Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

There is a picture in Sailing World this month in
ASK DR. CRASH. However, instead of providing
usefull suggestions on what to do in this situation,
they make a joke about a potentially fatal situation!
Shame on you Dr Crash!

The picture is located in the last page of this months
issue titled "Drop the Chute".

***************************************
General Description:
During a race, a bowman on an Etchells named LION'S
PAW of the Annapolis Yahct Club was on the foredeck,
jibing a spinnaker and fell off the boat, with his leg caught
between the two starboard shrouds.

Injured Crew Condition:
He had no life jacket on, his sun glasses were still
on and most of his body above water, facing aft as
he was being dragged along. The boat is heeled far
enough to keep most of the man['s body out of the
water and expose the starboard boot stripe. The
bowmans left arm and left leg are in the water. His
body and head were even with the boot stripe, and
could easily be under water of the boat was not heeled.
His head would definately be below water if the boat
was heeled the other direction. His foot is securely
trapped between the two shrouds; he is consious
but unable to help himself. The force of the water has
pushed him as far aft as his leg will allow.

Wind Conditions
There are whitecaps, and the wind looks like 12-13
knots. The boat is sailing a deep broad reach, on port
tack, but heeled like it was on a starboard tack. The
other boats all appear to be in a stable angle of heel
and headed closer to a run. There is not sign of rolling
on the other boats as you would find in heavier winds.

Boat Condition:
The spinnaker pole is attached only at the clue on
the port side, and is free at the mast. The starboard
twing is in tight, the port twing is eased. The jib is down
on the foredeck. The main is all the way out on the
starboard side. Unlike most other boats, the Etchells
boom vang's typically could not be easily removed.

Other factors:
The middle crew is a woman, probably not strong
enough to pull the bowman back aboard. A strong
man might not be able to haul this soaking wet man
back aboard against the force of the water. The boat
appears to be in the middle of the fleet.

Assumptions:
1. Assume there are one or two other boats
upwind of LION'S PAW, and all are headed
downwind with their kites up.
2. The committee boat is over a mile away.
3. You do not have a radio on board.
4. The bow man cannot be pulled aft without
breaking his leg or dislocating his knee.
5. Assume the boat is on a dead downwind run.
6. You have typical safety gear on board and handy.
*****************************************
Question 1: What should the skipper do? [2 points]

Question 2: What should the middle person do? [2 points]

Question 3: As a skipper what would you change in
future races to mitigate a problem like this? [1 point]

Question 4: In heavier winds with rolling condtions, would
you do anything differently? [1 point]

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

"Bart Senior" wrote
Question 1: What should the skipper do? [2 points]

Shoot the bowman?

Question 2: What should the middle person do? [2 points]

Kick the corpse free so it doesn't drag on the next turn?

Question 3: As a skipper what would you change in
future races to mitigate a problem like this? [1 point]

Buy more insurance on his crew?

Question 4: In heavier winds with rolling condtions, would
you do anything differently? [1 point]

Steady my gun on the dodger?

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Bart Senior wrote:
There is a picture in Sailing World this month in
ASK DR. CRASH. However, instead of providing
usefull suggestions on what to do in this situation,
they make a joke about a potentially fatal situation!
Shame on you Dr Crash!

The picture is located in the last page of this months
issue titled "Drop the Chute".

Yes, saw that. It was an interesting story.

We've had crew come off the foredeck under somewhat similar
circumstances. Getting the leg caught in the shrouds is a complication.


Assumptions:
1. Assume there are one or two other boats
upwind of LION'S PAW, and all are headed
downwind with their kites up.
2. The committee boat is over a mile away.
3. You do not have a radio on board.
4. The bow man cannot be pulled aft without
breaking his leg or dislocating his knee.
5. Assume the boat is on a dead downwind run.
6. You have typical safety gear on board and handy.
*****************************************
Question 1: What should the skipper do? [2 points]

Soundly curse the crewman, along with his ancestors and his descendants,
for at least 7 generations.

