Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily? If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

Thanks

Richard

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Richard Randall wrote:
Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily?

You can definitely add ballast, I dunno how effective it will be at
making it easier to singlehand. The most effect it would probably have
would be to make it a lot slower, harder to launch & retrieve,
overstress the CB pivot & trunk, and *might* make it slower to turtle
once you've capsized.

In short, as an old 470 sailor, I think it's a bad idea.

... If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

If turtling is the problem, the best answer is to tie a gallon jug to
the mainsail headboard. If you sail in rough water, either tie two, or
else get a small laundry bag and put a beach ball in it, and fasten that
there. The added buoyancy at the mast tip will keep the boat from
turtling and you can right it at leisure.

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

"DSK" wrote in message

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

I think the *original* spaghetti factory was the Flying Dutchman. I agree
that the 470 has enough line to look like a pot of pasta aboil, but there
were two occasions when I wound up with a leg bound by wrapped lines after a
particularly hairy jibe mark in the FD. One sailor in our fleet actually
got dragged behind his FD after falling overboard with lines wrapped around
one of his legs. And we always seemed to have lines trailing out the
Elvstrom bailers. I've heard 470s described as mini-FDs on occasion, I
think more for the mess of lines in the cockpit rather than any similarity
in appearance or performance. The Tempest is another spaghetti factory.

Max

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Scotty

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Richard Randall wrote:
Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily?

You can definitely add ballast, I dunno how effective it will be at
making it easier to singlehand. The most effect it would probably have
would be to make it a lot slower, harder to launch & retrieve,
overstress the CB pivot & trunk, and *might* make it slower to turtle
once you've capsized.

In short, as an old 470 sailor, I think it's a bad idea.

... If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

If turtling is the problem, the best answer is to tie a gallon jug to
the mainsail headboard. If you sail in rough water, either tie two, or
else get a small laundry bag and put a beach ball in it, and fasten that
there. The added buoyancy at the mast tip will keep the boat from
turtling and you can right it at leisure.

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Scott Vernon wrote:
Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Not as usually rigged. It's got a low boom and a bendy mast. You could
put a jiffy reef on it, but it would be difficult to tie in while underway.


Maxprop wrote:
I think the *original* spaghetti factory was the Flying Dutchman.

Ah yes. I stand corrected.


... One sailor in our fleet actually
got dragged behind his FD after falling overboard with lines wrapped around
one of his legs.

That's not such an unusal trick. I've done that on a number of boats
including a JY-15, not really much spaghetti on that one.


And we always seemed to have lines trailing out the
Elvstrom bailers.

Yeah, that's one reason why I hate Elvstrom bailers. They're a great
example of 1950s technology; better than heavy boats with no flotation
and no self-bailers but when you could have a fully self-rescuing, dry
cockpit, open transom, whatever... why???


.... I've heard 470s described as mini-FDs on occasion, I
think more for the mess of lines in the cockpit rather than any similarity
in appearance or performance.

I think the 470 is a little more power per pound, but the Dutchman is a
faster more powerful boat overall. Beautiful, too. Both FD & 470 could
benefit from an update... square head main, double trap, big A-sail...
yee haw!

... The Tempest is another spaghetti factory.

I never liked the Tempest that much. It's a nice boat but it's really a
big 2-person show-off machine. The only benefit it gains from the size
& the keel is that it's better for open water & rougher conditions...
except that they're all old and creaky at this point. Give me a Star or
a Johnson 18 (wait a minute... already got one) or a 505... or a 470 for
that matter!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message

Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Racing dinghies, as a general rule, have no provision for shortening sail,
either main or jib. Many sailors of these boats simply carry a huge luff in
the main to ease the heeling force. I've raced Snipes in 15kts. which ain't
fun, but letting the main luff to the forward edge of the battens pretty
much does the trick.

Max

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Yeah. Keeping the lines clean is a full time job when I'm alone.
It's a nightmare when you're about to go over, reach for the sheet to
blow the jib, and find a bird's nest of lines. Not much spare time to
sort things out.

-r



DSK wrote in message ...
Richard Randall wrote:
Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily?

