Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

Well, I was sailing on Lake Mead with a friend and we were in his South
Coast 26'a and we were having a fun race against a bunch of Mac 26'Xers and
the water was like glass and the winds was almost nonexistent. We were ahead
of everyone, then this old salt who in one of the Max 26'Xs sailed past us
like we were sitting still. He passed close and his motor was out of the
water. I spoke with him later and he said he had made some slight
adjustments to his standing rigging. I am not sure, but I think he angled
the mast back, and he did some other things he would not divulge. Now the
next day, the winds were blowing 18 plus and the last time I looked back, I
could not even see the closest Mac 26'x with binoculars! We humiliated them.
I guess the 1,400 bulb / fin keel is a slight advantage over water balast.
In light winds, they can pump out ballast and pick up a little speed I
guess. Now we out sailed all the Mac 26'Xs in low winds except that one and
he always beats all the other Mac 26'Xs. Well, that's my story.

Sea Yawl,
John

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

If he emptied his ballast the SA/Disp ratio would be up over 25. With a well
shaped sail and flat water, that should allow it to outperform most boats.
Also, if it was off the wind, he probably had the board up. Off course, the
"capsize ratio" will be dangerously low, and the "motion comfort" factor will be
poor.


"FamilySailor" wrote in message ...
Well, I was sailing on Lake Mead with a friend and we were in his South
Coast 26'a and we were having a fun race against a bunch of Mac 26'Xers and
the water was like glass and the winds was almost nonexistent. We were ahead
of everyone, then this old salt who in one of the Max 26'Xs sailed past us
like we were sitting still. He passed close and his motor was out of the
water. I spoke with him later and he said he had made some slight
adjustments to his standing rigging. I am not sure, but I think he angled
the mast back, and he did some other things he would not divulge. Now the
next day, the winds were blowing 18 plus and the last time I looked back, I
could not even see the closest Mac 26'x with binoculars! We humiliated them.
I guess the 1,400 bulb / fin keel is a slight advantage over water balast.
In light winds, they can pump out ballast and pick up a little speed I
guess. Now we out sailed all the Mac 26'Xs in low winds except that one and
he always beats all the other Mac 26'Xs. Well, that's my story.

Sea Yawl,
John

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

Funny, I've only sailed close to macs on two occasions, one of which was in
very light winds, 4 kts., I was flying my a-sail and I passed the mac up
like he was standing still, which I think he was. Guess he was practicing
light-air sailing.
John Cairns
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
If he emptied his ballast the SA/Disp ratio would be up over 25. With a
well
shaped sail and flat water, that should allow it to outperform most boats.
Also, if it was off the wind, he probably had the board up. Off course,
the
"capsize ratio" will be dangerously low, and the "motion comfort" factor
will be
poor.


"FamilySailor" wrote in message
...
Well, I was sailing on Lake Mead with a friend and we were in his South
Coast 26'a and we were having a fun race against a bunch of Mac 26'Xers
and
the water was like glass and the winds was almost nonexistent. We were
ahead
of everyone, then this old salt who in one of the Max 26'Xs sailed past
us
like we were sitting still. He passed close and his motor was out of the
water. I spoke with him later and he said he had made some slight
adjustments to his standing rigging. I am not sure, but I think he
angled
the mast back, and he did some other things he would not divulge. Now
the
next day, the winds were blowing 18 plus and the last time I looked
back, I
could not even see the closest Mac 26'x with binoculars! We humiliated
them.
I guess the 1,400 bulb / fin keel is a slight advantage over water
balast.
In light winds, they can pump out ballast and pick up a little speed I
guess. Now we out sailed all the Mac 26'Xs in low winds except that one
and
he always beats all the other Mac 26'Xs. Well, that's my story.

Sea Yawl,
John

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

We were in winds under one knot. We sailed away from all the Macs, but that
one. He did and knew something! There was some tactical errors on the part
of the captain (in my opinion). He tacked 4 times more often that he should
have. He made 4 tacks to the old guys one! That put the Mac in the direction
the wind was coming from and when it picked up just a little he got it way
before we did.

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

You answered you question with your last post. The old guy had experience
and out sailed you.
"FamilySailor" wrote in message
...
We were in winds under one knot. We sailed away from all the Macs, but
that
one. He did and knew something! There was some tactical errors on the part
of the captain (in my opinion). He tacked 4 times more often that he
should
have. He made 4 tacks to the old guys one! That put the Mac in the
direction
the wind was coming from and when it picked up just a little he got it way
before we did.

