"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

I would guess the Firth of Forth is covered under the International Rules
but I would have to see a chart and the demarcation line to know for sure.

Almost all of it has shipping traffic, certainly further uptream than where
we race. It is covered by the international rules, as are those who race
there - the RRS do not replace the colregs. In racing, of course, close
quarters and overtaking situations are quite common, and Rule 13 is both
applicable and applied.


Negative, I am saying, in the circumstance where I am sailing out in
International
Rule waters, like crossing the Gulf Stream, it is unnecessary and
dangerous to
pass close to other vessels. A small course correction, done early and in
accordance
to sailing rule 12, makes Rule 13 superfluous.

You're saying that Rule 13 doesn't apply to you, in your situation, but
you're implying that it's superfluous to all by using of generalised
terminology. Your argument is fallacious - you're arguing from the specific
to the general.

As a matter of interest, what would you do if another sailboat approached
you, such that a close quarters situation will arise? Would you maintain a
half mile distance to avoid finding yourself in a Rule 13 situation?

The Columbia 26 has a different hull.

It is much slower. I've sailed with a few and they can't keep up.
(but neither can most cruising boats.)

One reason may be the extra drag the motor well forward of the
rudder causes in those Columbia 26s

CN

"Dave" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:21 -0500, Capt. Neal®
said:

fast, blue water, Coronado 27

LOL

Would that be the fast, blue water, Coronado 27 OB with a PHRF of 228, or
the fast blue water coronado 27 IB with a PHRF of 234?

BTW, according to what I see the Coronado 27 is the same hull as the
Columbia 26-2.

Well, there was some "artist" who had an exhibit made entirely of his own
crap, so it doesn't surprise me that Neal has a Coronado and claims it's a
work of art.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On 31 Jan 2005 16:46:03 -0600, Dave wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:21 -0500, Capt. Neal®
said:

fast, blue water, Coronado 27

LOL

Would that be the fast, blue water, Coronado 27 OB with a PHRF of 228, or
the fast blue water coronado 27 IB with a PHRF of 234?

BTW, according to what I see the Coronado 27 is the same hull as the
Columbia 26-2.

The Coronado 27 is to sailboats, what Billy Beer was to beer. It has an
audience, but the audience is not exactly interested in quality. Some
people
actually collect Yugos as a hobby. Neal doesn't have much to grab on to in
his
life, so he exaggerates what little he has.

BB

Capt. Neal® wrote:
Again, you miss the point. One is only bound by Rule 13 if one is in an
overtaking situation. This is the only situation where Rule 13 applies.

When two sailing vessels are following Rule 12, overtaking situations
do not occur because if the two vessels follow Rule 12 and avoid a
close quarters situation there is never any need to overtake. Any passing
can and should be done a distance.

This is one of the stupidest things you've said. Your telling us that
you're terrified of getting close enough to another boat for the basic
rules to apply!

Mind you, the two vessels I am
talking about are sailing in open water. I think you, being a lubber,
are always thinking narrow channels, etc. where Rule 13 can and does
apply.

The reason Rule 13 does not apply between two sailing vessels in open
water is because if the two sailing vessels are following the dictates
of Rule 12 (and other applicable rules depending on the situation)

You mean like Rule 13?

Rule 13 does not come into play.

Why not? If a boat comes up from directly behind it is neither windward
nor leeward according to the Colregs.



For example, I am sailing my fast, blue water, Coronado 27 of the starboard
tack, close-hauled. I am approaching another vessel such as a C&C 32 which
is a very slow boat, also sailing close-hauled on the starboard tack.

Rule 12 tells me that the C&C is the stand-on vessel because he is to
weather.

How can you make such a blunder and still call yourself a sailor????

However, he is neither windward or leeward, according to the Colregs.
You are overtaking.



Therefore, I follow Rule 12 and fall off and pass him at over a half
mile of
distance. This does not meet the definition of overtaking in any way shape
or form.

You're scared ****less of getting within a half mile of another boat!!!

By adhering to the sailing rules, I avoid "overtaking" the C&C but
I still end up ahead of him. I am still downwind of him so he is still the
stand-on vessel. By virtue of the fact that I followed the dictates of Rule
12, Rule 13 was superfluous.