You can definitely add ballast, I dunno how effective it will be at
making it easier to singlehand. The most effect it would probably have
would be to make it a lot slower, harder to launch & retrieve,
overstress the CB pivot & trunk, and *might* make it slower to turtle
once you've capsized.

In short, as an old 470 sailor, I think it's a bad idea.

... If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

If turtling is the problem, the best answer is to tie a gallon jug to
the mainsail headboard. If you sail in rough water, either tie two, or
else get a small laundry bag and put a beach ball in it, and fasten that
there. The added buoyancy at the mast tip will keep the boat from
turtling and you can right it at leisure.

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Good question. I don't know. I have to sail with a jib because it is
integrated with the forestay. But I was thinking about taking one of
my old mains and having reefs put in. Or maybe sailing without a main?
Has anyone done this? DSK, what do you think?

I know I'm sacrificing speed here, but sailing singlehanded excludes
racing anyway. I don't mind going slow if I can go out more often.
It's just that when the wind picks up, I can't go out by myself.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ...
Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Scotty

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Richard Randall wrote:
Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily?

You can definitely add ballast, I dunno how effective it will be at
making it easier to singlehand. The most effect it would probably have
would be to make it a lot slower, harder to launch & retrieve,
overstress the CB pivot & trunk, and *might* make it slower to turtle
once you've capsized.

In short, as an old 470 sailor, I think it's a bad idea.

... If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

If turtling is the problem, the best answer is to tie a gallon jug to
the mainsail headboard. If you sail in rough water, either tie two, or
else get a small laundry bag and put a beach ball in it, and fasten that
there. The added buoyancy at the mast tip will keep the boat from
turtling and you can right it at leisure.

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

I have a National Solo...

http://www.solosailing.org.uk/index.asp

Which just has a main.... it's very easy to sail.... and 12 feet....

If you want I good safe small boat.....I would suggest a Norca 14 which has
a full keel..... (I think it's a Norca....)
There is one my basin.....it's very easy to sail ......
The guy that bought it never sailed before...in fact I had to show how to
rig the boat.... Now he is out every second night....

Beauty of a keel is that you don't have to worry about the boat capsizing.

Giving you more time to work the sails.....

Tomek


"Richard Randall" wrote in message
om...
Yeah. Keeping the lines clean is a full time job when I'm alone.
It's a nightmare when you're about to go over, reach for the sheet to
blow the jib, and find a bird's nest of lines. Not much spare time to
sort things out.

-r



DSK wrote in message
...
Richard Randall wrote:
Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily?

You can definitely add ballast, I dunno how effective it will be at
making it easier to singlehand. The most effect it would probably have
would be to make it a lot slower, harder to launch & retrieve,
overstress the CB pivot & trunk, and *might* make it slower to turtle
once you've capsized.

In short, as an old 470 sailor, I think it's a bad idea.

... If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

If turtling is the problem, the best answer is to tie a gallon jug to
the mainsail headboard. If you sail in rough water, either tie two, or
else get a small laundry bag and put a beach ball in it, and fasten that
there. The added buoyancy at the mast tip will keep the boat from
turtling and you can right it at leisure.

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

"DSK" wrote in message

Yeah, that's one reason why I hate Elvstrom bailers. They're a great
example of 1950s technology; better than heavy boats with no flotation
and no self-bailers but when you could have a fully self-rescuing, dry
cockpit, open transom, whatever... why???

We bought a new Snipe from Chubasco (a now-defunct company in El Cajon, CA)
years ago. It came with transom cut-outs and Elvstrom bailers as standard
equipment. I requested that the bailers not be installed, and the company
rep questioned my request. Ultimately I ended up installing two super max
units in the bilge pockets because after self-rescuing the bilge still held
around 10 gallons of water. 10 gal = 80lbs. About like taking someone's kid
along. At least on the Snipe the bailers were a necessary evil.

Max

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... bailers
 

Maxprop wrote:
We bought a new Snipe from Chubasco (a now-defunct company in El Cajon, CA)
years ago. It came with transom cut-outs and Elvstrom bailers as standard
equipment. I requested that the bailers not be installed, and the company
rep questioned my request. Ultimately I ended up installing two super max
units in the bilge pockets because after self-rescuing the bilge still held
around 10 gallons of water. 10 gal = 80lbs. About like taking someone's kid
along. At least on the Snipe the bailers were a necessary evil.

