Vang Usage?
 

Ok Doug,

I' ll give it a try

Since the Vang; Solid or Rope, What ever, has been kicked around as a
Hoisting Device, which it isn't let's talk about what it is for.

Why is it necessary? When do you use vang pressure? To do what? If it's
good sometimes, why not all the time?

How much tension should be put on a Vang? Can a strong Deck Ape over
apply tension by hand?

Let's talk about it.

You first Doug. It is a Racers gimmick. Tell us why?

Ole Thom
P/S Bart, jump in on this. You too, Donal.
We'll even listen to the voice of Plowville.
I know City Island will contribute.

My boat doesn't have a vang, the middle hatch is in the way. The Mac
had one, good while running downwind to prevent the boom from lifting
and gybing. In lighter air ,I'd clip the bottom to a stanchion base as
a preventer.

Scotty

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Ok Doug,

I' ll give it a try

Since the Vang; Solid or Rope, What ever, has been kicked around as
a
Hoisting Device, which it isn't let's talk about what it is for.

Why is it necessary? When do you use vang pressure? To do what? If
it's
good sometimes, why not all the time?

How much tension should be put on a Vang? Can a strong Deck Ape over
apply tension by hand?

Let's talk about it.

You first Doug. It is a Racers gimmick. Tell us why?

Ole Thom
P/S Bart, jump in on this. You too, Donal.
We'll even listen to the voice of Plowville.
I know City Island will contribute.

Scott,

You should think about the twin cruising vang. It can act as a preventer
& vang. It will also maintain your sail shape when you let out the sheet
to reach or run.

Ole Thom

My boat doesn't have a vang, the middle hatch is in the way.


Siedlemann: Engineered by a Monkey for a Monkey for the worst years of your
life.

twin cruising vang???

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Scott,

You should think about the twin cruising vang. It can act as a
preventer
& vang. It will also maintain your sail shape when you let out the
sheet
to reach or run.

Ole Thom

Thom Stewart scribbled thusly:
Since the Vang; Solid or Rope, What ever, has been kicked around as a
Hoisting Device, which it isn't let's talk about what it is for.

Why isn't the Vang a Hoisting Device? The Hunter 19 vang was a 3:1
purchase on swivel pelican hooks, originally supplied as the mainsheet
which it was marginally suitable for. We used it with a gin pole for
raising the mast, on those few occasions I didn't lever it up by hand
(carefully lifting at the 25% mark).


Why is it necessary?

It isn't "necessary." It's fully possible to sail without a vang.

....When do you use vang pressure? To do what? If it's
good sometimes, why not all the time?

How much tension should be put on a Vang? Can a strong Deck Ape over
apply tension by hand?

Yes, definitely.


You first Doug. It is a Racers gimmick. Tell us why?

A vang is not a racer's gimmick. It's a very useful tool for controlling
the sail.

OzOne wrote:
It's all about controlling the position of the boom and all that that
entails be it upwind, downwind or gybing.

What a great phrase, "all that that entails." We've had some discussions
here about sail twist, is this the time to revisit the subject?
Basically, the boom vang controls how far the boom rises, which
influences twist. It also, on some boats, keeps the end of the boom from
catching on the backstay in gybes.

BTW let's distinguish between a VANG and a preventer.

On small boats it can be used to induce mast bend, not much joy when
your mast is a tree trunk

It can bend the boom too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote

Why isn't the Vang a Hoisting Device? The Hunter 19 vang was a 3:1
purchase on swivel pelican hooks, originally supplied as the
mainsheet
which it was marginally suitable for.

A HandyBilly!


We used it with a gin pole for
raising the mast, on those few occasions I didn't lever it up by
hand
(carefully lifting at the 25% mark).


That's impossible, according to Moron.



How much tension should be put on a Vang? Can a strong Deck Ape
over
apply tension by hand?

Yes, definitely.

What would fail / bend first?




Scotty

Scott Vernon wrote:
A HandyBilly!

Exactly. That's an old fashioned term, though.



(carefully lifting at the 25% mark).



That's impossible, according to Moron.

Hey, just 'cuz *he* can't do it, doesn't make it impossible!
;)


How much tension should be put on a Vang? Can a strong Deck Ape
over apply tension by hand?

Yes, definitely.

What would fail / bend first?


