Why can't you get a straight answer
 

Why can't you get a straight answer from catamaran owners about the performance
of their cat. All you hear is that they are fast, fast, fast and roomy, roomy,
roomy and don't point all that bad. Deep down, you know this can't be true.
Do they stay fast once you put normal cruising gear on them? Is it comfy to
sleep in a bed that both of you have to crawl into from the end? Can you do
better than right angles to the true wind? Its like they developed their
answers with Condoleeza Rice's help.

In article ,
Bobspirt wrote:
Why can't you get a straight answer from catamaran owners about the performance
of their cat. All you hear is that they are fast, fast, fast and roomy, roomy,
roomy and don't point all that bad. Deep down, you know this can't be true.
Do they stay fast once you put normal cruising gear on them? Is it comfy to
sleep in a bed that both of you have to crawl into from the end? Can you do
better than right angles to the true wind? Its like they developed their
answers with Condoleeza Rice's help.

I'm not a cat owner, but I've sailed on more than a few of them in
various places. I find that they point well, perhaps not quite as well
as monos. They're much faster off the wind. Close hauled, they're
about the same as monos of the same length. They're quite roomy, and
not all of them require you climb in/out of the bunk from the
end... depends on the size of the cat. They don't heel much at all, so
cruising is easier on the people, with long passages not being so
stressful and without "living on the walls." If you overload them,
they slow down and can be dangerous. They can't hold as much crap as
monos, but you should be able to sort out what you need vs. what you
want in some reasonable and equitable way. For example, you don't need
a liferaft, since the cat itself will suffice, even in the unlikely
event of inverting.

I didn't ask for Condi's help.


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Huh?
Bubbles, what size and type of cat, there are as many as there are
monos.

C'mon, Ozzy. Look again. I didn't post that dopey post.

RB

Oh, looked exactly like one of your dopey posts..sorry :-)


yeah, cuz I'm ALWAYS bashing Cats, right?
Ozzy, you're nuts!

RB

Jon,

You didn't mention their motion in a choppy sea or in a seaway.

You didn't mention moorage.

You didn't mention Tacking while going up wind in light to moderate air.

You didn't mention setting a head sail.

You didn't mention Aux Power.

And; I'm not an expert on Multi Hull. I'm just asking hearsay.

I know I'm very envious when I see a 40 footer nose up to the beach for
fun and games. I don't envy their twin outboards

Ole Thom

Why can't you get a straight answer about some people's identities? If someone
actually had a serious boating question why would they use a forged sig?

And why can't cat performance be as good as the reviewers and owners say? I've
done everything "wrong" in terms of performance on my cat: twin diesels instead
of the standard outboards, heavy duty deck hardware, four anchors and rodes,
dinghy in davits, large deep freezer, lots of tools, spare parts, layers of
bottom paint, a stack pack main, and a high cut jib, etc. And still, we're
always faster than cruising monohulls by a knot or two, sometimes three. I'll
admit the gap is narrowing, especially when we're loaded up for a vacation, but
the last good "head to head" we had was in light air, and we blew past a
Catalina 42 rating about 100. In heavier air she'll still do 10+ knots, though
we haven't seen 12 knots in a few years.

I'll admit I don't bother sailing to windward often, but she can power into a
headwind at 7 knots, so why bother? But she can hold her own at 45 degrees true
and speeds away when you foot off. Of course, tacking can be excruciating.

And what's this about a "crawl in" bed? Isn't that what monohulls have,
commonly called a V-berth? I have a queen sized pullman bunk with 6'4" headroom
in the stateroom. Actually I have two such staterooms, plus a third smaller
"crawl in" that our daughter prefers.

So tell me, do monohullers really like sailing around heeled over 30 degrees? I
mean, it can be fun for a daysail, but why would anyone want to do that for long
passage? And why would anyone want to carry around several tons of lead? So
they'll need twice to sail to go slower? So they'll crunch the dock harder?
And why would you want a boat the will sink in minutes if it gets holed? This
whole ballast thing is a relatively new concept in boat design, and a bit of a
dead end, if you ask me!