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

We were in winds under one knot. We sailed away from all the Macs..

That's some light air performer you got there.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

That would explain the over all race, but that does not explain when he was
50 feet away and sailed right by and we were on the same tack. As I recall
we had a 130 up as did he. The wind picked up the next day and it was NO
CONTEST!

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

We were crawling along and dripping with sweat :-(
It was a long day, until a breeze picked up about 7 hours later!

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

Maybe he doesn't know what apparent wind is. He could have been sailing
DDW,
thinking the wind was less than one knot, when it was actually 6 knots.

BB

We were beating into the wind. and the water was like glass. And you should
know that you could have a wind speed of 0.1 knots and it will move the boat
if there is no current opposing it. The speed of the boat is relative to the
speed of the wind. I guess most people would crank up the screaming
outboard, but we were there for a week of sailing and in no hurry. We had
all day to go from Echo bay to Center point. Most of the Macs cranked up
their engines and beat us there, but we sailed all the way. And sailing in
while others gave up, just makes you feel good about whole day. In the days
of old all they had were their sails. As far as the captain making too many
tacks, well, I gave my advice once and did not worry about it. I was not the
skipper and it did not really matter. I was there to get away and sail. The
Mac that passed us did point that out to the skipper later that evening
though.

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"FamilySailor" wrote in message ...
Maybe he doesn't know what apparent wind is. He could have been sailing
DDW,
thinking the wind was less than one knot, when it was actually 6 knots.

BB

We were beating into the wind. and the water was like glass. And you should
know that you could have a wind speed of 0.1 knots and it will move the boat
if there is no current opposing it.

No, I'll go out on a limb and claim that in a practical situation, 0.1 knots of
wind will not generate enough force to overcome the hull friction. At one knot,
the pressure on the sail is roughly a pound or two - but the force is
proportional to the square of the wind strength, so at 0.1 knots of wind we're
down to several grams of force.

Even if you could go at the wind speed (highly unlikely), that's only 600 feet
in an hour.

The speed of the boat is relative to the
speed of the wind. I guess most people would crank up the screaming
outboard, but we were there for a week of sailing and in no hurry.

I remember a regatta that was postponed due to lack of wind - we held "kinetic
races" using all the techniques strictly forbidden by the rules. Several
skippers were doing a few knots just by roll tacking viorously.

We had
all day to go from Echo bay to Center point. Most of the Macs cranked up
their engines and beat us there, but we sailed all the way. And sailing in
while others gave up, just makes you feel good about whole day. In the days
of old all they had were their sails.

And their oars.

As far as the captain making too many
tacks, well, I gave my advice once and did not worry about it. I was not the
skipper and it did not really matter. I was there to get away and sail. The
Mac that passed us did point that out to the skipper later that evening
though.

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

And you should
know that you could have a wind speed of 0.1 knots and it will move the boat
if there is no current opposing it.

Excuse me but if you had winds of .1 kts or anything less than 1 kt your sails
were probably hanging limp.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

They were hanging limp alright. For quite a while. We would get an
immeasurable puff every now and then. I'm not too worried about convincing
you. I was there. You believing me or not changes nothing. What is, is what
is and what we did is what we did...
;-)
Winds were below 1 knot and we were making headway. I used the 0.1 knot just
as a number to post for my example. Oh, and the friction of the water
against the hull in nonexistant (zero), until the hull starts to move, then
you have friction. So as we moved along slowly the friction slowed us as it
always does with all boats. But, unless the water is moving against the
forward motion of the hull, or is frozen solid, it will not hold your boat
stationary. That was a good one! Fluid motionless water holding a sailboat
stationary.......

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

maybe you were in hard water ; )
Scout

"FamilySailor" wrote in message
...
They were hanging limp alright. For quite a while. We would get an
immeasurable puff every now and then. I'm not too worried about convincing
you. I was there. You believing me or not changes nothing. What is, is
what
is and what we did is what we did...
;-)
Winds were below 1 knot and we were making headway. I used the 0.1 knot
just
as a number to post for my example. Oh, and the friction of the water
against the hull in nonexistant (zero), until the hull starts to move,
then
you have friction. So as we moved along slowly the friction slowed us as
it
always does with all boats. But, unless the water is moving against the
forward motion of the hull, or is frozen solid, it will not hold your boat
stationary. That was a good one! Fluid motionless water holding a sailboat
stationary.......

