meter, but I don't think that's exactly true. They were certainly
inspired by the 6 Meter class.


The M-Class is a variation on the J-class, though somewhat smaller.
It was used as a "club racer" in the late 20's through the 50's.


Yes, all the Universal Rule classes had letter designations.. the "O"
and "P" class was smaller than M, the "I" class (don't know if any were
ever built) were larger than the J-class.

Like the 6, 8, and 12-Meters, they were mostly used for round-the-bouys
racing but even the little ones tended to have at least rudimentary
cabins and were cruised in by some. I spent a couple of week long
cruises on my 6-Meter including some time singlehanding.


Over 90 S-Class boats were built by Herreshoff - they had a 60'th
reunion in 79 where over 20 showed up to race. You still spot them on
occasion in the traditional New England harbors.




There's a description of the M-class here. There's a picture of the
Prestige is about a third of the way down.
http://www.universalrule.com/page1/body.html


I think this guy is glorifying the class and the rule. A modern M could
in no way keep up with a sled and would be too much of a leadmine to be
really "seaworthy."

I'd agree with the first part, though not the second. Remember, the
Universal Rule was created, in part, so that racing boats would be more
seaworthy - before that designs are only limited by SA and LWL trade
offs, and they were getting rather radical.

It'd be a really pretty boat though. Both the
Universal Rule and the Int'l Rule (used for the meter classes) tend to
produce very heavy boats.

DSK wrote:

It was the first Endeavor that was rebuilt at great cost.


You're right, I was wrong again... must be something in the coffee.


Ye Gods! Wrong twice in one thread, next you'll be telling me that Bush won the election. ;-)

Maybe you've been skewered by Cupid?

Cheers
Marty

Herreshoff must be one of thoses dummies bashing into things and going
where bullits fly.

Rust is not a problem. It is easier and cheaper to fix than any
fiberglass problem. Thats the facts.

Your distain of steel is due to your mental images of past morrons
abusing and using steel in ways that rub you wrong. Get over it, with
todays epoxies and coatings... steel is the best all around material
for building any vessel.

But I must admit... Upkeep of a steel boat is almost as labor
intensive as a plastic boat.

Joe

Did anybody ever restore it?


Jeff Morris wrote:
No, scavengers pulled off the teak deck pretty quickly - before I could
get back for a second visit, and the hull didn't survive the fall storms.


That's a real shame. One of the nice things that has happened over the
intervening years is that appreciation for the old classic yachts has
grown and a lot of new money is being poured into restoring them. It's
an expensive hobby though.


Spectacle Island has a long and varied history - It was an early
quarantine station, it had several gambling/bawdy houses around 1840, it
had the horse rendering facility for many years, and was a garbage dump
until 1959. When I used to visit in the 70's the ground was still
burning. In the 90's it was used as the dump for the Big Dig project,
and it has grown considerably n size and height.

Haven't been up there recently but I used to sail around the islands a
lot, we used to stop at Peddocks and hike up the hill. My nephew loved
the WW2 bunkers up there.



It is now park of the Boston Harbor Islands national Park. The site of
the wreck is where they have built a marina that will be open this summer.


Interesting... we'll definitely have to check it out next time we're up
there (which probably won't be for a while, gone are the days of taking
the trailerable for a 2 day trip to New England)



Sounds neat! You can still get a very similar boat: the slightly
smaller International One Designs are still very active, and I think a
few of the original boats are still racing. I've heard they are a 5.5
meter, but I don't think that's exactly true. They were certainly
inspired by the 6 Meter class.


Yes and so were the Shields. There was a similar class under the
Universal Rule called the'R' class but the ones that have survived tend
to be more extreme IMHO. They are 40-footers with roughly the same size
cockpit & all the luxurious accomodation of a Lightning.



Over 90 S-Class boats were built by Herreshoff - they had a 60'th
reunion in 79 where over 20 showed up to race. You still spot them on
occasion in the traditional New England harbors.