"Bobspirt" wrote in message
...
Why can't you get a straight answer from catamaran owners about the
performance
of their cat. All you hear is that they are fast, fast, fast and roomy,
roomy,
roomy and don't point all that bad. Deep down, you know this can't be true.
Do they stay fast once you put normal cruising gear on them? Is it comfy to
sleep in a bed that both of you have to crawl into from the end? Can you do
better than right angles to the true wind? Its like they developed their
answers with Condoleeza Rice's help.

In article , OzOne wrote:
On 05 Oct 2004 22:09:35 GMT, (Bobsprit) scribbled
thusly:

Huh?
Bubbles, what size and type of cat, there are as many as there are
monos.

C'mon, Ozzy. Look again. I didn't post that dopey post.

RB

Oh, looked exactly like one of your dopey posts..sorry :-)

I didn't bother to check the headers... oh well, I wish the
sockpuppets would go away. Pretty stupid, juvey behavior.
--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
Thom Stewart wrote:

I didn't mention a lot of things.

You didn't mention their motion in a choppy sea or in a seaway.

Some are worse than others. Some hobbyhorse like crazy, some pound
pretty badly. Still, I prefer the motion to monos in the difficult
situations. Some don't. For example, I sailed a Seawind 1000 on the
bay several times. One time, the wind was 35-40kts and the bay had
significan whitecaps. People were standing around drinking champagne
no problem. I put my fancy stemware down on the countertop, and 1/2
hour later it was still there.

You didn't mention moorage.

More expensive unless you get an end tie, mooring ball, or anchor
out.

You didn't mention Tacking while going up wind in light to moderate air.

Some have more problems than others. The Seawind was easy. The Venisia
(sp?) 42 was also.

You didn't mention setting a head sail.

Setting one? Easy as pie. Of course, I've only sailed cats with
furlers.

You didn't mention Aux Power.

I like twin inboard diesels, or any twin configuration. Makes moving
around at the marina a cake walk, and it makes docking stupid simple.

And; I'm not an expert on Multi Hull. I'm just asking hearsay.

I know I'm very envious when I see a 40 footer nose up to the beach for
fun and games. I don't envy their twin outboards

Why? All you have to do is haul them up when sailing.





--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Jon,
Sorry, I'm not Jon

You didn't mention their motion in a choppy sea or in a seaway.
There are a few conditions where a cat takes a beating, but 80% of the time (or
more) they're more comfortable than a monohull.

You didn't mention moorage.
Why would that be a problem? Dock space can be an issue - no one should buy a
cat until they have a good home port lined up. But I've traveled the East
Coast, Maine to Key West, and never had a serious problem getting dockage. And
I've never had to "pay double." In fact, I pay for 36 feet, yet I have the
space of a 46 to 50 foot monohull.

BTW, a cat stays rock-steady on a mooring. I've played "house of cards" while
monohulls are rolling from a lttle swell.


You didn't mention Tacking while going up wind in light to moderate air.
I did. I don't do it.


You didn't mention setting a head sail.
Why would that be an issue? Because you have too much space up forward?
Because the boat isn't rolling back and forth? Because you can clip the asym's
tack 10 feet to windward without a pole?


You didn't mention Aux Power.
I've got twin diesels. I can spin on a dime, or back a straight line at low
speed. Even with both engines WOT its less than a gallon an hour to do 8 knots,
or I loaf along at 6 knots on one engine.

My boat comes in three configurations - the LRC like mine, the twin 9.9 outboard
Classic (lighter, faster under sail, disposable engines), and the single 9.9
Express, with dagger boards, tall rig, and stripped down so its about 4000
pounds lighter than mine.

And; I'm not an expert on Multi Hull. I'm just asking hearsay.
You can't believe everything you hear at the bar. Remember, the drunk next to
you could be jaxie.



I know I'm very envious when I see a 40 footer nose up to the beach for
fun and games.