Where is the spinnaker halyard cleat? Can the skipper reach it? Dropping
the chute would slow the boat down... indeed, could well bring it to a
complete stop ;)


Question 2: What should the middle person do? [2 points]

Either drop the chute & gather it quickly OR let the old sheet run out
to take pressure off. If the twing is tight, the sail shouldn't sky...
this might not work too well and may lead to worse problems.


Question 3: As a skipper what would you change in
future races to mitigate a problem like this? [1 point]

Put a toerail on the boat, at least along that short section where Mr
Fumble Foot stands when gybing.


Question 4: In heavier winds with rolling condtions, would
you do anything differently? [1 point]

The ultimate answer is to do an immediate North River Gybe (warning the
remaining crew of course). This will do several things... it will swing
the boat around the crewman in the water, reducing the rate at which
he's getting dragged... it will bring him to the high side, reducing the
depth to which he is immersed... it will slow & stop the boat... it will
free up the middle crew from everything else, once he's ducked &
covered, so he can fully assist the crew in water... in fact the boat
could end up hove-to so the skipper can help too.

Somehow gybing a spinnaker seems to bring out either the best or the
worst in people. I've had otherwise calm & skillful crew start shouting
nonsense and flailing, and my wife who is usually rather intense becomes
jovial & devil-may-care. I've fallen down or been flung around when
gybing, never overboard though. I've had crew go overboard once gybing
in a race, the biggest problem at the time was that it was right at the
gybe mark and there was a lot of traffic bearing down on her. They told
me later that the Race Committee (approx 2 miles away) and people on
shore (2 1/2 miles away) heard me warning the oncoming boats....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Question 1: What should the skipper do? [2 points]

He should have the rest of the crew position themselves , with safety
harness and lines in hand, and a flotation cushion tied to a line. They
should gently depower the boat so that it starts to set down while the
middle person leans over (the guys hands are free, are they not?) with the
harness...at that point it doesn't matter what part of himself he gets into
it, just so there's something to hold on to....he can use the flotation
cushion as ballast....you need to depower so the drag on his body isn't so
much that you can't free up his leg...at this point, winning the race is a
moot point...there's no way anyone's going to free that man up with the boat
going lickety split down the lake...

Question 2: What should the middle person do? [2 points]

Pass the gear down and make sure the spin pole don't clobber anyone when the
boat is taken off the wind....and to heck with the spinnaker..if it rips, it
rips...you've got a man possibly dying down there...

Question 3: As a skipper what would you change in
future races to mitigate a problem like this? [1 point]

I'd tell my crew to not use shroud's as anchors for their feet....it's about
as bad as people who stuff their feet under cabintop railings....

Question 4: In heavier winds with rolling conditions, would
you do anything differently? [1 point] Yeah, you could start to do death
rolls and bury the bow....maybe the bow wake would wash him back up on deck
( facetious answer)




--
katysails
s/vs. Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

UI don't understand the sunglasses reference. Is he trying to stay cool?
Hahahahhahahahaah. Let the spin go completely with with his life jacket
tied to it. Turn up wind and grab him.
Simple.

Cheers

Bart Senior wrote:

There is a picture in Sailing World this month in
ASK DR. CRASH. However, instead of providing
usefull suggestions on what to do in this situation,
they make a joke about a potentially fatal situation!
Shame on you Dr Crash!

The picture is located in the last page of this months
issue titled "Drop the Chute".

***************************************
General Description:
During a race, a bowman on an Etchells named LION'S
PAW of the Annapolis Yahct Club was on the foredeck,
jibing a spinnaker and fell off the boat, with his leg caught
between the two starboard shrouds.

