Well, we can see that you're quite a sailor. I'm sure you can find
a couple of other excuses for not sailing.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Jeff, I've been watching the Democratic convention this week so I
haven't had much time to check in to the ng very often. Glancing over
your notes, I see that your comments are as vacuous as always, however.

Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

Here's what someone who claims to be an attorney said about the
Macgregor
warnings:

"Jeff, have you had many dealings with corporate attorneys? Or tort
lawyers?

If

you had, you would recognize that these warnings, if taken literally,
are
something like the warnings posted in our health center warning us to
be

sure to

wear our seat belt when using the Nautilus weight training equipment.
Or,

like

the long list of warnings you get when you purchase any electrical

appliance,

audio equipment, etc. "

Are you claiming that lawyer was full of ****?

Nope. I take the warnings quite seriously. However, I also recognize
that one of the purposes of the warnings is to minimize the possibility
of tort actions against Mac.


You're being disengenuous, Jim. You were being quite clear the the
warnings
were something that could be ignored. Now you're admitted they are
deadly
serious. This is a huge backpedal Jim. You're admitting you were full
of ****
from the beginning! This is a Slam Dunk, you just Screwed the Pooch,
your
client was sent to the chair!

You're going to squirm, claiming you never said to ignore the warnings.
SO are
you saying you always wear a seatbelt on the Nautilus? You're just
another
sorry lawyer, and we all know what that means.

Really, Jeff? And WHICH PART OF THE WARNING should I pay the closest
attention to? The part that tells me never to sail or motor the boat
without the water ballast? Or the part that refers me to the
instructions on how to sail and motor the boat without the water ballast?








Actually, while I think the skipper should go to jail for Boating While
Intoxicated, the family of the children might have a rather good case.
The

boat

was not going fast, the conditions were calm, and while the boat might
have

been

overloaded according to the warnings, most people probably wouldn't
think 8
adults on deck is too much for a 26 foot sailboat. I'll bet hundreds
of

people

saw them that night and probably no one commented that it looks
dangerously
overloaded. OTOH, I've frequently seen smaller boats that appeared

overloaded,

but I've almost never seem them spontaneously rollover.

While acknowledging that I havent' read the transcript and wasn't there
at the trial, that's not the story I see quoted from various news
articles. For example:

Published April 30, 2004

MIDDLEBURY -- Four law-enforcement officers testified Thursday that the
skipper of a boat that capsized on Lake Champlain, killing two Charlotte
children, was extraordinarily drunk the night of the accident.

The testimony from three police officers and one U.S. Coast Guard
official came on the second day of George Dean Martin's trial in Vermont
District Court in Middlebury.

Martin, 48, of Charlotte has pleaded not guilty to two counts of boating
while intoxicated with death resulting in the July 4, 2002, drownings of
Trevor Mack, 4, and his sister Melissa Mack, 9. Each count carries up to
five years in prison and a $2,000 fine.

Addison County prosecutors contend Martin was so drunk that he operated
the boat improperly by MAKING A SHARP LEFT TURN AND GUNNINIG THE
ENGINE,WHICH CAUSED THE VESSEL TO CAPSIZE. Defense attorneys argue that
the boat -- a combination motorboat and sailboat called a MacGregor 26
-- was inherently unsafe and prone to tip with more than four people
aboard.

Martin and 10 PASSENGERS were on the vessel that night. They set out
toward Diamond Island to watch Independence Day fireworks. The boat
flipped as Martin began steering the MacGregor back toward shore.

Mike Fish, a Colchester police detective who responded to the scene and
interviewed Martin on land shortly after the accident, said Martin was
"substantially intoxicated."

"He was swaying back and forth like a breeze blowing a small sapling,"
Fish testified.



Yes, I only saw an initial report which made it sound like he was still
at
anchor. He had actually left the raft up and made the mistake of
turning too
quickly. I said there were 8 adults on deck and three small children
below,
that's what the report says. While the children count as "passengers"
their
total weight was probably about 100 pounds, and being near the waterline
shouldn't contribute much to the unbalance.

Bottom line Jim - how many 26 foot sailboats roll over because there are
8
adults on deck? Only one that I know of. And its the one that you keep
claiming is very stable. And sadly, 2 children were trapped below,
even
though there were numerous people there trying to rescue them, even
though the
boat had a double hull and foam flotation.


I'm gratified to see that you will at least admit you were wrong on some
occasions, Jeff. Yes, the skipper was apparently gunning the motor
trying to make a turn or get back to port.

Jeff, if you have sailed on a Mac 26, it will be apparent that the deck
is very small, certainly far too small for a crowd of eight adults. (And
since the skipper was drunk, I assume that some of the passengers would
have been drinking also.) It should have been obvious to any responsible
skipper that this was an a clearly unsafe condition, particularly since
the boat wasn't sitting at anchor but being turned around under power to
get back. Although we don't know the exact facts of the accident, ANY
small boat can be capsized with that much load under at least SOME
conditions, e.g., if most of the weight is on one side during a turn, or
if they are holding onto the mast pulling it over, etc. (Jeff, if the
Macs have a fundamentally unsafe design, where are the hundreds of
reports of capsizes and drownings that would be expected with all the
other 30,000 boats? With that many boats, if the boat was inherently
unsafe, and with that many boats out there, we would see hundreds of
such reports every year.)

Face it, Jeff, the facts are that the skipper was drunk, gunning the
engine, making a turn with an overloaded boat, and totally disregarding
the most basic safety principles. Regarding the boat itself, I note
that the flotation system apparently kept the boat afloat even in such
severe and overloaded conditions. Had it not been for the particular
design of the Mac26X with it's flotation backup and lack of a weighted
keel, the boat would have probably sunk, drowning the skipper and the
eight adults sitting on the deck. - Think of the headlines, Jeff,
"sailboat capsizes and is dragged to the bottom by its heavy keel
(negligent design?) drowning all eight passengers."

I suppose that in one respect the story is a further affirmation of the
potential value of the improvements made in the new 26M, which
incorporates an additional 300 pounds of permanent ballast in its hull
and additional flotation in the upper mast, making it an even safer boat
than the 26X.

Jim