Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Pony Express wrote:
Just how big are you? We have had some pretty big
people in them, both for racing and learn to sail.
What don't you like about the acp? It's perfect
for club boats. No spider webbing or cracking
when boats bump and it stands up to hauling over a
beach far better than glass.

Agreed. The thing I don't like about the ACP boats is that they are
slippery. Stick-on non-skid improves things somewhat, but molded in
non-skid all over is better.


The thing I don't understand is why our
highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth is
that the JY is faster than either of them.

The JY is MUCH faster. Take a couple of JY-15s to a college sailing club
and jump into a few of their practices... or take them to a real regatta
against either FJs or 420s. The JY will literally sail rings around
them. In regattas I've been at, the slowest JY lapped the fastest 420.

The real reason why the kids want 420s or FJs is because that's what all
the college clubs have. Conformists!

15 years ago, when the JY was a new boat, I tried to break this cycle.
As a result, NC State has a fleet of JY-15s which we hosted regattas
with for a few year... all the racers loved them, the coaches all griped
about "strange boats" and most of them have bought at least two
replacement fleets of club 420s and/or FJs... and NC State still has
it's fleet of original JY-15s.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

You're preaching to the choir, Doug.
S


"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
:
: Pony Express wrote:
: Just how big are you? We have had some pretty
big
: people in them, both for racing and learn to
sail.
: What don't you like about the acp? It's
perfect
: for club boats. No spider webbing or cracking
: when boats bump and it stands up to hauling
over a
: beach far better than glass.
:
: Agreed. The thing I don't like about the ACP
boats is that they are
: slippery. Stick-on non-skid improves things
somewhat, but molded in
: non-skid all over is better.
:
:
: The thing I don't understand is why our
: highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
: 420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth
is
: that the JY is faster than either of them.
:
: The JY is MUCH faster. Take a couple of JY-15s
to a college sailing club
: and jump into a few of their practices... or
take them to a real regatta
: against either FJs or 420s. The JY will
literally sail rings around
: them. In regattas I've been at, the slowest JY
lapped the fastest 420.
:
: The real reason why the kids want 420s or FJs is
because that's what all
: the college clubs have. Conformists!
:
: 15 years ago, when the JY was a new boat, I
tried to break this cycle.
: As a result, NC State has a fleet of JY-15s
which we hosted regattas
: with for a few year... all the racers loved
them, the coaches all griped
: about "strange boats" and most of them have
bought at least two
: replacement fleets of club 420s and/or FJs...
and NC State still has
: it's fleet of original JY-15s.
:
: Fresh Breezes- Doug King
:

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Pony Express wrote:


The thing I don't understand is why our
highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth is
that the JY is faster than either of them.

The 420 and the FJ are standard collegiate racing boats. The JY is
not. I think that's part of the prejudice, even though as you correctly
state the JY is signifignantly faster than the 420 or the 14-foot sleep
aid known as the Flying Junior.

So, why isn't the JY a college racing boat? Part of it's tradition,
surely, but there's another piece of the puzzle that I just found out a
couple of weeks ago. A lot of college racing is team racing where boat
handling and tactics is more important than boat speed. The problem
with the JY is that it's hard to stop it cold in it's tracks. Now, you
might not think "stopping the boat" is all that important in racing, but
it is at the collegiate level.



--
//-Walt
//
//

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Pony Express wrote:
The thing I don't understand is why our
highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth is
that the JY is faster than either of them.



Walt wrote:
The 420 and the FJ are standard collegiate racing boats. The JY is
not. I think that's part of the prejudice, even though as you correctly
state the JY is signifignantly faster than the 420 or the 14-foot sleep
aid known as the Flying Junior.

C'mon, I used to race FJs... the boat was designed as the "Flying
*Dutchman* Junior" and decided to drop the D-word. Back in it's day it
was a relatively fast boat. And to my eye, it's a better looking boat
than the 420 (which looks as though it should have ball claw feet on
each corner).



So, why isn't the JY a college racing boat? Part of it's tradition,
surely, but there's another piece of the puzzle that I just found out a
couple of weeks ago. A lot of college racing is team racing where boat
handling and tactics is more important than boat speed. The problem
with the JY is that it's hard to stop it cold in it's tracks. Now, you
might not think "stopping the boat" is all that important in racing, but
it is at the collegiate level.

I like it. We need a new ad campaign: "Sail the Club 420 and FJ...
they're easy to stop!"

It's a trivial point. If both teams were sailing JYs, then it would
still be equal. Another issue, real but relatively trivial, is that the
JY is not as sensitive to dirty air as either 420 or FJ.

It's also true that college racing emphasizes tactics, but even in a
fast boat, the issue is more boat handling & avoiding tactical errors
than putting on brilliant chessmaster moves. In a faster boat on a
shorter course, the only tactics that are diminished is the importance
of wind shifts. Everything else is still in play, with the added bonus
that teams falling behand can put on a burst of speed and get back in
the hunt... there is never a parade, never a safe lead.

OTOH in slower boats that stop easily, are tricky to get to point high,
don't accelerate well, and are sensitive to dirty air, 90% of the race
is decided at the start. Well OK, 70% decided at the start and 20%
decided in practice drills the month beforehand.

