An observation from the last century
 

The quote cited above does not appear in transcripts of the Nuremberg trials
because although Goering spoke these words during the course of the
proceedings, he did not offer them at his trial. His comments were made
privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and
psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the prisoners
held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of
the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later
published in the book Nuremberg Diary. The quote offered above was part of a
conversation Gilbert held with a dejected Hermann Goering in his cell on the
evening of 18 April 1946, as the trials were halted for a three-day Easter
recess:


Sweating in his cell in the evening, Goering was defensive and deflated
and not very happy over the turn the trial was taking. He said that he had
no control over the actions or the defense of the others, and that he had
never been anti-Semitic himself, had not believed these atrocities, and that
several Jews had offered to testify in his behalf. If [Hans] Frank
[Governor-General of occupied Poland] had known about atrocities in 1943, he
should have come to him and he would have tried to do something about it. He
might not have had enough power to change things in 1943, but if somebody
had come to him in 1941 or 1942 he could have forced a showdown. (I still
did not have the desire at this point to tell him what [SS General Otto]
Ohlendorf had said to this: that Goering had been written off as an
effective "moderating" influence, because of his drug addiction and
corruption.) I pointed out that with his "temperamental utterances," such as
preferring the killing of 200 Jews to the destruction of property, he had
hardly set himself up as champion of minority rights. Goering protested that
too much weight was being put on these temperamental utterances.
Furthermore, he made it clear that he was not defending or glorifying
Hitler.
Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the
common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars by
their political leaders:


We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his
attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for
leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would
some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally,
the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in
America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all,
it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have
some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way
in any country."

A bit cynical?

John Cairns

That's only to start a war. What about finishing one?
One you didn't start?

Gilligan

"John Cairns" wrote in message
. com...
The quote cited above does not appear in transcripts of the Nuremberg
trials
because although Goering spoke these words during the course of the
proceedings, he did not offer them at his trial. His comments were made
privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and
psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the
prisoners
held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of
the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later
published in the book Nuremberg Diary. The quote offered above was part of
a
conversation Gilbert held with a dejected Hermann Goering in his cell on
the
evening of 18 April 1946, as the trials were halted for a three-day Easter
recess:


Sweating in his cell in the evening, Goering was defensive and deflated
and not very happy over the turn the trial was taking. He said that he had
no control over the actions or the defense of the others, and that he had
never been anti-Semitic himself, had not believed these atrocities, and
that
several Jews had offered to testify in his behalf. If [Hans] Frank
[Governor-General of occupied Poland] had known about atrocities in 1943,
he
should have come to him and he would have tried to do something about it.
He
might not have had enough power to change things in 1943, but if somebody
had come to him in 1941 or 1942 he could have forced a showdown. (I still
did not have the desire at this point to tell him what [SS General Otto]
Ohlendorf had said to this: that Goering had been written off as an
effective "moderating" influence, because of his drug addiction and
corruption.) I pointed out that with his "temperamental utterances," such
as
preferring the killing of 200 Jews to the destruction of property, he had
hardly set himself up as champion of minority rights. Goering protested
that
too much weight was being put on these temperamental utterances.
Furthermore, he made it clear that he was not defending or glorifying
Hitler.
Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that
the
common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars
by
their political leaders:


We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to
his
attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for
leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why
would
some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally,
the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in
America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all,
it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always
a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people
have
some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have
to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
way
in any country."

A bit cynical?

John Cairns

"Gilligan" wrote in message
ink.net...
That's only to start a war. What about finishing one?
One you didn't start?

Gilligan

WTF? You reading something into this statement? It was merely a quote, if
you are seeing parallels, then maybe it's just you.

BTW, in case you've forgotten your history, the Nazis never attacked Poland,
they were merely "defending" themselves against an attack by Poland, or
maybe they were just "finishing" one.

