Marty,

Right you are! Tell Donal to mark you up for One Point.

The Tides use the Moon Calender:^)
That is also the reason that Tide rides are possible.

Ole Thom

Thom Stewart wrote:
Nav?

If the max flow is when the height distance is the greatest, wouldn't
the tide change wave be like a pyramid instead of a sine wave?


Thom
Max flow is most likely when the _rate of change_ of height is fastest.
This is most likely at half tide in the open sea, but there is no firm
rule for this hence my *most likely*. The current due to tides is also
summed with other currents for example.

Cheers

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

What a sad little man you are.


???


So bound up in jealousy.


???

What am I supposed to be jealous of? Your superior knowledge about the
USS Constitution?


Constellation actually, little man.

Cheers

That's not a backpedal. Tidal current is discrete from hydraulic current
and the two sum as I said.

Cheers

Jeff Morris wrote:

Holy Backpedal, Nav!

Of course the total current is the sum of a variety of effects. However, these
are certain places where the hydraulic current dominates the flow. Snow's Cut,
I suspect, is one. There are others, and they tend to be very significant for
sailors.

Most simple tidal currents around here max at under 2 knots, while the
hydraulics are frequently over 4, sometimes 6 or more. For simple currents, the
"50-90" rule, which approximates a sine curve, can be used. This says that the
current reaches half strength in the first third between slack and max, and 90%
in the second third.

However, when a hydraulic current dominates, the current changes very quickly,
often with virtually no slack. Cape Cod Canal this morning went from a .9 knot
ebb to a 1 knot flood in 10 minutes. It went from 50% ebb to 50% flood strength
in less than an hour, or twice as fast as a sine wave would predict. Hell Gate
changes even faster than that.

This is a very significant effect for the sailor, who often wishes to transit
such areas at slack. Perhaps they are not common where you are, Nav, but I'm
rather surprised you heard of it.

jeff





"Nav" wrote in message
...

I just looked up Bowditch because I was surprised at the generality you
implied. Bowditch is clearly talking about hydraulic current which
_adds_ to the tidal current. The overall effect is as I described in my
other response.


Cheers



Jeff Morris wrote:


Then you're disagreeing with Bowditch:

"A slight departure from the sine form is exhibited by
the reversing current in a strait, such as East River, New
York, that connects two tidal basins. The tides at the two
ends of a strait are seldom in phase or equal in range, and
the current, called hydraulic current, is generated largely
by the continuously changing difference in height of water
at the two ends. The speed of a hydraulic current varies
nearly as the square root of the difference in height. The
speed reaches a maximum more quickly and remains at
strength for a longer period than shown in Figure 914b, and
the period of weak current near the time of slack is considerably
shortened."


"Nav" wrote in message
...


That sounds like an estimate based on an energy argument. However, I
don't think that case could be considered to be a closed system so such
energy balance need not apply.

Cheers

Jeff Morris wrote:



"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...



Scott,

You've seem to have forgotten "The Gulf Stream Master" Jax. I'm sure he
can help you ride the eddies:^) Maybe even find you a stray current
heading south (g)


Jax also insisted that the time of high water and slack current must be the
same, to be otherwise would violate the laws of physics (on his planet).







Now, for what's it worth. The Tide Flow is a sine wave. Us common folk
understand that slack water is at the top and bottom of the wave. So
slack is, roughly about a hour and it is roughly in the upper 30%
counting the end of the rising tide and the beginning of the Ebb. 15% to
the HW and 15% roughly to the Max Flow. That means about two hours to
max flow, 8 hours of max flow and then another couple of hour of
diminishing flow to LW.


While the current flow in "simple harbors" may follow a sine curve, in cuts
between two bodies of water the flow is different. The curve is more
"squarish," that is, the flow ramps up quicker and stays high longer. The
duration of slack is reduced. The best example is Hell Gate in New York.

IIRC, the flow rate is proportional to the square root of the different of
height of the two bodies.

"Nav" wrote in message
...
The reason I ask is that wind and air pressure affect the tide height
and I would expect that that effect could alter time of peak tide and
stream. The question, would such an effect also alter time of slack
water differently from time of high water? I suspect not much.