I kinda like anchoring in 3 feet of water.

I don't envy their twin outboards
I've had mixed feelings - the outboards are noisy and thirsty, compared to
diesels. But if something goes wrong, you can replace one in a afternoon for a
few thousand dollars. While I was moored at Martha's Vineyard in August a
sistership was waiting on the next mooring for DHL to deliver a new outboard.
It came at Noon and it was installed by the owner and running before dark.

In case you haven't noticed, after 5 years I'm still a believer. I could see
getting a smaller monohull (like a Marshall Cat or a Nonsuch) if I got back into
daysailing. But for cruising, a multihull is the way to go. And if I every
switched over to a powerboat, it would be a power cat!

I didn't bother to check the headers... oh well, I wish the
sockpuppets would go away. Pretty stupid, juvey behavior. BRBR

Who cares who wrote it. Its a legit question, and you took the time to answer
it. How come you also don't seem to get a straight answer about dockage? No
marinas seem to want them. And what about parts and repairs? Need special
travel lifts and two of everything to maintain.

In article ,
Bobspirt wrote:
I didn't bother to check the headers... oh well, I wish the
sockpuppets would go away. Pretty stupid, juvey behavior. BRBR

Who cares who wrote it. Its a legit question, and you took the time to answer
it. How come you also don't seem to get a straight answer about dockage? No
marinas seem to want them. And what about parts and repairs? Need special
travel lifts and two of everything to maintain.

It matters because sockpuppets who aren't funny are stupid.

Dockage isn't usually an issue out here nor anywhere I've been. What
special parts??? duplicate anchors??? travel lifts are an issue, but
you can also beach them pretty easily.


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

2 engines, 2 heads, 2 hulls worth of hatches, deck fittings, deck seams, etc.,
2 steering systems . . .

Is the rule that sockpuppets have to be funny a new one?

Now, that Gunboat might make you forget about all that.

"Bobspirt" wrote in message
...
I didn't bother to check the headers... oh well, I wish the
sockpuppets would go away. Pretty stupid, juvey behavior. BRBR

Who cares who wrote it. Its a legit question, and you took the time to answer
it. How come you also don't seem to get a straight answer about dockage? No
marinas seem to want them.

I said home dockage can be a problem. However, transient space is not.

And what about parts and repairs? Need special
travel lifts and two of everything to maintain.

What "two of everything"? Yes there are often two identical engines. A bit
more work at oil change time. But twin engines is the ultimate backup. The
rigging, on the other hand, is smaller because you're not dragging around 3 tons
of lead. Yes I need a larger lift than most, but I can beach the boat to clean
the bottom or change props.

"Bobspirt" wrote in message
...
2 engines,
some have only one engine. Two engines is an advantage more often than not.

2 heads,
the shows you're not really a sailor. Many medium size, and most larger
monohulls have two heads. My cat, and most under 40 feet have one head.

2 hulls worth of hatches,
now you're complaining they too much ventilation. This proves you're not a
sailor.

deck fittings,

???? Too many cleats???? Have you ever been on a boat?


deck seams, etc.,
2 steering systems . . .
You mean having a spare rudder is a problem? BTW, an number of new monohulls
have two rudders.



Is the rule that sockpuppets have to be funny a new one?

Now, that Gunboat might make you forget about all that.

Well, Jeff, anyone can say having two of everything is an advantage because of
the redundancy factor, but then why not have 3 of everything. This is exactly
the sort of spin-like answer you get from multi-hullers, and the reason for the
original post. All talk from multi-hullers is defensive of their choice (or,
in your case, ad hominem attacks - you've been on ASA too long), rather than an
honest discussion of the pro's and con's. Even Chris White's book is pure
advocacy. It's too bad, because some folks out there are just looking for the
straight poop. Happy sailing to you.

You call that an "ad hominem" attack? You started your post implying all
catamaran owners are liars! Ask a serious question and I'll give a serious
answer. Complain about extra hatches and I'll call you a fool. And using a
forged sig marks you as scum of the earth, so you aren't owed any respect at
all.