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge, and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote...
Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?



Richard Randall wrote:
Good question. I don't know. I have to sail with a jib because it is
integrated with the forestay. But I was thinking about taking one of
my old mains and having reefs put in. Or maybe sailing without a main?
Has anyone done this? DSK, what do you think?

Well, if you've got an old main that you want to experiment with...

I'd suggest getting it re-cut to flatten it (although 470 sails are
already pretty flat IIRC) and take the roach off. No battens, a hollow
curve from boom to mast tip. That will take a LOT of heeling moment off
and it shouldn't affect the helm balance too much. Or you could cut the
leach hollow up to the top batten and put in a really stiff top batten,
that would keep some of the power but make it easier to handle. IMHO
that would be better than trying to put on jiffy or slab reefing.



I know I'm sacrificing speed here, but sailing singlehanded excludes
racing anyway. I don't mind going slow if I can go out more often.
It's just that when the wind picks up, I can't go out by myself.

No racing? Don't you have a handicap class locally? I race the Johnson
18 singehanded sometimes, setting the spinnaker is really fun and I
sometimes wish for a trapeze. Anyway the 470 is a nice boat for good
wind... we had our best races in 20+... so I can see why you want to go!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

On 21 Jul 2004 04:53:06 -0700, (Richard
Randall) wrote this crap:

Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily? If
so, what would be the best way to do it?


Add more people.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Horass likely lots of his fellow boys on the boat.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On 21 Jul 2004 04:53:06 -0700, (Richard
Randall) wrote this crap:

Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily? If
so, what would be the best way to do it?


Add more people.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

How about altering mast bend to allow the sail to twist open more easily
-might be easier than getting the sail recut?

Cheers



DSK wrote:

"Scott Vernon" wrote...

Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?




Richard Randall wrote:

Good question. I don't know. I have to sail with a jib because it is
integrated with the forestay. But I was thinking about taking one of
my old mains and having reefs put in. Or maybe sailing without a main?
Has anyone done this? DSK, what do you think?


Well, if you've got an old main that you want to experiment with...

I'd suggest getting it re-cut to flatten it (although 470 sails are
already pretty flat IIRC) and take the roach off. No battens, a hollow
curve from boom to mast tip. That will take a LOT of heeling moment off
and it shouldn't affect the helm balance too much. Or you could cut the
leach hollow up to the top batten and put in a really stiff top batten,
that would keep some of the power but make it easier to handle. IMHO
that would be better than trying to put on jiffy or slab reefing.



I know I'm sacrificing speed here, but sailing singlehanded excludes
racing anyway. I don't mind going slow if I can go out more often.
It's just that when the wind picks up, I can't go out by myself.


No racing? Don't you have a handicap class locally? I race the Johnson
18 singehanded sometimes, setting the spinnaker is really fun and I
sometimes wish for a trapeze. Anyway the 470 is a nice boat for good
wind... we had our best races in 20+... so I can see why you want to go!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... bailers
 

"DSK" wrote in message

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted. A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge,

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats ;)

We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition. Our local
fleet at Diamond Lake, MI, had 35 active boats, and our invitational regatta
typically drew nearly 100 boats annually. But the Snipe's time is past.
There are many classes now with more interesting hulls and rigs, and today's
young sailors are driving those classes. Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

Max

Int'l 470 ballast ?
 

Nav scribbled thusly:
How about altering mast bend to allow the sail to twist open more easily
-might be easier than getting the sail recut?

470s already have good control of mast bend, and a powerful vang to
allow as much or as little twist as you want. I assumed the original
poster had the skill & knowledge to make relatively simple tuning & trim
adjustments standard for heavy air.


OzOne wrote:
How about learning to sail single handed on the string?

A 470 isn't all that powerful and the leverage provided by the skipper
swinging is small compared to the crew on the string.

Can be done... that's what I was thinking of when suggesting a mast head
float device. It's a blast but all kinds of things can put you in the
drink suddenly.

