Windlass Electrical Connection
 

I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for
recharging.

Thanks for the help.

Ray Cullum
S/V FROLIC

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Why add the extra weight f a battery in the front where you don't want it?

I'd use heavy gauge wire and run it from the house bank.

Ray Cullum wrote

I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like
some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank
which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to
the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly
for
recharging.

Thanks for the help.

Ray Cullum
S/V FROLIC

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

I never bought the logic, neither did my builder, who used the "long wire"
approach.

Consider, for a 80 foot round trip and an 80 Amp load, you want "2" gauge wire
for a 10% loss. Being conservative, you might go to "0" gauge. That 80 feet
weighs 35 pounds. So the result is you would put a 35 pound starting battery in
the bow instead of distributing 35 pounds along the length. And we're not
talking about all the complications of keeping an extra battery charged and
happy. The only virtue is that you now have some redundancy in a critical area.
But you also have another failure mode.

There are other issues, like how do you prevent 80 amps from going down the
charger wire if you raise the anchor when the engine is running? And if you
don't keep up with the use, how large a battery to you need to ensure you have
the juice to reset the anchor several times, the last time, of course, in the
middle of the night?



"Ray Cullum" wrote in message
...
I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for
recharging.

Thanks for the help.

Ray Cullum
S/V FROLIC

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

He doesn't say, but if he's adding a windless, he's probably adding an
all chain rode and he is probably a cruiser. The added weight of a
battery forward (it doesen't have to be in the extreme pointy end) is
negligable when considered with all the other gear he is carrying.
Electrically it makes sense and he doesnt even need another output on
the charger, he can use a battery combiner. http://www.yandina.com/
Also, if the battery would be 40' from a 700 amp battery bank, I
suggest he's got a big enough platform.

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:17:14 GMT, "Bart Senior"
wrote:

Why add the extra weight f a battery in the front where you don't want it?

I'd use heavy gauge wire and run it from the house bank.

Ray Cullum wrote

I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like
some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank
which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to
the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly
for
recharging.

Thanks for the help.

Ray Cullum
S/V FROLIC

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Would it make any difference on a boat that large? I think it wouldn't
be a bad thing to have another bat. Also seems like a lot less work,
hassle. Either would work though.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
et...
Why add the extra weight f a battery in the front where you don't want it?

I'd use heavy gauge wire and run it from the house bank.

Ray Cullum wrote

I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like
some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank
which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close
to
the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance
and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery
strictly
for
recharging.

Thanks for the help.

Ray Cullum
S/V FROLIC

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

"Marc" wrote in message
...
He doesn't say, but if he's adding a windless, he's probably adding an
all chain rode

Why? Many (most? virtually all?) windlasses now handle rope/chain pretty well.
Certainly there a class of cruiser that prefers all-chain, but I'm not sure this
represents the majority.

and he is probably a cruiser.

True, a racer would have an FX-7

The added weight of a
battery forward (it doesen't have to be in the extreme pointy end) is
negligable when considered with all the other gear he is carrying.

Actually, it might be more than the chain. I have 50 pounds of chain, and a 35
pound windlass. I'm glad I don't have another 50 pounds of battery up there.
Of course, my cat is a bit weight sensitive, so this is an issue for me.


Electrically it makes sense

Why?

and he doesnt even need another output on
the charger, he can use a battery combiner. http://www.yandina.com/
Also, if the battery would be 40' from a 700 amp battery bank, I
suggest he's got a big enough platform.





On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:17:14 GMT, "Bart Senior"
wrote:

Why add the extra weight f a battery in the front where you don't want it?

I'd use heavy gauge wire and run it from the house bank.

Ray Cullum wrote

I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like
some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank
which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to
the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly
for
recharging.

Thanks for the help.

Ray Cullum
S/V FROLIC

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Jeff Morris wrote:
I never bought the logic, neither did my builder, who used the "long wire"
approach.

IMHO there are benefits to both approaches, but to choose one over the
other, you need to do some careful math.


Consider, for a 80 foot round trip and an 80 Amp load, you want "2" gauge wire
for a 10% loss.

I think that's a bit on the light side. Most charts only show wire run
lengths up to 60' and a medium size windlass is going to be a 100 amp
load anyway.

A 10% voltage drop is significant. Might knock other things off line,
especially any digital devices. I'd prefer to size things for a lower
voltage drop anyway, where practical.


... Being conservative, you might go to "0" gauge. That 80 feet
weighs 35 pounds. So the result is you would put a 35 pound starting battery in
the bow instead of distributing 35 pounds along the length.
And we're not
talking about all the complications of keeping an extra battery charged and
happy. The only virtue is that you now have some redundancy in a critical area.
But you also have another failure mode.