I question your understanding of modern boats. While its true that larger cats
geared towards the charter business have 2, or sometimes even more heads, the
same is true for monohulls. At the last two boatshows I went to last month
(Newport and Boston) I went on board most of the 40 footers; they all had two
heads. Complaining that some cats have two heads is a reflection of your
experience.

Complaining about "two deck seams" means you haven't even thought about the
basic geometry - while there may be some extra "seamage" given the LOA, its less
usually less than a multihull of the same "area on deck" I would concede that
multihulls often require some serious engineering and modern materials, but that
explains why the modern cruising cat has only been developed in the last 15 or
20 years.





"Bobspirt" wrote in message
...
Well, Jeff, anyone can say having two of everything is an advantage because of
the redundancy factor, but then why not have 3 of everything. This is exactly
the sort of spin-like answer you get from multi-hullers, and the reason for
the
original post. All talk from multi-hullers is defensive of their choice (or,
in your case, ad hominem attacks - you've been on ASA too long), rather than
an
honest discussion of the pro's and con's. Even Chris White's book is pure
advocacy. It's too bad, because some folks out there are just looking for the
straight poop. Happy sailing to you.

In article ,
Bobspirt wrote:
2 engines, 2 heads, 2 hulls worth of hatches, deck fittings, deck seams, etc.,
2 steering systems . . .

Is the rule that sockpuppets have to be funny a new one?

Now, that Gunboat might make you forget about all that.

If there's someone out there who speaks ebonics, could you please
translate?


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
Sockpuppet stupidsockpuppet wrote:
Well, Jeff, anyone can say having two of everything is an advantage because of
the redundancy factor, but then why not have 3 of everything. This is exactly
the sort of spin-like answer you get from multi-hullers, and the reason for the
original post. All talk from multi-hullers is defensive of their choice (or,
in your case, ad hominem attacks - you've been on ASA too long), rather than an
honest discussion of the pro's and con's. Even Chris White's book is pure
advocacy. It's too bad, because some folks out there are just looking for the
straight poop. Happy sailing to you.

This idiot never heard of trimarans.
--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Jon, you, a racist? Who'd a thunk it.

In article ,
Bobspirt wrote:
Jon, you, a racist? Who'd a thunk it.

Only for asinine sockpuppets.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

bob, jeffies started his sailing career with a boat specifically advertised to
old men, and then regressed to training wheels.

bob, don't expect much from jeffies. as a kid he was chosen last and then put
in rf, batting 10th. today, his wife balances his checkbook for him..Well,
Jeff, anyone can say having two of everything is an advantage because
of
the redundancy factor, but then why not have 3 of everything. This is
exactly
the sort of spin-like answer you get from multi-hullers, and the reason for
the
original post. All talk from multi-hullers is defensive of their choice (or,
in your case, ad hominem attacks - you've been on ASA too long), rather than
an
honest discussion of the pro's and con's. Even Chris White's book is pure
advocacy. It's too bad, because some folks out there are just looking for
the
straight poop. Happy sailing to you.

You started your post implying all
catamaran owners are liars!

he should have stated it as a fact instead?

Right Jaxie, those 420's I raced in college are really an "old man's boat".



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
bob, jeffies started his sailing career with a boat specifically advertised to
old men, and then regressed to training wheels.

bob, don't expect much from jeffies. as a kid he was chosen last and then put
in rf, batting 10th. today, his wife balances his checkbook for him..Well,
Jeff, anyone can say having two of everything is an advantage because
of
the redundancy factor, but then why not have 3 of everything. This is
exactly
the sort of spin-like answer you get from multi-hullers, and the reason for
the
original post. All talk from multi-hullers is defensive of their choice (or,
in your case, ad hominem attacks - you've been on ASA too long), rather than
an
honest discussion of the pro's and con's. Even Chris White's book is pure
advocacy. It's too bad, because some folks out there are just looking for
the
straight poop. Happy sailing to you.