DSK

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?
S.


"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...
:
: The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle.
No deck, deep bilge
: relative to the transom, and it didn't take much
of a rail in the water to
: ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are
a must on Thistles. I
: learned to hate that boat.
:

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

Maxprop wrote:
Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted.

And can be difficult to climb into from the water... one of the
less-often-told benefits of a completely open transom!

... A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

Rocker is a common term for all kinds of hulls. I don't think a Snipe a
good candidate for a full double bottom, completely self-bailing,
because of the low freeboard & the rocker you mention. A friend of mine
tried to make a Comet fully self-bailing and ended up with a board
boat... it was fun to sail but it wasn't what he intended!

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

The thing I dislike about Thistles is the set of bruises you acquire in
sailing them. Plus droop-hiking is not healthy and I'm getting a bit
creaky (or maybe a bit too smart) to be into that kind of self-abuse.

Pony Express wrote:
Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.

No no, 900 at least!

One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Really vigorous roll tacks? It can't be due to chop because nobody raes
Thistles in 3 knots of wind.

But the Thistle is a classic... a really pretty boat and wicked fast in
light air.


We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition.

There's something to be said for big classes. Fun! But the glory days of
that kind of sailing are over... partly IMHO because American sailors
have vigorously resisted innovation. It's a telling sign that our most
popular classes are all many decades old and not updated much. The Hobie
16 and the Laser are the newest... and among the biggest. When trying to
promote the Johnson 18 we ran into all kinds of devious skullduggery...
and in some cases, vicious lies.

.... Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

The Scow Sailor Mafia was one of the most active groups in murdering any
chance of a Johnson 18 class... ironic considering that a scow builder
invented it & went out of business trying to promote it. Scows are fun
but you'll notice that they're not self-bailing either. We had a great
time in Charleston earlier this year watching a big E-Scow regatta.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

"Pony Express" wrote in

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Good question. We were sailing with a crew of three in about 13-15kts. My
wife was on the jib, I was at the helm, and we had brought aboard a terrific
young kid as rail meat who wanted some racing experience. During one
particularly botched tack the kid lost his footing, fell onto the sole, and
when the sails filled I wasn't quick enough with the mainsheet to keep the
rail outta the drink, nor were my wife and I able to hold the boat flat. My
bad.

As an aside, while getting the rail in the water was not common on Thistles
when racing in normal conditions, we saw it happen often with higher winds.
Mark Reynolds, a sailmaker and top Thistle skipper, did it once during a
regatta in Ohio when he was about 200 ft. from taking the finish gun. Three
boats got around him as a result.

Max

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

"DSK" wrote in message


Maxprop wrote:
Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after
righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water
aboard
when righted.

And can be difficult to climb into from the water... one of the
less-often-told benefits of a completely open transom!

... A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

Rocker is a common term for all kinds of hulls. I don't think a Snipe a
good candidate for a full double bottom, completely self-bailing,
because of the low freeboard & the rocker you mention. A friend of mine
tried to make a Comet fully self-bailing and ended up with a board
boat... it was fun to sail but it wasn't what he intended!

I haven't seen any new Snipes lately, but when we left that class most of
the boats *were* built with a full double bottom. And yes, the sole was
high enough to put your knees in your face, it seemed.


The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water
to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.


The thing I dislike about Thistles is the set of bruises you acquire in
sailing them. Plus droop-hiking is not healthy and I'm getting a bit
creaky (or maybe a bit too smart) to be into that kind of self-abuse.

Thistle sailors suffer a particularly singular malady termed "rail tail"
from sitting on that 2" rail for prolonged periods. Our national newsletter
had ads for special shorts with padding specific to sailing/crewing
Thistles. I bought a pair and they really helped, but they also coined a
new term: "Thistle butt," referring to the way one looked while walking
around the marina in them.


Pony Express wrote:
Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.

No no, 900 at least!

One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Really vigorous roll tacks? It can't be due to chop because nobody raes
Thistles in 3 knots of wind.

But the Thistle is a classic... a really pretty boat and wicked fast in
light air.

I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time
(following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition.