You went half a mile out of your way! What a PUTZ!

Try to understand these simple truths.

These are the simple truths:
So far in this thread you've confessed that you don't know the rules,
that you don't feel you have to follow then, twice you've mixed up
windward and leeward, and you admitted you're so terrified of other
boats you go a half mile out of your way to avoid them.

You've turned into the ultimate lubberly PUTZ, Neal! Did Booby steal
your identity?

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

Capt. Neal® wrote:
International Rules apply on open water.
Inland Rules apply on inland water.

Rule 12 makes Rule 13 superfluous in any case where
there is enough water to make overtaking unnecessary
because there is plenty of space to avoid being close
enough to have to overtake and pass at close quarters.

This is extremely logical and evident. I fail to see why
people can't seem to get it.

You're saying that the boat that might be said to be overtaking should
avoid the close quarters situation by staying clear of the other boat?
Isn't this following Rule 13?

Wally wrote in message
k...
"Edgar" wrote in message news:3vxLd.6799

No you did not, and I quote from your post on 30/01/ 05 "I don't know
what
it says in the Colregs..."
You then go on to talk about overlaps in racing. Get a clue.

Selective, decontextualised bull****. You're grasping at straws already.

Yes, it is bull**** but it was you that said it. i only reminded you of what
you said


Get another clue, dummy - I was referring to the overtakING boat. If
he's
upwind and can't point any higher, he can tack away to avoid a
collision.

That is nonsense. Why should an overtakING boat tack right away from his
desired course when he can ease sheets, pick up speed and pass clear to
leeward of the overtaken boat? Think about it. Go or a sail sometime.
Be
careful out there...

Where did I say that tacking away was his only choice?

No you didn't but you said it was 'a' choice and if you had thought about
it for a bit you would have seen how stupid that would be for a boat that
was attempting an overtakING.manoeuvre.
But hey! I see from some of your subsequent postings that you have taken the
trouble to get hold of and read the Colregs since your initial admission
that you did not know what was in them. So there may be hope after all.
I'll leave you to it.

Edgar wrote:
Wally wrote in message
k...

"Edgar" wrote in message news:3vxLd.6799


No you did not, and I quote from your post on 30/01/ 05 "I don't know

what

it says in the Colregs..."
You then go on to talk about overlaps in racing. Get a clue.

Selective, decontextualised bull****. You're grasping at straws already.


Yes, it is bull**** but it was you that said it. i only reminded you of what
you said

Nonsense Eddy, you're as bad a reader as Neal. Wally just said that he
didn't know what the Colregs said about "overlaps." Perhaps you'd care
to tell us how the Colregs defines them?




Get another clue, dummy - I was referring to the overtakING boat. If

he's

upwind and can't point any higher, he can tack away to avoid a

collision.


That is nonsense. Why should an overtakING boat tack right away from his
desired course when he can ease sheets, pick up speed and pass clear to
leeward of the overtaken boat? Think about it. Go or a sail sometime.

Be

careful out there...

Where did I say that tacking away was his only choice?


No you didn't but you said it was 'a' choice and if you had thought about
it for a bit you would have seen how stupid that would be for a boat that
was attempting an overtakING.manoeuvre.

I guess you never race - this happens all the time in races, especially
with dissimilar boats. Those that can point a bit higher often force
boats to weather to tack. Much can be said about this, but I leave that
to others who have raced more recently than I.

I've also seen this happen often with cruising boats. In Boston harbor
the smaller club boats which can point high often force the larger boats
to tack. Ducking below can mean losing several boat lengths.

Jeff Morris wrote in message
...
Edgar wrote:
Wally wrote in message
k...

"Edgar" wrote in message news:3vxLd.6799
Nonsense Eddy, you're as bad a reader as Neal. Wally just said that he
didn't know what the Colregs said about "overlaps." Perhaps you'd care
to tell us how the Colregs defines them?

If Wally had read the colregs on overtaking he would know there is nothing
said about 'overlaps'. He went on to show that he knew that the racing rules
had 'stuff' in them about overlaps, as indeed they have but Wally better be
clear about the 'stuff' before he gets into a close quarter situation in a
race


I guess you never race - this happens all the time in races, especially
with dissimilar boats. Those that can point a bit higher often force
boats to weather to tack. Much can be said about this, but I leave that
to others who have raced more recently than I.