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/...nt/HITLER1.htm

John Cairns


"John Cairns" wrote in message
. com...
The quote cited above does not appear in transcripts of the Nuremberg
trials
because although Goering spoke these words during the course of the
proceedings, he did not offer them at his trial. His comments were made
privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and
psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the
prisoners
held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of
the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later
published in the book Nuremberg Diary. The quote offered above was part
of
a
conversation Gilbert held with a dejected Hermann Goering in his cell on
the
evening of 18 April 1946, as the trials were halted for a three-day
Easter
recess:


Sweating in his cell in the evening, Goering was defensive and deflated
and not very happy over the turn the trial was taking. He said that he
had
no control over the actions or the defense of the others, and that he had
never been anti-Semitic himself, had not believed these atrocities, and
that
several Jews had offered to testify in his behalf. If [Hans] Frank
[Governor-General of occupied Poland] had known about atrocities in 1943,
he
should have come to him and he would have tried to do something about it.
He
might not have had enough power to change things in 1943, but if somebody
had come to him in 1941 or 1942 he could have forced a showdown. (I still
did not have the desire at this point to tell him what [SS General Otto]
Ohlendorf had said to this: that Goering had been written off as an
effective "moderating" influence, because of his drug addiction and
corruption.) I pointed out that with his "temperamental utterances," such
as
preferring the killing of 200 Jews to the destruction of property, he had
hardly set himself up as champion of minority rights. Goering protested
that
too much weight was being put on these temperamental utterances.
Furthermore, he made it clear that he was not defending or glorifying
Hitler.
Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that
the
common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars
by
their political leaders:


We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to
his
attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for
leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why
would
some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best
that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally,
the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in
America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all,
it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is
always
a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people
have
some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have
to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
way
in any country."

A bit cynical?

John Cairns

What about one you start for no good reason??

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gilligan" wrote in message
ink.net...
That's only to start a war. What about finishing one?
One you didn't start?

Gilligan

"John Cairns" wrote in message
. com...
The quote cited above does not appear in transcripts of the Nuremberg
trials
because although Goering spoke these words during the course of the
proceedings, he did not offer them at his trial. His comments were made
privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and
psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the
prisoners
held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of
the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later
published in the book Nuremberg Diary. The quote offered above was part
of
a
conversation Gilbert held with a dejected Hermann Goering in his cell on
the
evening of 18 April 1946, as the trials were halted for a three-day
Easter
recess:


Sweating in his cell in the evening, Goering was defensive and deflated
and not very happy over the turn the trial was taking. He said that he
had
no control over the actions or the defense of the others, and that he had
never been anti-Semitic himself, had not believed these atrocities, and
that
several Jews had offered to testify in his behalf. If [Hans] Frank
[Governor-General of occupied Poland] had known about atrocities in 1943,
he
should have come to him and he would have tried to do something about it.
He
might not have had enough power to change things in 1943, but if somebody
had come to him in 1941 or 1942 he could have forced a showdown. (I still
did not have the desire at this point to tell him what [SS General Otto]
Ohlendorf had said to this: that Goering had been written off as an
effective "moderating" influence, because of his drug addiction and
corruption.) I pointed out that with his "temperamental utterances," such
as
preferring the killing of 200 Jews to the destruction of property, he had
hardly set himself up as champion of minority rights. Goering protested
that
too much weight was being put on these temperamental utterances.
Furthermore, he made it clear that he was not defending or glorifying
Hitler.
Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that
the
common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars
by
their political leaders:


We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to
his
attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for
leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why
would
some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best
that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally,
the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in
America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all,
it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is
always
a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people
have
some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have
to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
way
in any country."

A bit cynical?

John Cairns

Or start for no reason at all, AND against the wishes of the democratically
elected common man AND in blatant violation of the law of the land.

The invasion of Kosovo still stands as the premier test case in point and
for one important and specific reason.

Insofar as one can tell the only reasons given for that was a) initially no
reason at all b) secondly, the President wishes to do so c) thirdly, to
ensure both sides can live together in peace (mission failed completely as
it only changed the participants in a general exodus), d) fourthly, mass
graves (none ever found yet another mission failure), and finally, "no one
got killed or hurt on our side" - also untrue and ultimately begs the
questions how many hurt or killed on the 'other side' and for what
reason(s) bringing the discussion full circle. Finally we determine the
United States, without provocation nor reason, invaded Kosovo so "the
troops will be home by Christmas, another mission failure."

In truth the invasion of Kosovo was for one President the same reason(s) as
the invasion of Haiti or for that matter the triumvirate errors of
Nicaragua, Iran, and Panama for another US President . "To change one
dictator for another dictator more to the ideological liking of said
administration(s), the common man be damned all the way round."

Luckily, or perhaps because of said, 'common man' most of these attempts
just mentioned have been abject, miserable failures with the glaring
exception of that 'one important and specific reason.'

In the USA at least the bogus Clintonista invasion of Kosovo proved that a
goodly number of senior and middle grade military officers of the United
States are easily suborned and completely willing to violate their oaths of
office, selling out their country, the wishes of the democratic electorate
of the common man be damned.