OzOne wrote:
Vang tackle or possibly the gooseneck

I'd vote gooseneck. There's a heck of a lot of force on the gooseneck. I
have seen bails distort but not break.

DSK

I should clarify. I can't install a solid vang and still have the
hatch open forward. I don't want to turn the hatch around, I could but
it would cut down on air flow while anchored. I can install a rope
vang and still use the hatch, once the vang is slack. I installed new
main sheet and blocks this season. Was thinking of using the old as a
vang.



"DSK" wrote ...
A HandyBilly!

Exactly. That's an old fashioned term, though.

So is 'sailing'.

Scotty

Sorry Oz,

The Vang isn't ALL about controlling Boom. Sorry.

Ole Thom

Doug,

Good, you came through, as I knew you would.

Twist or sail shape is what its' purpose is.

AND yes, I think it is time to re-visit Twist!

Ole Thom

Great Scotty!!

A "HandyBilly" ah yes!! You rememder lessons learned on the "Pau"

Over tension probably wouldn't break or bend anything but would make the
top of the sail "Hook" . A lousy thing for sailing!

Ole Thom

Yeah Scotty.. it doubles as a cherry picker for those dockside cargo loads
of squirty cheese and beer.

CM

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| twin cruising vang???
|
| "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| ...
| Scott,
|
| You should think about the twin cruising vang. It can act as a
| preventer
| & vang. It will also maintain your sail shape when you let out the
| sheet
| to reach or run.
|
| Ole Thom
|
|
|

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
|
| "DSK" wrote

| We used it with a gin pole for
| raising the mast, on those few occasions I didn't lever it up by
| hand
| (carefully lifting at the 25% mark).
|
|
| That's impossible, according to Moron.

No I didn't...

CM

"DSK" wrote in message
| That's impossible, according to Moron.
|
| Hey, just 'cuz *he* can't do it, doesn't make it impossible!
| ;)

I never said any such thing you lying pricks.. the both of you! :-)

CM

Thom Stewart wrote:

Over tension probably wouldn't break or bend anything but would make the
top of the sail "Hook" . A lousy thing for sailing!

You're right. It probably won't break or bend anything. Unfortunately,
"probably" isn't good enough when it comes to keeping the rig intact. A
rig with a 65% chance of making it through the afternoon will "probably"
make it, but I wouldn't count on it.

An overtensioned vang can definitely shear off a gooseneck - especially
if you've wanked down hard on the vang to depower while going upwind and
forget to let it off when you bear off to a run. When you're sheeted
in, the force on the goosneck is mostly compression; bear off to a run
and the force is shear. You see this failure on dinghys that have had
the vang upgraded from a stock 3-1 or 4-1 to a 15-1 or 16-1 without
upgrading the gooseneck as well.


--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Oz

A Vang is about controlling sail SHAPE. The Boom becomes involved
because the Vang is attached to the Boom. In that sense I have to agree
with you. The Boom is a sail shaper.

Ole Thom

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Ok Doug,

I' ll give it a try

Since the Vang; Solid or Rope, What ever, has been kicked around as a
Hoisting Device, which it isn't let's talk about what it is for.

Well, it's main function is to pull the boom down. While the boom is over
the travellor, the mainsheet can be used to control the height of the boom.
As the boom moves outboard of the travellor, the sail will lift the boom
unless the vang is used.

However, my boat doesn't have a dedicated topping lift, so I also use it to
keep the boom up as we come into our berth.


Why is it necessary? When do you use vang pressure? To do what? If it's
good sometimes, why not all the time?

Whenever the boom is not over the travellor, the vang can be used to control
sail twist. I suspect that many sailors use it even when the boom is over
the travellor. In this case, the sheet can be eased instead of lowering
the travellor.



How much tension should be put on a Vang? Can a strong Deck Ape over
apply tension by hand?





Let's talk about it.

You first Doug. It is a Racers gimmick. Tell us why?

It isn't a gimmick at all. Cruisers us the vang when going downwind to
reduce "death rolling".


Regards


Donal
--

Donal,

A very good description of a Vangs usage.
When you ease the main sheet past the angle of the traveler, the vang
maintains boom height and sail shape.