Injured Crew Condition:
He had no life jacket on, his sun glasses were still
on and most of his body above water, facing aft as
he was being dragged along. The boat is heeled far
enough to keep most of the man['s body out of the
water and expose the starboard boot stripe. The
bowmans left arm and left leg are in the water. His
body and head were even with the boot stripe, and
could easily be under water of the boat was not heeled.
His head would definately be below water if the boat
was heeled the other direction. His foot is securely
trapped between the two shrouds; he is consious
but unable to help himself. The force of the water has
pushed him as far aft as his leg will allow.

Wind Conditions
There are whitecaps, and the wind looks like 12-13
knots. The boat is sailing a deep broad reach, on port
tack, but heeled like it was on a starboard tack. The
other boats all appear to be in a stable angle of heel
and headed closer to a run. There is not sign of rolling
on the other boats as you would find in heavier winds.

Boat Condition:
The spinnaker pole is attached only at the clue on
the port side, and is free at the mast. The starboard
twing is in tight, the port twing is eased. The jib is down
on the foredeck. The main is all the way out on the
starboard side. Unlike most other boats, the Etchells
boom vang's typically could not be easily removed.

Other factors:
The middle crew is a woman, probably not strong
enough to pull the bowman back aboard. A strong
man might not be able to haul this soaking wet man
back aboard against the force of the water. The boat
appears to be in the middle of the fleet.

Assumptions:
1. Assume there are one or two other boats
upwind of LION'S PAW, and all are headed
downwind with their kites up.
2. The committee boat is over a mile away.
3. You do not have a radio on board.
4. The bow man cannot be pulled aft without
breaking his leg or dislocating his knee.
5. Assume the boat is on a dead downwind run.
6. You have typical safety gear on board and handy.
*****************************************
Question 1: What should the skipper do? [2 points]

Question 2: What should the middle person do? [2 points]

Question 3: As a skipper what would you change in
future races to mitigate a problem like this? [1 point]

Question 4: In heavier winds with rolling condtions, would
you do anything differently? [1 point]

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

DSK wrote

Where is the spinnaker halyard cleat? Can the skipper reach it? Dropping
the chute would slow the boat down... indeed, could well bring it to a
complete stop ;)

How would you do that? Dropping it in the water will
stop the boat quickly and perhaps put the mans head
underwater.

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Bart Senior wrote:
How would you do that? Dropping it in the water will
stop the boat quickly and perhaps put the mans head
underwater.

?? I don't see how dropping the spinnaker, even if it goes trawling,
will put the crew overboard's head underwater if it wasn't already
underwater. Because the spinnaker is heeling the boat? But remember, the
guy was on the lee (mainsail) side so if that's true then it's an
unstable situation anyway; the boat would basically be in the first
stages of death-rolling.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Bart Senior wrote:

DSK wrote


Where is the spinnaker halyard cleat? Can the skipper reach it? Dropping
the chute would slow the boat down... indeed, could well bring it to a
complete stop ;)


How would you do that? Dropping it in the water will
stop the boat quickly and perhaps put the mans head
underwater.


He's got hand hasn't he?

Cheers

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

DSK wrote:

Bart Senior wrote:

How would you do that? Dropping it in the water will
stop the boat quickly and perhaps put the mans head
underwater.


?? I don't see how dropping the spinnaker, even if it goes trawling,
will put the crew overboard's head underwater if it wasn't already
underwater. Because the spinnaker is heeling the boat? But remember, the
guy was on the lee (mainsail) side so if that's true then it's an
unstable situation anyway; the boat would basically be in the first
stages of death-rolling.


In this case it would not matter as letting the spinny go frees upo the
crew to help the man. He just needs one hand to keep his head above
water! I agree with you Doug.

Cheers

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Nav wrote:
.... I agree with you Doug.

Well golly, that's made my week... wait'll I tell my Mom...

DSK

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

.... I agree with you Doug.


Well golly, that's made my week... wait'll I tell my Mom...


Well it's a serious question and I agree with you. Are you surprised you
knew/guessed the best (IMHO) answer?