You stated "started his sailing career." In fact, the boats I learned to sail
on, at age 11, were Cape Cod Mercury's and Oday DaySailors. Within 10 years I
had sailed on a wide variety of boats - that's what happens when you race on the
intercollegiate circuit. I even had a ride on the then America's Cup defender,
Intrepid.

So 20 years later, after sailing and owning a variety of boats, I chose a
Nonsuch 30 as a coastal cruiser, to take friends out for short trips and cruise
the New England coast with my family. Many knowledgeable sailors considered
this the ideal boat for the purpose. We certainly loved it.


So tell us jaxie ... What kind of boat do you have? In all you ranting you've
never talked about actually being in command of a boat. You never talked about
taking your family, or any other guest out on any boat. What a sad, pathetic
life you must lead, jaxie.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies? you cruised with your family on a 420?

my statement stands. you owned a boat you stated you cruised with your
family
that is and always has been advertised as an old man's boat, before you
regressed to training wheels.

Right Jaxie, those 420's I raced in college are really an "old man's boat".



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
bob, jeffies started his sailing career with a boat specifically advertised
to
old men, and then regressed to training wheels.

bob, don't expect much from jeffies. as a kid he was chosen last and then
put
in rf, batting 10th. today, his wife balances his checkbook for
him..Well,
Jeff, anyone can say having two of everything is an advantage because
of
the redundancy factor, but then why not have 3 of everything. This is
exactly
the sort of spin-like answer you get from multi-hullers, and the reason
for
the
original post. All talk from multi-hullers is defensive of their choice
(or,
in your case, ad hominem attacks - you've been on ASA too long), rather
than
an
honest discussion of the pro's and con's. Even Chris White's book is pure
advocacy. It's too bad, because some folks out there are just looking for
the
straight poop. Happy sailing to you.

okay, change that to "started his adult sailing career" on an old mans boat.

You stated "started his sailing career." In fact, the boats I learned to
sail
on, at age 11, were Cape Cod Mercury's and Oday DaySailors. Within 10 years
I
had sailed on a wide variety of boats - that's what happens when you race on
the
intercollegiate circuit. I even had a ride on the then America's Cup
defender,
Intrepid.

So 20 years later, after sailing and owning a variety of boats, I chose a
Nonsuch 30 as a coastal cruiser, to take friends out for short trips and
cruise
the New England coast with my family. Many knowledgeable sailors considered
this the ideal boat for the purpose. We certainly loved it.


So tell us jaxie ... What kind of boat do you have? In all you ranting
you've
never talked about actually being in command of a boat. You never talked
about
taking your family, or any other guest out on any boat. What a sad, pathetic
life you must lead, jaxie.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies? you cruised with your family on a 420?

my statement stands. you owned a boat you stated you cruised with your
family
that is and always has been advertised as an old man's boat, before you
regressed to training wheels.

Right Jaxie, those 420's I raced in college are really an "old man's
boat".



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
bob, jeffies started his sailing career with a boat specifically
advertised
to
old men, and then regressed to training wheels.

bob, don't expect much from jeffies. as a kid he was chosen last and
then
put
in rf, batting 10th. today, his wife balances his checkbook for
him..Well,
Jeff, anyone can say having two of everything is an advantage because
of
the redundancy factor, but then why not have 3 of everything. This is
exactly
the sort of spin-like answer you get from multi-hullers, and the reason
for
the
original post. All talk from multi-hullers is defensive of their
choice
(or,
in your case, ad hominem attacks - you've been on ASA too long), rather
than
an
honest discussion of the pro's and con's. Even Chris White's book is
pure
advocacy. It's too bad, because some folks out there are just looking
for
the
straight poop. Happy sailing to you.

I chose a
Nonsuch 30 as a coastal cruiser, to take friends out for short trips and
cruise
the New England coast with my family. Many knowledgeable sailors considered
this the ideal boat for the purpose. We certainly loved it.

a boat that is now and always has been advertised as an "old man's boat". That
is the boat you traded in for training wheels.