There's something to be said for big classes. Fun! But the glory days of
that kind of sailing are over... partly IMHO because American sailors
have vigorously resisted innovation. It's a telling sign that our most
popular classes are all many decades old and not updated much. The Hobie
16 and the Laser are the newest... and among the biggest. When trying to
promote the Johnson 18 we ran into all kinds of devious skullduggery...
and in some cases, vicious lies.

.... Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC.
Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

The Scow Sailor Mafia was one of the most active groups in murdering any
chance of a Johnson 18 class... ironic considering that a scow builder
invented it & went out of business trying to promote it. Scows are fun
but you'll notice that they're not self-bailing either. We had a great
time in Charleston earlier this year watching a big E-Scow regatta.

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either. Again, like the 505,
they sit really high on their sides when down. And for some reason they
don't even ship much water if turtled and righted. I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.

Max

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

OzOne wrote in message

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:23:35 GMT, "Pony Express"
scribbled thusly:

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?
S.

Ohhhhh Ouch, that was below the belt!

Nah, it was a legitimate question. Even the pros capsize Thistles in heavy
weather. Not frequently, but it happens.

Max

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

Maxprop wrote:
I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

Although the early generation IACC boats designed for racing in San
Diego were great light air boats ;)

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either.

Hah! That's because scow sailors don't go out in 20+ or any real chop.
If you stick the bow under, they swamped and/or flip quite readily. If
you stall the teeny rudder while heeled enough to put the low boom in
the water, they flop over like a dog wanting it's tummy rubbed.

In general, I've found scows to be among the worst behaved high
performance sailboats... but then I wasn't brought up on them. I know a
lot of people who handle them with great ease & finesse, and are not in
the least troubled by their quirks.

I remember crewing in the 470 for one fellow who was a star scow sailor,
who would almost continually grumble "Dammit, this boat boat is hard to
steer" by which he really meant that it was all too easy to steer, he
was zig-zagging so hard I could barely keep my feet on the boat. He also
'way overreacted to upcoming waves. After most of a day, he got more in
the groove... I wondered how he felt about the scows after that
experience...



.... I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.

I've been thinking about getting an MC to race but am less enthusiastic
about driving long distances to regattas than I used to be.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

I think we cheated a lot. :-) Ooching and such were typical in Thistle
fleets. But your point is well taken--Thistles are slippery.

Although the early generation IACC boats designed for racing in San
Diego were great light air boats ;)

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either.

Hah! That's because scow sailors don't go out in 20+ or any real chop.
If you stick the bow under, they swamped and/or flip quite readily. If
you stall the teeny rudder while heeled enough to put the low boom in
the water, they flop over like a dog wanting it's tummy rubbed.

I used to race my MC in 20kts. or better, but always with an agile monster
crewman up front. Of course we sat back on the transom in such winds, and
planed like scalded cats. Fun.


In general, I've found scows to be among the worst behaved high
performance sailboats... but then I wasn't brought up on them. I know a
lot of people who handle them with great ease & finesse, and are not in
the least troubled by their quirks.

I've never been a great fan of scows, despite racing both MCs and Es. I've
always tended to go where the large, competitive fleets are. And in the
Midwest that's often scows.

I remember crewing in the 470 for one fellow who was a star scow sailor,
who would almost continually grumble "Dammit, this boat boat is hard to
steer" by which he really meant that it was all too easy to steer, he
was zig-zagging so hard I could barely keep my feet on the boat. He also
'way overreacted to upcoming waves. After most of a day, he got more in
the groove... I wondered how he felt about the scows after that
experience...

Some scows, such as the M-16, have ridiculously small twin rudders, while
others have larger central rudders and respond better. I would imagine
moving from such a boat to a 470 or 505 with their reponsive helms would be
akin to moving from a Ford one-ton to a Mini Cooper.

.... I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.


I've been thinking about getting an MC to race but am less enthusiastic
about driving long distances to regattas than I used to be.

During our Snipe days we thought nothing of driving all weekend for a
five-race regatta. Today, however, I'd have to agree with you. If my local
YC fleet doesn't race it, I'm probably not interested. We have a Lightning
fleet nearby and have considered their Wednesday evening series, but that's
about as close to one-design racing as we've gotten in years.