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"FamilySailor" wrote in message ...
They were hanging limp alright. For quite a while. We would get an
immeasurable puff every now and then. I'm not too worried about convincing
you. I was there. You believing me or not changes nothing. What is, is what
is and what we did is what we did...
;-)

I certainly don't doubt that you were ... I've been there myself.


Winds were below 1 knot and we were making headway.

I'm curious, how do you measure that? The various annemometers I have stop
turning at speeds that low. Even smoke rising from a cigarette is close to
vertical when you go much below a knot.

I used the 0.1 knot just
as a number to post for my example. Oh, and the friction of the water
against the hull in nonexistant (zero), until the hull starts to move, then
you have friction.
So as we moved along slowly the friction slowed us as it
always does with all boats. But, unless the water is moving against the
forward motion of the hull, or is frozen solid, it will not hold your boat
stationary. That was a good one! Fluid motionless water holding a sailboat
stationary.......



I'm sure there is some component of friction that is not dependent on speed,
though it may be quite small. Its a little hard to find data for this, since it
has no commerical value.

However, I did say "in a practical situation," so it becomes fairly hard to show
that there's any motion on a 3 ton boat when there's only a few grams of force
(unless its in space). There are other problems - such as holding anything
like a proper sail shape, and leeway can be atrocious at very low speed. And
the rudder is effectively useless. Actually, if the wind was truely that low,
any rocking of the boat, or rudder motion would generate greater forces than the
wind.

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

Winds were below 1 knot and we were making headway.

I'm curious, how do you measure that? The various annemometers I have
stop
turning at speeds that low. Even smoke rising from a cigarette is close
to
vertical when you go much below a knot.

Well, one could pee in the water and then watch the bubbles. I just watched
the water moving past the rudder and the sediment in the water moving from
the bow to the stern. How would you detect movement? We also had a GPS that
was leaving tracks. Another thing, we ended up at a different location, so I
believe that would indicate some movement was involved. You act like 1 knot
is almost stationary and smoke would go straight up, but think about it.
That is moving at a rate 5,280 in just one hour, or 1.47' per second. It is
easy to detect movement and using a GPS to measure distance and the amount
of time required to cover that distance. Anyway, I did not do all that, I
just made an observation and said the wind speed is about 1 knot or less, no
measuring device needed. Give me a break.

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

We also had a GPS that was leaving tracks.

That only means you were moving over the bottom. Not thru the water. You were
probably drifting with the current.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"FamilySailor" wrote in message ...
Winds were below 1 knot and we were making headway.

I'm curious, how do you measure that? The various annemometers I have
stop
turning at speeds that low. Even smoke rising from a cigarette is close
to
vertical when you go much below a knot.

Well, one could pee in the water and then watch the bubbles. I just watched
the water moving past the rudder and the sediment in the water moving from
the bow to the stern. How would you detect movement? We also had a GPS that
was leaving tracks. Another thing, we ended up at a different location, so I
believe that would indicate some movement was involved.

I wasn't questioning whether you were moving, though I doubt very much you were
going at wind speed in a drifter. In fact, the only reason I commented at all
is that I've never heard anyone talk about a windspeed of a tenth of a knot, and
I thought that was a curious concept to explore.

You act like 1 knot
is almost stationary and smoke would go straight up, but think about it.
That is moving at a rate 5,280 in just one hour, or 1.47' per second.

I did the same calculation (though I used the correct value for one knot, which
is 1.69 feet/second) before posting, which is why I said "much less than a
knot." The smoke from a cigarette rises pretty quickly. so you actually have
less than a second's worth to observe. In reality, in very light air like this
the wind can be virtually zero in the cockpit, but a knot or two, or more,
aloft.

It is
easy to detect movement and using a GPS to measure distance and the amount
of time required to cover that distance. Anyway, I did not do all that, I
just made an observation and said the wind speed is about 1 knot or less, no
measuring device needed. Give me a break.

Never! No nit can go unpicked!!! ;-}

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

That only means you were moving over the bottom. Not thru the water. You
were
probably drifting with the current.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

We left top of the lake and landed at the south end. I said I watched
sticks, grass etc. moving along the side of the hull from bow to stern. EOD

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

OK the wind was very light and ranged from zero to about a knot more or
less. Even at 0.1 knot in one hour the air would travel 528'

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"FamilySailor" wrote in message
...
Winds were below 1 knot and we were making headway.