But then as the recent election showed enough of the 'common men and women'
of the country are still willing to step forward to rid themselves of would
be dictators not to their ideological liking, a lesson that should not be
lost on the remaining Benedict Arnolds of the military.

Which doesn't mean the partei apparatchiks and useful fools who suborned
the military and proved how easy it was to do so, won't continue the attempt
to establish 'their kind of dictatorship' in North America and elsewhere in
the world.

What it does mean is the War Powers Act, (put in place funnily enough by the
only party that has consistently violated it's requirements) must be
strengthened to include a phrase 'requiring' military officials to 'stand
down' their units and activities in the absence of it's required invocation
and passage.

and THAT is and was the reason for Kosovo, never about anything except
violating the wishes of the common man and woman, the citizens of the
United States

M.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
What about one you start for no good reason??

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gilligan" wrote in message
ink.net...
That's only to start a war. What about finishing one?
One you didn't start?

Gilligan

"John Cairns" wrote in message
. com...
The quote cited above does not appear in transcripts of the Nuremberg
trials
because although Goering spoke these words during the course of the
proceedings, he did not offer them at his trial. His comments were made
privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer
and
psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the
prisoners
held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations
of
the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he
later
published in the book Nuremberg Diary. The quote offered above was part
of
a
conversation Gilbert held with a dejected Hermann Goering in his cell
on
the
evening of 18 April 1946, as the trials were halted for a three-day
Easter
recess:


Sweating in his cell in the evening, Goering was defensive and
deflated
and not very happy over the turn the trial was taking. He said that he
had
no control over the actions or the defense of the others, and that he
had
never been anti-Semitic himself, had not believed these atrocities, and
that
several Jews had offered to testify in his behalf. If [Hans] Frank
[Governor-General of occupied Poland] had known about atrocities in
1943,
he
should have come to him and he would have tried to do something about
it.
He
might not have had enough power to change things in 1943, but if
somebody
had come to him in 1941 or 1942 he could have forced a showdown. (I
still
did not have the desire at this point to tell him what [SS General
Otto]
Ohlendorf had said to this: that Goering had been written off as an
effective "moderating" influence, because of his drug addiction and
corruption.) I pointed out that with his "temperamental utterances,"
such
as
preferring the killing of 200 Jews to the destruction of property, he
had
hardly set himself up as champion of minority rights. Goering protested
that
too much weight was being put on these temperamental utterances.
Furthermore, he made it clear that he was not defending or glorifying
Hitler.
Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that
the
common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting
wars
by
their political leaders:


We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary
to
his
attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for
leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why
would
some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best
that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece.
Naturally,
the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor
in
America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all,
it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is
always
a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people
have
some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in
the
United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people
can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have
to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists
for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same
way
in any country."

A bit cynical?

John Cairns

Losers don't get to write history, nor rewrite history, nor for that matter
even comment on history. Time to step aside, there's no room in a two party
system for 'losers' ahh. ..the ahhh what the H___ were they called anyway?
Never mind...doesn't matter

Libertarians vs. Republicans in 2008

M.

You need a new drug. You're talking gibberish.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Losers don't get to write history, nor rewrite history, nor for that
matter
even comment on history. Time to step aside, there's no room in a two
party
system for 'losers' ahh. ..the ahhh what the H___ were they called
anyway?
Never mind...doesn't matter

Libertarians vs. Republicans in 2008

M.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:02:52 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

You need a new drug. You're talking gibberish.


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Michael go on a voyage on his ship?
Who would be using his name if that is the case?
Mark E. Williams

Micheal,

Tell me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression Kosovo was a UN
operation, conducted by NATO.

Ole Thom

Libbers vs Rep??

Never happen!!! Both believe in small or no Central Gov.

It's the Dems that need Large Central Gov. That will also be their
downfall, I'm afraid, Hopefully they will modify themselves before
destruction.

Mich, Look at the map of the Gov. race in Washington State. Rossi has
everything East of the Cascade Mountains. Only the highly populated
centers on the Pacific Coast went against him.

Just like the National Election. Kerry didn't carry a state in the Bible
Belt. Being Catholic didn't help but city living liberals have got to
wake up to the facts. Independent people are made to feel like the
Liberals only want them to surpport them is their silly life styles.
They can't believe the days of the WPA's, CCC's, PWA's, TWA's are
history

Ole Thom