I tend to agree with you. However, I cannot think of any other explanation.


Any ideas?


Regards

Donal
--

You mean a line parted and it wasn't even chafing on the boat or dock??? Good
Grief!!!

This is the most pathetic confession since jaxie admitted he didn't know how to
use a compass!



"Nav" wrote in message
...
That's not a backpedal. Tidal current is discrete from hydraulic current
and the two sum as I said.

Cheers

Jeff Morris wrote:

Holy Backpedal, Nav!

Of course the total current is the sum of a variety of effects. However,
these
are certain places where the hydraulic current dominates the flow. Snow's
Cut,
I suspect, is one. There are others, and they tend to be very significant
for
sailors.

Most simple tidal currents around here max at under 2 knots, while the
hydraulics are frequently over 4, sometimes 6 or more. For simple currents,
the
"50-90" rule, which approximates a sine curve, can be used. This says that
the
current reaches half strength in the first third between slack and max, and
90%
in the second third.

However, when a hydraulic current dominates, the current changes very
quickly,
often with virtually no slack. Cape Cod Canal this morning went from a .9
knot
ebb to a 1 knot flood in 10 minutes. It went from 50% ebb to 50% flood
strength
in less than an hour, or twice as fast as a sine wave would predict. Hell
Gate
changes even faster than that.

This is a very significant effect for the sailor, who often wishes to
transit
such areas at slack. Perhaps they are not common where you are, Nav, but
I'm
rather surprised you heard of it.

jeff





"Nav" wrote in message
...

I just looked up Bowditch because I was surprised at the generality you
implied. Bowditch is clearly talking about hydraulic current which
_adds_ to the tidal current. The overall effect is as I described in my
other response.


Cheers



Jeff Morris wrote:


Then you're disagreeing with Bowditch:

"A slight departure from the sine form is exhibited by
the reversing current in a strait, such as East River, New
York, that connects two tidal basins. The tides at the two
ends of a strait are seldom in phase or equal in range, and
the current, called hydraulic current, is generated largely
by the continuously changing difference in height of water
at the two ends. The speed of a hydraulic current varies
nearly as the square root of the difference in height. The
speed reaches a maximum more quickly and remains at
strength for a longer period than shown in Figure 914b, and
the period of weak current near the time of slack is considerably
shortened."


"Nav" wrote in message
...


That sounds like an estimate based on an energy argument. However, I
don't think that case could be considered to be a closed system so such
energy balance need not apply.

Cheers

Jeff Morris wrote:



"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...



Scott,

You've seem to have forgotten "The Gulf Stream Master" Jax. I'm sure he
can help you ride the eddies:^) Maybe even find you a stray current
heading south (g)


Jax also insisted that the time of high water and slack current must be
the
same, to be otherwise would violate the laws of physics (on his planet).







Now, for what's it worth. The Tide Flow is a sine wave. Us common folk
understand that slack water is at the top and bottom of the wave. So
slack is, roughly about a hour and it is roughly in the upper 30%
counting the end of the rising tide and the beginning of the Ebb. 15% to
the HW and 15% roughly to the Max Flow. That means about two hours to
max flow, 8 hours of max flow and then another couple of hour of
diminishing flow to LW.


While the current flow in "simple harbors" may follow a sine curve, in
cuts
between two bodies of water the flow is different. The curve is more
"squarish," that is, the flow ramps up quicker and stays high longer.
The
duration of slack is reduced. The best example is Hell Gate in New York.

IIRC, the flow rate is proportional to the square root of the different
of
height of the two bodies.

Sorry Nav, that was obviously meant for Booby.

Your backpedal was pretty pathetic, also. You most pathetic since claiming to
be a charter member of the "Save the Constitution" committee!





"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
You mean a line parted and it wasn't even chafing on the boat or dock???
Good
Grief!!!

This is the most pathetic confession since jaxie admitted he didn't know how
to
use a compass!



"Nav" wrote in message
...
That's not a backpedal. Tidal current is discrete from hydraulic current
and the two sum as I said.

Cheers

Jeff Morris wrote:

Holy Backpedal, Nav!