The S-boats are a legend. I've raced them and they are a lot of fun to
sail, good in light air... they take a lot of babying though. 'Way back
when, I made a friend for life in a boat basin in Marseille... as a
broke young squid wandering the docks, I spotted an S-boat and stood
there ogling her. The owner popped his head up and started interrogating
me. I had just enough French to convince him that I sincerely admired
his boat and asked if he had sailed it over himself...


http://www.universalrule.com/page1/body.html


I think this guy is glorifying the class and the rule. A modern M
could in no way keep up with a sled and would be too much of a
leadmine to be really "seaworthy."


I'd agree with the first part, though not the second. Remember, the
Universal Rule was created, in part, so that racing boats would be more
seaworthy - before that designs are only limited by SA and LWL trade
offs, and they were getting rather radical.

It'd be "seaworthy" in the sense that it would have a very high LPOS,
but it would be more like a submarine than a sailboat. The very heavy
D/L ratio combined with low freeboard and the long overhanging ends
would bring a LOT of water onto & over the decks. Of course an 80+
footer is going to shrug off conditions that would be threatening to a
smaller boat of similar type. So I can see your point, but IMHO a boat
like this isn't going to be more "seaworthy" than a modern type of the
same LOA... rather less IMHO. Of course it would definitely be more
seaworthy than some of the big Edwardian era racing sloops that preceded
the original M-class... maybe that is what this guy meant?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Joe wrote:
Herreshoff must be one of thoses dummies bashing into things and going
where bullits fly.


Actually, Herreshoff built a number of steel boats for the U.S. Navy.

So in other words, yep.

Rust is not a problem. It is easier and cheaper to fix than any
fiberglass problem. Thats the facts.

Except that fiberglass can be fixed for good, and does not degrade... a
problem of disposal more than anything else.

Steel will eventually deteriorate to powder.


Your distain of steel is due to your mental images of past morrons
abusing and using steel in ways that rub you wrong.

No, my "distain" (overdue for a scrubbing?) of steel comes from it's
basic engineering properties. It's nice for building bridges out of, or
large commercial ships, but it is too heavy for smaller vessels.

Please note that the America's Cup racers you'd like to point to as an
example of fine steel construction were
1- all very much larger than your boat
2- all built before WW2 when modern materials were not available
3- mostly scrapped very soon after
4- the very few surviving have been entirely rebuilt.

Shortly after recommissioning Endeavor, Elizabeth Meyers pointed to the
transom of Ranger hanging in the main salon and said, "We could have
named the rebuilt boat 'Ranger' since there's just as much of Ranger in
her as Endeavor."



... with
todays epoxies and coatings... steel is the best all around material
for building any vessel.


I don't believe that for a second. The coatings have to be perfectly
applied in the perfect environment to be effective in the long run, and
any slight nick or scratch will destroy them.

You forget Joe, I work around a lot of steel structures and equipment...
rust is a perpetual headache.


But I must admit... Upkeep of a steel boat is almost as labor
intensive as a plastic boat.


Yeah, "almost" like a horseshoe or a hand grenade

But hey, steel makes a great Faraday cage so you don't have to wear your
tinfoil beanie 24/7

DSK

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

Donal wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
wasent Endeavour, the lovely J-class yacht that had been built in
1934
as an America's Cup contender made of steel?

Correct!

I found this link while I was trying to prove that you were wrong. I
must
admit that I had thought that she was built of wood.


She's a sweet boat and still sailing the Atlantic. Steel is a great
material in the right hands.

Thanks for the link Donal I did also notice in your link that Endeavor
II was also steel and had the tallest mast ever on any Americas cup
boat.

Here's a couple more links. I posted them a couple of years ago, so you
might have seen them before.


Velsheda:-

http://www.lanode.com/priv/amcup/id29.htm


Endeavour:-

http://www.lanode.com/priv/amcup/id41.htm


Endeavour, Shamrock, Velsheda and Cambria:-
http://www.lanode.com/priv/amcup/id44.htm





Regards


Donal
--

Since when has MD 20/20 been called 'cold Celtic blood"?


"katysails" scribble thusly:

Don't worry, Wally...that will never happen...all that cold Celtic blood
that runs through my veins is only temporarily rendered warm by a bowl of
oatmeal...