That is why I asked about vang tension. Just enough tension on the boom
to start to ease the main sheet when it is close hauled. Any more
tension will force the top of the sail to hook

By the way Donal is you don't have a vang you can set a barbar haul and
get the same results. Set it on the sheet and to the toe rail and you
can still trim the main

Ole Thom

Donal,

The "Death Roll" there is a much better adjustment.

Called a "Preventer" It is a line from the end of the boom and taken
forward. With the pressure of the Preventer and the pressure of the main
sheet set, holding the trim, the boom is pretty well stabilised.

If you are using a Vang that's been unclipped and fastened to the deck
or toe rail it do the same thing but can be a PITA if you need to get
rid of it fast, A single line or "Kicking Strap" as you English call
them does the same thing but that can even be a bigger PITA. A good fore
deck crew with a sharp knife can be pretty handy,

How's that Doug. Is that enough talk about "PREVENTERS?"

Ole Thom

Thom Stewart scribbled thusly:
Donal,
The "Death Roll" there is a much better adjustment.


OzOne wrote:
Ahhh the death roll.
Can anyone tell me what you do with the vang to reduced the roll when
running square?

Pull it, hard.

That's a bit of a simplification, of course. Sheeting in helps, and not
steering into it. It takes a relaxed & confident hand on the helm to not
make the death roll worse with the rudder.

DSK

After spending a couple of days with Thom and much of it discussing the
finer points of sail shaping I went back to my riggers to double check on
the direction of work. In relating that discussion Dan "the head rigger"
made a rather useful comment. "Remember your system is designed with
multiple ways of doing things. Each situation on the ocean is different and
you will have the ability to pick the best setup each time." Somewhere
back in the dim recesses of memory I recall being given that advice by none
other than Thom. Sure enough I'd specified that to the rigging shop. So,
for example, the ability to run all lines from the cockpit is not limited to
that position. The mast mounted winches and cleats are still there. The
assymetrical cruising spinnaker and assymetrical drifter/reacher don't need
a pole but the fittings are on the mast and the poles in place. Sooner or
later winging will be needed. The power vang has a standard brother that
awaits it's opportunity and can be mounted traditionally or to the toe rail
areas as Thom suggested. The boom and deck are fitted for preventers even a
gybing brake. Stays'l stay is removable to open up the fore deck when
needed, and so on.

Also a thank you to another group of saiing folk, the racers, is due.
The loft is preparing triple stitched heavy duty offshore sails but along
with the rigging and spars they all have the refinements and sail shaping
abilities of setups found normally on only racing boats. Why is that?
Because the techniques that shave a tenth of second rounding the mark for
the racers can also be applied to every day saiing especially longer
passages. The difference may only be 1/2 knot per hour but translate that
into less wear and tear, a better motion in the water and 12 knots a day.
You've just arrived in Hawaii two or three days earlier. The use of those
racing skills does not have to be for a trophy or record but just to make
things work better and you pay closer attention to conditions as a result.
Not a bad way to go!

Well it's time for this acolyte to head for the union hall and sign up for
the next ship. However well the riggers and sail loft do their work, it has
to be paid for and not eventually.

Now Thom, about that consulting bill. Do you accept oyster po'boys?

Michael

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Donal,

The "Death Roll" there is a much better adjustment.

Called a "Preventer" It is a line from the end of the boom and taken
forward. With the pressure of the Preventer and the pressure of the main
sheet set, holding the trim, the boom is pretty well stabilised.

If you are using a Vang that's been unclipped and fastened to the deck
or toe rail it do the same thing but can be a PITA if you need to get
rid of it fast, A single line or "Kicking Strap" as you English call
them does the same thing but that can even be a bigger PITA. A good fore
deck crew with a sharp knife can be pretty handy,

How's that Doug. Is that enough talk about "PREVENTERS?"

Ole Thom

Still hurting from my shooting down your 25% thing, eh? Go sailing,
you'll get over it.......eventually.

Scotty


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Yeah Scotty.. it doubles as a cherry picker for those dockside cargo
loads
of squirty cheese and beer.

CM

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| twin cruising vang???
|
| "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| ...
| Scott,
|
| You should think about the twin cruising vang. It can act as a
| preventer
| & vang. It will also maintain your sail shape when you let out
the
| sheet
| to reach or run.
|
| Ole Thom
|
|
|

Still hurting from my shooting down your 25% thing, eh?


25% of a lie is still a lie and now your even lying about that.
Liar!

RB