Of course the total current is the sum of a variety of effects. However,
these
are certain places where the hydraulic current dominates the flow. Snow's
Cut,
I suspect, is one. There are others, and they tend to be very
significant
for
sailors.

Most simple tidal currents around here max at under 2 knots, while the
hydraulics are frequently over 4, sometimes 6 or more. For simple
currents,
the
"50-90" rule, which approximates a sine curve, can be used. This says
that
the
current reaches half strength in the first third between slack and max,
and
90%
in the second third.

However, when a hydraulic current dominates, the current changes very
quickly,
often with virtually no slack. Cape Cod Canal this morning went from a .9
knot
ebb to a 1 knot flood in 10 minutes. It went from 50% ebb to 50% flood
strength
in less than an hour, or twice as fast as a sine wave would predict. Hell
Gate
changes even faster than that.

This is a very significant effect for the sailor, who often wishes to
transit
such areas at slack. Perhaps they are not common where you are, Nav, but
I'm
rather surprised you heard of it.

jeff





"Nav" wrote in message
...

I just looked up Bowditch because I was surprised at the generality you
implied. Bowditch is clearly talking about hydraulic current which
_adds_ to the tidal current. The overall effect is as I described in my
other response.


Cheers



Jeff Morris wrote:


Then you're disagreeing with Bowditch:

"A slight departure from the sine form is exhibited by
the reversing current in a strait, such as East River, New
York, that connects two tidal basins. The tides at the two
ends of a strait are seldom in phase or equal in range, and
the current, called hydraulic current, is generated largely
by the continuously changing difference in height of water
at the two ends. The speed of a hydraulic current varies
nearly as the square root of the difference in height. The
speed reaches a maximum more quickly and remains at
strength for a longer period than shown in Figure 914b, and
the period of weak current near the time of slack is considerably
shortened."


"Nav" wrote in message
...


That sounds like an estimate based on an energy argument. However, I
don't think that case could be considered to be a closed system so such
energy balance need not apply.

Cheers

Jeff Morris wrote:



"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...



Scott,

You've seem to have forgotten "The Gulf Stream Master" Jax. I'm sure
he
can help you ride the eddies:^) Maybe even find you a stray current
heading south (g)


Jax also insisted that the time of high water and slack current must be
the
same, to be otherwise would violate the laws of physics (on his
planet).







Now, for what's it worth. The Tide Flow is a sine wave. Us common folk
understand that slack water is at the top and bottom of the wave. So
slack is, roughly about a hour and it is roughly in the upper 30%
counting the end of the rising tide and the beginning of the Ebb. 15%
to
the HW and 15% roughly to the Max Flow. That means about two hours to
max flow, 8 hours of max flow and then another couple of hour of
diminishing flow to LW.


While the current flow in "simple harbors" may follow a sine curve, in
cuts
between two bodies of water the flow is different. The curve is more
"squarish," that is, the flow ramps up quicker and stays high longer.
The
duration of slack is reduced. The best example is Hell Gate in New
York.

IIRC, the flow rate is proportional to the square root of the different
of
height of the two bodies.

Peter S/Y Anicula wrote:

Nav wrote:

Tide tables are hardly rocket science!




Well actually they are. Mankind does not yet posses the full knowledge
to produce exact tide predictions.


There's a world of difference between "exact" and coatal tide tables
accurate to 15 minutes. Most tables are still produced by measurement of
local harmonic constants not by modelling. The local constants if
correct will produce sufficient accuaracy for navigation purposes. That
is my poinmt, not that research into hydrographics is not sophisticated.


Cheers

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Marty,

Right you are! Tell Donal to mark you up for One Point.

The Tides use the Moon Calender:^)
That is also the reason that Tide rides are possible.

I'm afraid that I can only award Marty 0.75 of a point.

I'm about to dissappear for a couple of days, so I'll explain when I get
back.

[hint] The sun has a much greater gravitational effect on the Earth than
the moon. So why does the moon seem to have a greater impact on the tides?



Regards


Donal
--

Nav,

Height is a measurement of distance from a reference point. It isn't a
rate. It is a static measurement. It just doesn't compute. I don't
follow you terminology?

Ole Thom