I'm curious, how do you measure that? The various annemometers I have
stop
turning at speeds that low. Even smoke rising from a cigarette is
close
to
vertical when you go much below a knot.

Well, one could pee in the water and then watch the bubbles. I just
watched
the water moving past the rudder and the sediment in the water moving
from
the bow to the stern. How would you detect movement? We also had a GPS
that
was leaving tracks. Another thing, we ended up at a different location,
so I
believe that would indicate some movement was involved.

I wasn't questioning whether you were moving, though I doubt very much you
were
going at wind speed in a drifter. In fact, the only reason I commented at
all
is that I've never heard anyone talk about a windspeed of a tenth of a
knot, and
I thought that was a curious concept to explore.

You act like 1 knot
is almost stationary and smoke would go straight up, but think about it.
That is moving at a rate 5,280 in just one hour, or 1.47' per second.

I did the same calculation (though I used the correct value for one knot,
which
is 1.69 feet/second) before posting, which is why I said "much less than a
knot." The smoke from a cigarette rises pretty quickly. so you actually
have
less than a second's worth to observe. In reality, in very light air like
this
the wind can be virtually zero in the cockpit, but a knot or two, or more,
aloft.

It is
easy to detect movement and using a GPS to measure distance and the
amount
of time required to cover that distance. Anyway, I did not do all that,
I
just made an observation and said the wind speed is about 1 knot or
less, no
measuring device needed. Give me a break.

Never! No nit can go unpicked!!! ;-}

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"FamilySailor" wrote in message ...
OK the wind was very light and ranged from zero to about a knot more or
less. Even at 0.1 knot in one hour the air would travel 528'

No, its 607.61154856 feet. ;-}

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

No, its 607.61154856 feet. ;-}


Hmmmm. I guess I uses 5280' in a mile as opposed to 6076.115' in a Nautical
mile....... hehehehe. Your good!

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"FamilySailor" wrote in message ...
No, its 607.61154856 feet. ;-}


Hmmmm. I guess I uses 5280' in a mile as opposed to 6076.115' in a Nautical
mile....... hehehehe. Your good!

I spent 25 years as a professional nitpicker for NASA and IBM. Do you think I
miss it a bit?

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

A couple of question (Of Unknown value)

When saling on a Lake; Is it knots or MPH?

Is there a varying Current on a Lake?

Things I'd like to know;

On a water Ballast Vessel, can you reduce Ballast when floating level?

If so, how is it done?

Thanks,
Ole Thom

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

A couple of question (Of Unknown value)

When saling on a Lake; Is it knots or MPH?
Answer: YES


Is there a varying Current on a Lake?
Answer: Yes & NO


Things I'd like to know;

On a water Ballast Vessel, can you reduce Ballast when floating level?
Answer: YES


If so, how is it done?
Answer: Fire up the 50 horse iron wind and pull the plug.


Thanks,
Ole Thom

I have never owned a water ballast vessel, so that should be taken into
consideration when reading my answers ;-)

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
A couple of question (Of Unknown value)

When saling on a Lake; Is it knots or MPH?
Not sure, but on the Erie Canal and ICW statute miles are so prevalent the we
switched the log to read in miles and mph.



Is there a varying Current on a Lake?

Depends - some lake are even tidal. ANd some have currents that are dependent
on rainfall, etc.



Things I'd like to know;

On a water Ballast Vessel, can you reduce Ballast when floating level?
Yes, but on many its considered dangerous - consider the affect of 500 pounds of
water sloshing in the bilge!


If so, how is it done?

Thanks,
Ole Thom

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"FamilySailor" wrote

We left top of the lake and landed at the south end.

That explains it, you were going downhill.

SV

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote

On a water Ballast Vessel, can you reduce Ballast when floating level?

If so, how is it done?

Some of the Mac sailors used bilge pump to drain the tank. Some used an air
inflator to 'push' the water outa the drain hole.

Scotty

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

That explains it, you were going downhill.

SV

HUH? We were beating into the wind........ All the way!
I give up.....

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

Thanks Scott!
OT

Mac 26x for sailing speed
 

the water drains out of the tank by the negative
pressure created as the boat moves forward.

--
Longing to be closer to to the sun, the wind and the sea!
Spiritually at: Latitude 21 degrees 19' 9" North. _!_
Longtitude 157 degrees 56' 31" West. Aloha! ___o_(_)_o___
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