Max

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

Maxprop wrote:
I think we cheated a lot. :-) Ooching and such were typical in Thistle
fleets. But your point is well taken--Thistles are slippery.

Yes they are. A certain amount of rocking, pumping, and ooching is
legal. Common practice in most fleets, shucks even the better PHRF
racers are doing it nowadays.... but so far I haven't seen any boat do
it as fast as a Thistle.




I used to race my MC in 20kts. or better, but always with an agile monster
crewman up front. Of course we sat back on the transom in such winds, and
planed like scalded cats. Fun.

I bet so. I am tempted to look for an MC, but you say they are not
comfortable? How so? I'm also tempted to get a Megabyte but don't think
there is as much of a fleet.


I've never been a great fan of scows, despite racing both MCs and Es. I've
always tended to go where the large, competitive fleets are. And in the
Midwest that's often scows.

Yep. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a E on most midwest lakes ;)


During our Snipe days we thought nothing of driving all weekend for a
five-race regatta. Today, however, I'd have to agree with you.

It's partly that traffic has gotten so much worse, and partly that the
good old days of camping & partying on the lawn are mostly over. Even
the avid dinghy racing clubs are getting stuffy these days, it seems.



.... We have a Lightning
fleet nearby and have considered their Wednesday evening series, but that's
about as close to one-design racing as we've gotten in years.

Lightnings are fun boats, a bit of a crew-punisher but nothing near as
bad as a Thistle or a J-22. We've had some great times in ours.... my
wife felt that the Lightning fleets we ran around in were not friendly.
But they're nowhere near as bad as some of the arrogant butt-heads I
used to cross tacks with in 470s.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

They have rules about that Doug. Rule 42.2 to be
exact. I'm amazed at what some sailors think they
can get away with. Laser sailors have to be the
worst.
S.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
: I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the
time I've watched
: Thistles chugging around the race course when
it was glassy calm.
:
: Maxprop wrote:
: I think we cheated a lot. :-) Ooching and
such were typical in Thistle
: fleets. But your point is well
taken--Thistles are slippery.
:
: Yes they are. A certain amount of rocking,
pumping, and ooching is
: legal. Common practice in most fleets, shucks
even the better PHRF
: racers are doing it nowadays.... but so far I
haven't seen any boat do
: it as fast as a Thistle.
:
:
:
:
: I used to race my MC in 20kts. or better, but
always with an agile monster
: crewman up front. Of course we sat back on
the transom in such winds, and
: planed like scalded cats. Fun.
:
: I bet so. I am tempted to look for an MC, but
you say they are not
: comfortable? How so? I'm also tempted to get a
Megabyte but don't think
: there is as much of a fleet.
:
:
: I've never been a great fan of scows, despite
racing both MCs and Es. I've
: always tended to go where the large,
competitive fleets are. And in the
: Midwest that's often scows.
:
: Yep. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a E
on most midwest lakes ;)
:
:
: During our Snipe days we thought nothing of
driving all weekend for a
: five-race regatta. Today, however, I'd have
to agree with you.
:
: It's partly that traffic has gotten so much
worse, and partly that the
: good old days of camping & partying on the lawn
are mostly over. Even
: the avid dinghy racing clubs are getting stuffy
these days, it seems.
:
:
:
: .... We have a Lightning
: fleet nearby and have considered their
Wednesday evening series, but that's
: about as close to one-design racing as we've g
otten in years.
:
: Lightnings are fun boats, a bit of a
crew-punisher but nothing near as
: bad as a Thistle or a J-22. We've had some great
times in ours.... my
: wife felt that the Lightning fleets we ran
around in were not friendly.
: But they're nowhere near as bad as some of the
arrogant butt-heads I
: used to cross tacks with in 470s.
:
: Fresh Breezes- Doug King
:

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Yes they are. A certain amount of rocking, pumping, and ooching is
legal. Common practice in most fleets, shucks even the better PHRF
racers are doing it nowadays.... but so far I haven't seen any boat do
it as fast as a Thistle.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

According to the latest copy I have of "The Rules of Racing", none of the
actions you describe are legal, in any amount.I would hate to think that the
folks we race against in PHRF cheat, though I'm sure it does happen, God
help you if you get caught.
John Cairns

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

"DSK" wrote in message

I bet so. I am tempted to look for an MC, but you say they are not
comfortable? How so?