:P

Cheers

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Nav wrote:
Well it's a serious question and I agree with you. Are you surprised you
knew/guessed the best (IMHO) answer?

I neither "knew" nor guessed, just described what I would (probably) do.
Since I have been in a similar situation, that affects my judgement.

I am surprised that you agree, I am not surprised that you think in
terms of "right" and "best" answers as though sailing was some sort of
academic exercise where theory & book-learning counts for more than
actual ability.

DSK

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

Well it's a serious question and I agree with you. Are you surprised
you knew/guessed the best (IMHO) answer?


I neither "knew" nor guessed, just described what I would (probably) do.
Since I have been in a similar situation, that affects my judgement.

I am surprised that you agree, I am not surprised that you think in
terms of "right" and "best" answers as though sailing was some sort of
academic exercise where theory & book-learning counts for more than
actual ability.


So you don't think it's the "best (IMHO)" answer? What is a better
answer? Please don't tell us you are muddled and unable to judge merit
among choices! This would never do for a skipper. As for my thinking
about sailing as an academic exercise your are quite wrong.
Nevertheless, your dislike of education shows. Frankly many things can
be better learnt from others and "book-learning" is an important
tool/medium for achieving this -ask any qualified ships master.
Knowledge forearms all and even those who only seem learn from practical
repitition, would be better off for some "book-learning" -IMHO of course.

Cheers

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Nav wrote:
So you don't think it's the "best (IMHO)" answer?

I neither know nor care what the "best" answer is, in your humble
opinion. It's a stupid way to think about sailing. There is no right
answer, there is no best answer... only things that work and things that
fail. Some methods & tactics work well, some do not... but no single
action will always be "right" or "best" irregardless of conditions.



Nevertheless, your dislike of education shows.

I don't dislike education, what I dislike is your pedantic sneering.

... Frankly many things can
be better learnt from others

Like manners?

... and "book-learning" is an important
tool/medium for achieving this -ask any qualified ships master.

Agreed.

DSK

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Here are my ideas.

First off, I like Ozzie's idea of handing the man the jib sheet. I'd
also talk to him about what I planned to do so he can hold his
breath.

Someone should hand him the boats throwable floatation right away.
If he manages to free himself from the boat he'll need that.

Firing a flare right away might be a good idea. Usually
in a race problems on other boats downwind are spotted quickly,
but others might react more quickly if there was a sense of
urgency provoked by a flare. A handheld VHF call for help
would be wise also, in case the problem takes a long time to
resolve. I would not waste time talking, I'd possibly give one
quick report and focus on the task at hand, and not count on
any help.

I'd worriy about the spinnaker pole flailing around the foredeck.
This would not be a good time to lose a second crew overboard
with a head injury and have to chose which one to save first, and
possibly which one to die. I've been hit in the head by a spinnaker
pole and people have died from injuries like that.

In the described conditions, I'd start by dumping the pole lift, and
sheet in the foreguy to drop the spinnaker pole. I'd ease the
spinnaker halyard 6 feet. and let the spinnaker sheet run. That
would leave the spinnaker streaming out downwind, and out of the
water, and in a good position to recover it later. It might turn
out that the spinnaker pole could be used helm keep the mans' head
out of the water also.

I do not like the idea of having the spinnaker in the water attached to
the boat. It might complicate matters in unexpected ways.

The helmsman's should yell "gybing", and sheet in the main halfway. If the
boat was by the lee, as Doug stated, it would be in the first stages of
a death roll, and it would be a slam gybe as the boom crossed the boat
and began to round up. Sheeting the main in halfway plus the boats
momentum would help keep the boat heeled and turning upwind. If
the boat was not by the lee, gybing still makes sense.