Either way you go, yo have another failure mode possible. If there is a
short somewhere along the 80' wiring run, the lack of resistance will
kill your whole battery bank really quick, and possibly leave scorch marks.


There are other issues, like how do you prevent 80 amps from going down the
charger wire if you raise the anchor when the engine is running? And if you
don't keep up with the use, how large a battery to you need to ensure you have
the juice to reset the anchor several times, the last time, of course, in the
middle of the night?

Well, how do you insure that your house bank isn't drained by resetting
the anchor in the middle of the night? How do you feel about sawing
holes in bulkheads to run two passes of #0 cable (or bigger) with
looming of course? How about running that big a load to ground and
putting back voltage spike on everything else in your 12V system?

There are plusses and minusses to both running cable and putting in a
dedicated windlass battery. IMHO Ray's case is just over the edge where
it looks like a good case for a dedicated windlass battery.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

You do raise some interesting points, though I don't think any of them are even
close to the downside of an extra battery. For instance, you still need a
fairly large wire run to deal with, though not 1/0. And how do you prevent that
from melting if it ends up carrying the windlass load. BTW, all windlass
connections should be through an appropriate breaker, and should be turned off
when not used - you certainly don't want to start the windlass going if you're
stumbling around the foredeck and trip on a switch! Scorching should not be a
possibility in any proper setup.

The house bank won't get run down (hopefully) because its monitored by an
AmpHour meter, and since the odds are high one will be powering for at least a
few minutes before or after setting or hauling, there should be not problem. A
dedicated battery could have a problem that goes un-noticed until total failure.
If spiking is a concern, the windlass could be wired not to the house bank, but
to the starter battery.


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:
I never bought the logic, neither did my builder, who used the "long wire"
approach.

IMHO there are benefits to both approaches, but to choose one over the
other, you need to do some careful math.


Consider, for a 80 foot round trip and an 80 Amp load, you want "2" gauge
wire
for a 10% loss.

I think that's a bit on the light side. Most charts only show wire run
lengths up to 60' and a medium size windlass is going to be a 100 amp
load anyway.

A 10% voltage drop is significant. Might knock other things off line,
especially any digital devices. I'd prefer to size things for a lower
voltage drop anyway, where practical.


... Being conservative, you might go to "0" gauge. That 80 feet
weighs 35 pounds. So the result is you would put a 35 pound starting
battery in
the bow instead of distributing 35 pounds along the length.
And we're not
talking about all the complications of keeping an extra battery charged and
happy. The only virtue is that you now have some redundancy in a critical
area.
But you also have another failure mode.

Either way you go, yo have another failure mode possible. If there is a
short somewhere along the 80' wiring run, the lack of resistance will
kill your whole battery bank really quick, and possibly leave scorch marks.


There are other issues, like how do you prevent 80 amps from going down the
charger wire if you raise the anchor when the engine is running? And if you
don't keep up with the use, how large a battery to you need to ensure you
have
the juice to reset the anchor several times, the last time, of course, in
the
middle of the night?

Well, how do you insure that your house bank isn't drained by resetting
the anchor in the middle of the night? How do you feel about sawing
holes in bulkheads to run two passes of #0 cable (or bigger) with
looming of course? How about running that big a load to ground and
putting back voltage spike on everything else in your 12V system?

There are plusses and minusses to both running cable and putting in a
dedicated windlass battery. IMHO Ray's case is just over the edge where
it looks like a good case for a dedicated windlass battery.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

In article , Ray Cullum
wrote:

I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for
recharging.

You've seen the other replies and the pros/cons. For a different
perspective, have you considered hydraulics? Keep the motor near the
battery bank and run the hydraulic lines to the winch. You can get 12V
DC motors & pumps, run a pump off your main engine via a magnetic
clutch or even a 110V AC motor via invertor.

This is fishing boat tech, not yacht, so of course it may not be as
elegant but it will work much more reliably. I think 12V DC anchor
winches are inventions designed to kill batteries and fail when most
needed.

PDW

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

DSK wrote:
Jeff Morris wrote:


Consider, for a 80 foot round trip and an 80 Amp load, you want "2"
gauge wire
for a 10% loss.


I think that's a bit on the light side. Most charts only show wire run
lengths up to 60' and a medium size windlass is going to be a 100 amp
load anyway.

A 10% voltage drop is significant. Might knock other things off line,
especially any digital devices. I'd prefer to size things for a lower
voltage drop anyway, where practical.


The voltage drop will be at the motor, not the house battery end.

Cheers

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Nav wrote:
The voltage drop will be at the motor, not the house battery end.

If you have a 10% voltage drop at the motor, there will be a noticable
drop at the battery terminals too.

