Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Capt. Neal® wrote:
...


Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel
is always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.


Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13:

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B,
Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of
the way of the vessel being overtaken.

What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret
as meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13?

How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's
exam, when you seem confused by this simple point?



Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly.


Nonsense. He's approaching from behind. All you're saying is that if
you ignore Rule 13 until its too late, then you might have to take
some extreme action. Long before the windward vessel is "trapped" he
could have borne off and passed to leeward. Or he could have tacked
away.

The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel.


Why can't he tack?

He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation,


Why can't he pass to leeward?

and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things

depend on the speed of the wind.


Why can't he let go of the sheets?

These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is
plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.


Its becoming clear you don't actually know how to sail. Is this why
you didn't bother to get your sailing endorsement, even though it only
involved answering a few easy questions?


Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't
cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations.


This is a meaningless comment. You're only saying that an alternate
version of the sailing rules could have been invented - one that
doesn't include the overtaking rule. For example, the yacht racing
rules handle overtaking quite differently. However, they are not the
issue here. The Colregs are quite clear the Rule 13 takes priority,
and it is the responsibility of the overtaking vessel to avoid getting
so close that it can't keep clear of the overtaken vessel.


You didn't give me a plausible scenario where if the sailing rules are
adhered to then why is Rule 13 necessary?

I did - all you're saying is that if the rules were written differently
they would still be self-consistent. They might have said Rule 13 does
not have priority over Rule 12, but they didn't.


It is plain to me if the three simple sailing rules are followed then there
is no need for any stupid overtaking rule. The overtaking rule becomes
entirely superfluous.

Perhaps in a different world. There is no reason why the rules always
have to make sense, but they still must be followed. As I said, in
racing the rules are different, but still self-consistent.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
This is a meaningless comment. You're only saying that an alternate
version of the sailing rules could have been invented - one that doesn't
include the overtaking rule. For example, the yacht racing rules handle
overtaking quite differently. However, they are not the issue here.
The Colregs are quite clear the Rule 13 takes priority, and it is the
responsibility of the overtaking vessel to avoid getting so close that
it can't keep clear of the overtaken vessel.

But it's not meaningless. Take any two sailboats on any point of sail
where overtaking takes place and the situation is already covered by
one of the three sailing rules. If the sailing rules are followed, then
there is no need for Rule 13. For sailboats, Rule 13 is superfluous.
This is why Rule 13 is qualified by the notwithstanding word.

I can't say it any plainer than that. All it takes for you to disprove
what I am saying is to come up with one scenario where if two sailboats
are following the rules that an extra rule covering overtaking is needed.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

This is a meaningless comment. You're only saying that an alternate
version of the sailing rules could have been invented - one that
doesn't include the overtaking rule. For example, the yacht racing
rules handle overtaking quite differently. However, they are not the
issue here. The Colregs are quite clear the Rule 13 takes priority,
and it is the responsibility of the overtaking vessel to avoid getting
so close that it can't keep clear of the overtaken vessel.


But it's not meaningless. Take any two sailboats on any point of sail
where overtaking takes place and the situation is already covered by
one of the three sailing rules. If the sailing rules are followed, then
there is no need for Rule 13. For sailboats, Rule 13 is superfluous.
This is why Rule 13 is qualified by the notwithstanding word.

Are you now questioning the meaning of "notwithstanding"? Clearly Rules
12 and 13 have different implications for which vessel is Give-way in
some situations. This is why they included the word "notwithstanding"
to say that Rule 13 take priority.



I can't say it any plainer than that. All it takes for you to disprove
what I am saying is to come up with one scenario where if two sailboats
are following the rules that an extra rule covering overtaking is needed.

Whether an extra rule is "needed" is irrelevant. The rule is there and
it explicitly takes priority. You can't ignore the rules as written
because you think you could have a smaller set that is self-consistent.

Now, if you want to create an alternative set of rules, just as a mind
exercise, that's a different thing. But if, at some late time, you
actually go sailing, then you should learn the real rules and abide by them.

It depends on what boats are involved, a ****y Coronado which can only point
at 90 degrees to the wind versus a normal yacht , the situation is totally
different.



"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Capt. Neal® wrote:
...

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to
leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is
always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.


Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13:

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B,
Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of
the way of the vessel being overtaken.

What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as
meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13?

How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam,
when you seem confused by this simple point?

Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is
plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't
cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations.

CN

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is
plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

http://tinylink.com/?7sb2TLuitx

CM

Capt. Mooron wrote:
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is
plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.


http://tinylink.com/?7sb2TLuitx

CM


Don't confuse Neal with facts. He's already said that he considers the
rules optional (for him) and doesn't feel obligated to follow any rule
he doesn't like. Everyone else, however, he holds to a higher standard.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message

Don't confuse Neal with facts. He's already said that he considers the
rules optional (for him) and doesn't feel obligated to follow any rule he
doesn't like. Everyone else, however, he holds to a higher standard.

This quote alone from an expert in the rules seems to fly in the face of
Neal's claims....

"Rule 13 thus supercedes Rules 4 through 18 with one of the major effects
being to overrule the "Priority of Vessels" (Rule 18)." - [Jim Austin]

CM

What the fork does any of this thread have to do with alt.sailing.asa?






Capt. Neal® wrote:
Rule 11
Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one
another.
Rule 12
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one
another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall
keep out of the way of the other as follows:

when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel
which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of
the other;
when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel
which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is
to leeward;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel
to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other
vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep
out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side
shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is
carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the
side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft
sail is carried.
Pretty simple, isn't it?

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel
which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is
to leeward;"
This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both
have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the
give way vessel.
This tells me that the overtaking rule where the
overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not
apply to sailboats.
CN