That would put the spinnaker behind the main. And bring the
boat's head up, as it rounds up, and tend to keep the man out
of the water as the boat slows down. The helmsman should steer
up to keep the main luffing and boat stopped and possibly hove-to
with the spinnaker drag offsetting the helm.
..
The boat would be unlikely to unintentionally tack with the spinnaker
streaming off the bow and the main not fully sheeted in. An
unintentional tack is not a good idea as it might make it more difficult
for the man to keep his head out of the water.

At this point the middle woman could reach down from the cockpit
and help the bowman keep his head up out of the water if he was
having trouble getting air. Perhaps he could put his other foot
against the hull and kick himself free at this point. If not the helmsman
could take over the job of helping him stay above water, steering with
the hiking stick or his foot and keeping the boat stopped.

The middle woman could try to free his foot, untie his shoe or whatever.
If the boat were stopped it will be easier to get the foot out.

If the foot is still stuck, depending on the urgency, the woman could free
the jib halyard, tie a big loop with a bowline to support his weight, or tie
it around his foot to brute force the foot free. If I were in the water
having
trouble keeping my head out of the water, I'd gladly accept some cuts,
bruises, or even a broken leg over drowning.

If his foot is really jammed in there the only way to get him out mayl
be to pull him forward.

In heavier wind conditions I'd let spinnaker halyard, sheet and
guy all go. I think the spinnaker would float long enough to
recover later.


Nav wrote

Bart Senior wrote:

DSK wrote


Where is the spinnaker halyard cleat? Can the skipper reach it? Dropping
the chute would slow the boat down... indeed, could well bring it to a
complete stop ;)


How would you do that? Dropping it in the water will
stop the boat quickly and perhaps put the mans head
underwater.

He's got hand hasn't he?

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

So you don't think it's the "best (IMHO)" answer?


I neither know nor care what the "best" answer is, in your humble
opinion. It's a stupid way to think about sailing. There is no right
answer, there is no best answer... only things that work and things that
fail. Some methods & tactics work well, some do not... but no single
action will always be "right" or "best" irregardless of conditions.


For a limited range of outcomes optimization of outcome is always best.
You should know this -it's a fundamental tenet of good engineering
practice isn't it?


Nevertheless, your dislike of education shows.

I don't dislike education, what I dislike is your pedantic sneering.


But sneering is only possible when there is an object of contempt.

... Frankly many things can be better learnt from others

Like manners?


Yes, indeed.

Cheers

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Bart Senior wrote:

Here are my ideas.

First off, I like Ozzie's idea of handing the man the jib sheet. I'd
also talk to him about what I planned to do so he can hold his
breath.

Someone should hand him the boats throwable floatation right away.
If he manages to free himself from the boat he'll need that.

Firing a flare right away might be a good idea. Usually
in a race problems on other boats downwind are spotted quickly,
but others might react more quickly if there was a sense of
urgency provoked by a flare. A handheld VHF call for help
would be wise also, in case the problem takes a long time to
resolve. I would not waste time talking, I'd possibly give one
quick report and focus on the task at hand, and not count on
any help.


I'm sorry I don't see the situation you describe as life threatening.
Flares and radio calls are not called for at that point -it's not that
serious. You have one man uninjured, not overboard, not unconscious and
two able bodied crew to get him back on board. He can certainly hold on
to a rope to keep his head above water. You just have to get the boat
quickly to a state where she will look after herself and pull him back
on board.

Cheers

Accident Emergency Question [Three part ]
 

Nav wrote:
For a limited range of outcomes optimization of outcome is always best.

In theory, yes.

In practice, when the stuff hits the fan, there is no time to draw up a
flow chart and calculate a risk/benefit chart.

You should know this -it's a fundamental tenet of good engineering
practice isn't it?

I also know a lot of very smart engineers who make poor sailors. They
tend to over-analiyze everything and either take no action or try to
change their action in mid-course. Doctors are worse. The way to skipper
a boat is to be able quickly conceive a plan and follow it through,
whether it is "best" or not.

In theory, there's no difference between practice and theory.
In practice, there is.

DSK