Ever notice the way an ammeter swings when you turn the starter? Hint:
very few cars wire the ammeter sensor leads to the starter terminals.

DSK

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

What Nav is saying is there will be a 10% drop across the wire itself. This is
on top of the serious drop caused by the 100 Amp load on the house bank.

Of course, the engine will likely be running, so the load might be partially
offset, depending on how the alternator behaves at low rpm.

BTW, my system has the windlass and inverter (i.e. microwave) off the house
bank. A few times I've noticed the affect of the voltage drops, especially if
it goes below 12, but I've never been "spiked."



"DSK" wrote in message
...
Nav wrote:
The voltage drop will be at the motor, not the house battery end.

If you have a 10% voltage drop at the motor, there will be a noticable
drop at the battery terminals too.

Ever notice the way an ammeter swings when you turn the starter? Hint:
very few cars wire the ammeter sensor leads to the starter terminals.

DSK

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

an isolating relay on the charging line should do it (i.e., normally closed
switch in the charging line that opens whenever the windlass is powered.

"Jeff Morris" wrote
{snip}
There are other issues, like how do you prevent 80 amps from going down
the
charger wire if you raise the anchor when the engine is running?

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Jeff Morris wrote:
What Nav is saying is there will be a 10% drop across the wire itself.

OK, I did not read that into what he wrote.

... This is
on top of the serious drop caused by the 100 Amp load on the house bank.

Sure. You know that and I know that, but...


Of course, the engine will likely be running, so the load might be partially
offset, depending on how the alternator behaves at low rpm.

That's true, and it makes it more complicated to wire a charger to a
dedicated windlass battery.



BTW, my system has the windlass and inverter (i.e. microwave) off the house
bank. A few times I've noticed the affect of the voltage drops, especially if
it goes below 12, but I've never been "spiked."

Our inverter gets very unhappy and makes loud unhappy beeping noises, at
a frequency that loosens your fillings, if the voltage drops below it's
comfort zone. If the drop is large, it will shut off. That's the only
fancy electronics we have at present, but I understand a lot of things
(like radios) show signs of distress with low voltage. bad for motors
too. Of course good electronics will have a low votlage shut-off.

We ae planning to install a new bigger house bank and a windlass in the
near future, I'm still studying how I want to do it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Electronics are rarely damaged by low voltage. Of much greater concern
is the switching of inductive loads (like motors) which cause voltage
spikes. Good capacitive supression at the motor is a very good idea if
you value your electronics. In this regard, the resistance of the wire
to the motor can be considered a protective element.

Cheers

DSK wrote:
Jeff Morris wrote:

What Nav is saying is there will be a 10% drop across the wire itself.


OK, I did not read that into what he wrote.

... This is
on top of the serious drop caused by the 100 Amp load on the house bank.


Sure. You know that and I know that, but...


Of course, the engine will likely be running, so the load might be
partially
offset, depending on how the alternator behaves at low rpm.


That's true, and it makes it more complicated to wire a charger to a
dedicated windlass battery.



BTW, my system has the windlass and inverter (i.e. microwave) off the
house
bank. A few times I've noticed the affect of the voltage drops,
especially if
it goes below 12, but I've never been "spiked."


Our inverter gets very unhappy and makes loud unhappy beeping noises, at
a frequency that loosens your fillings, if the voltage drops below it's
comfort zone. If the drop is large, it will shut off. That's the only
fancy electronics we have at present, but I understand a lot of things
(like radios) show signs of distress with low voltage. bad for motors
too. Of course good electronics will have a low votlage shut-off.

We ae planning to install a new bigger house bank and a windlass in the
near future, I'm still studying how I want to do it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Good suggestion! A family friend died when an auto battery
exploded.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
(Ray Cullum) wrote in message
...
I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like
some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system.

The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank
which is
700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close
to the
windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance
and
sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery
strictly for
recharging.

Thanks for the help.

Ray Cullum
S/V FROLIC



Weight is not an issue. Having an extra battery just for a winch is a
good ideal as long as you can properly ventilate the compartment. Ive
seen more diesel boats blow up due to battery gas than any other
reason.

Joe

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

I don't know the circumstances other than he was trying
to jump a dead battery. It was many years ago.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:44:58 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
scribbled thusly:

Good suggestion! A family friend died when an auto battery
exploded.

Hmmm, often because it was low on water and arced internally.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:44:58 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Good suggestion! A family friend died when an auto battery
exploded.


Liar. You have no friends.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Windlass Electrical Connection
 

Good one Horass, you're getting better.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:44:58 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Good suggestion! A family friend died when an auto battery
exploded.


Liar. You have no friends.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!