I do not race now but I raced dinghies in highly competitive classes for
many years before I took up cruising, so I did refer in an earlier post that
it sometimes pays to 'tack away' in certain situations when racing.

I've also seen this happen often with cruising boats. In Boston harbor
the smaller club boats which can point high often force the larger boats
to tack. Ducking below can mean losing several boat lengths.

Jeff, I have never sailed in Boston Harbour but I have sculled the Head of
the Charles a couple of times so know only the upper reaches. What you say
is quite common if both boats are racing but in the absence of any local
harbour directives the Colregs would apply in the harbour unless the
skippers of both boats were certain both were racing. Having said that
however, when I am cruising and not racing I keep out of the way of racing
boats as a matter of courtesy even if I have to tack, but if I did not do so
and another boat knew I was not racing, or was not sure, then they would
have to obey the Colregs. Not that I would bank on a harbour racing
skipper to know anything about them so discretion would always be sensible
:-)

Sorry about the late reply - this got lost in the noise

Edgar wrote:
Jeff Morris wrote in message
...

Edgar wrote:

Wally wrote in message
o.uk...


"Edgar" wrote in message news:3vxLd.6799

Nonsense Eddy, you're as bad a reader as Neal. Wally just said that he
didn't know what the Colregs said about "overlaps." Perhaps you'd care
to tell us how the Colregs defines them?


If Wally had read the colregs on overtaking he would know there is nothing
said about 'overlaps'.

Not many of us have studied the ColRegs well enough to know what words
are not used.

He went on to show that he knew that the racing rules
had 'stuff' in them about overlaps, as indeed they have but Wally better be
clear about the 'stuff' before he gets into a close quarter situation in a
race

It would be well to know, but Wally showed no particular ignorance.



I guess you never race - this happens all the time in races, especially
with dissimilar boats. Those that can point a bit higher often force
boats to weather to tack. Much can be said about this, but I leave that
to others who have raced more recently than I.


I do not race now but I raced dinghies in highly competitive classes for
many years before I took up cruising, so I did refer in an earlier post that
it sometimes pays to 'tack away' in certain situations when racing.


Yes, it happens in almost every race. Since pointing high and going
fast are often two different strategies, its very common.

I've also seen this happen often with cruising boats. In Boston harbor
the smaller club boats which can point high often force the larger boats
to tack. Ducking below can mean losing several boat lengths.


Jeff, I have never sailed in Boston Harbour but I have sculled the Head of
the Charles a couple of times so know only the upper reaches. What you say
is quite common if both boats are racing but in the absence of any local
harbour directives the Colregs would apply in the harbour unless the
skippers of both boats were certain both were racing. Having said that
however, when I am cruising and not racing I keep out of the way of racing
boats as a matter of courtesy even if I have to tack, but if I did not do so
and another boat knew I was not racing, or was not sure, then they would
have to obey the Colregs. Not that I would bank on a harbour racing
skipper to know anything about them so discretion would always be sensible
:-)

All of this is true, but I never said the club boats were racing. There
are four or five sailing clubs in the inner harbor which have a lot of
recreational sailing. Its fairly easy for a small boat to point high in
constrained waters, but a lazy cruiser is not as likely to trim the jib
well enough to outpoint them.

If the club boats are racing (which they do several nights a week) it is
a common courtesy to stay well clear. However, one point that has been
often discussed here is how much room should you give to a straggler,
who may be a mile behind the rest of the fleet?

Jeff Morris wrote in message
...
Sorry about the late reply - this got lost in the noise
If the club boats are racing (which they do several nights a week) it is
a common courtesy to stay well clear. However, one point that has been
often discussed here is how much room should you give to a straggler,
who may be a mile behind the rest of the fleet?

That is a rather difficult one. Once I was sailing up the middle of the
Solent against the tide so as to keep clear of a whole lot of racing boats
that were working up in the slack water close inshore. I overtook a small
yacht who asked me 'Are you racing?' When I replied 'no' he said 'well,
**** off out of it then'. I pointed out to him that all his opponents were
well inshore out of the tide and leaving him well behind. He took a look at
them and without another word went inshore to join them...!