No more uncomfortable than any other scow. But a scow is a scow. You sit
barely above the water line with your knees in your face (the cockpit sole
is only about a foot below the gunnels), and the only time one is really
comfortable is when heeled well to leeward and sitting high on the weather
deck. When sitting low on the leeward deck to reduce wetted surface area by
raising the weather part of the hull out of the water, one feels like he's
about to get wet. And of course the bilge boards, when up, protrude into
the crew's seating area. One is almost tempted to sail solo rather than
listen to the crew bitch about this.


It's partly that traffic has gotten so much worse, and partly that the
good old days of camping & partying on the lawn are mostly over. Even
the avid dinghy racing clubs are getting stuffy these days, it seems.

We've found this to be the case as well. One particularly pretentious club
in Michigan, threw some of us out of their dining room one evening during a
Snipe regatta because we weren't dressed in our blue serge blazers and
Breton Red slacks. It would appear that some of these purported *yacht
clubs* take that moniker far too seriously. Most are just sailing clubs,
but don't realize it.

Lightnings are fun boats, a bit of a crew-punisher but nothing near as
bad as a Thistle or a J-22. We've had some great times in ours.... my
wife felt that the Lightning fleets we ran around in were not friendly.
But they're nowhere near as bad as some of the arrogant butt-heads I
used to cross tacks with in 470s.

One phenomenon we're seeing more now than ever before is a tendency of clubs
to eschew off lake sailors. For some arcane reason their memberships have
concluded that if one doesn't own lakefront property he is unfit to sail
with the YC. Of course this typically eliminates some of the best sailors
from those clubs, and the members simply can't understand why their seasonal
club champions can't compete worth **** at regional and national regattas.
Our local Lightning fleet isn't opposed to off-lakers, but does have it's
communal nose a bit too high in the air for our tastes. We'd love to sail
with them and clobber their big dogs, but probably won't be willing to put
up with the arrogance.

Max

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

"John Cairns" wrote in message

According to the latest copy I have of "The Rules of Racing", none of the
actions you describe are legal, in any amount.

Those same actions are usually specifically banned in the class racing rules
of most one-design classes as well. We got caught ooching in a total
drifter in which we knew we'd not make the 90 minute limit, so we took the
chance. Our DSQ was ultimately eliminated because the race was called on
time.

Max

was Int'l 470 ballast ?... Thistles
 

.....A certain amount of rocking, pumping, and ooching is
legal. Common practice in most fleets....


John Cairns wrote:
According to the latest copy I have of "The Rules of Racing", none of the
actions you describe are legal, in any amount.I would hate to think that the
folks we race against in PHRF cheat, though I'm sure it does happen, God
help you if you get caught.

Why? In my experience, protest committees are getting increasingly lax
about enforcing the rules.

However, take a look at it in black & white
http://www.sailing.org/rrs2001/42Int..._2003Final.pdf

Scroll down to the interpretations- this is the real working part of the
rule. Note the you are still allowed to roll tack. You are still allowed
to scull, as long as you are "steering" when you do so. You are still
allowed to combine any roll with a pump. The rule hasn't changed much
since the old Rule 54 (which had a great video) but the wording has
gotten a lot more vague (and at the same time, for some reason, they
seem to have tried to make it sound more intimidating).

Skill at kinetic propulsion is a key in light air... if you have less
skill at it than your competitors, then your options are 1- lose graciously
2- kick up a fuss
3- go out and practice how to make the boat move on days when there is
NO wind at all...

I took option #3 (although I'm a bit out of practice nowadays) and when
a competitor was using what I felt was illegal propulsion, I'd do it
too... and pass them. That did more to keep the fleet honest than any
amount of protesting. It's a test of character, really. But it also is
healthy exercise and makes those drifters a bit less agonizing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King