The real issue is that the Johnstones failed utterly at marketing the JY
to collegiate teams. And that's a shame IMHO. The JY has much better
longevity and is far more cost effective. Furthermore the economies of
scale that would kick in if they made a couple thousand of them a year,
instead of a couple hundred, would drop the price significantly.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

I'll agree on the tradition part. Tactics can't
be used as an excuse not to use a JY, though.
And some or these generalizations about specific
boats are garbage. They say you have to foot the
JY, but we have a pincher who chronically places
at (or near) the top.
As with any one design, tactics and boat handling
are what always win.
If you just want a boat that will stop, then you
should try our Xcites. Of course, we tried to
get our high schooler to try them for training,
and they refused. It could be that when they
single hand, they have no one to blame their
mistakes on.
S

"Walt" wrote in message
...
: Pony Express wrote:
:
:
: The thing I don't understand is why our
: highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
: 420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth
is
: that the JY is faster than either of them.
:
: The 420 and the FJ are standard collegiate
racing boats. The JY is
: not. I think that's part of the prejudice, even
though as you correctly
: state the JY is signifignantly faster than the
420 or the 14-foot sleep
: aid known as the Flying Junior.
:
: So, why isn't the JY a college racing boat?
Part of it's tradition,
: surely, but there's another piece of the puzzle
that I just found out a
: couple of weeks ago. A lot of college racing is
team racing where boat
: handling and tactics is more important than boat
speed. The problem
: with the JY is that it's hard to stop it cold in
it's tracks. Now, you
: might not think "stopping the boat" is all that
important in racing, but
: it is at the collegiate level.
:
:
:
: --
: //-Walt
: //
: //

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

DSK wrote:
much snippage

I like it. We need a new ad campaign: "Sail the Club 420 and FJ...
they're easy to stop!"

It's a trivial point. If both teams were sailing JYs, then it would
still be equal.

True enough. But you could say the same about whiskey barrels fitted
out with bedsheets and bromsticks...


It's also true that college racing emphasizes tactics, but even in a
fast boat, the issue is more boat handling & avoiding tactical errors
than putting on brilliant chessmaster moves.

Ever done any team racing, Doug? It's a bizarre sport. Very different
than fleet or match racing. For instance, in 3 on 3 team racing if your
team can block two of your opponents boats with one of your boats you're
almost sure to win that heat. There's a lot of "put yourself in front
of your opponent and put on the brakes" in team racing. The ability to
start and stop the boats on a dime makes this game more fun, hence the
preference for the 420 over the JY.


The real issue is that the Johnstones failed utterly at marketing the JY
to collegiate teams. And that's a shame IMHO. The JY has much better
longevity and is far more cost effective. Furthermore the economies of
scale that would kick in if they made a couple thousand of them a year,
instead of a couple hundred, would drop the price significantly.

Well, the JY beongs to Hunter now, so we'll see what they can do with it
marketing wise. There are many things I don't like about the JY, and
many things I do. On balance I think it's a very good choice for a club
or collegiate fleet or for anybody who wants to casually race
one-design.


--
//-Walt
//
//

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Pony Express wrote:

I'll agree on the tradition part. Tactics can't
be used as an excuse not to use a JY, though.

I'm just repeating what some of the college racers have told me. With a
420 they can pull in front of an opponent and put on the brakes. That
maneuver is less effective in a JY.

And some or these generalizations about specific
boats are garbage. They say you have to foot the
JY, but we have a pincher who chronically places
at (or near) the top.
As with any one design, tactics and boat handling
are what always win.

And here I thought it was the lucky wind shift that mattered. (c:


--
//-Walt
//
//

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Everybody's a comedian.
S

"Walt" wrote in message
...
:
:
: And here I thought it was the lucky wind shift
that mattered. (c:
:
:
: --
: //-Walt
: //
: //

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

A frequently stated but nevertheless illogical point.

Cheers

DSK wrote:


Agreed. Even the high performance keel boats cannot possibly duplicate
the responsiveness of small fast racing dinghy. That's probably why all
the world's best racing skippers earned their stripes in one or another
of the fast centerboard classes before moving into the high-dollar
sailing world.

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

DSK wrote:



When has a sense of false bravado prevented anyone from listening to the
truth?



Good lord!

Cheers

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

OzOne wrote:

snip the skills and sensitivity developed in a
dinghy would be less easily learned in a yacht. IMHO


When did your opinion become humble, Oz1?

(Sgd), "Curious"
-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

OzOne wrote in message ...


That may be possible however the skills and sensitivity developed in a
dinghy would be less easily learned in a yacht. IMHO

I think that "sensitivity" hits the nail right on the head.

I did my first dinghy sailing two years ago. In two weeks I learned more
about the wind than in the previous 5 years of sailing a reasonably fast
yacht.

I became very "sensitive" to the visible signs of an approaching gust. I
also became "sensitive" to the fact that I had to bear off in sudden gusts,
instead of heading up.


Regards


Donal
--

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

OzOne wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:51:58 +0930, Flying Tadpole
scribbled thusly:



OzOne wrote:

snip the skills and sensitivity developed in a
dinghy would be less easily learned in a yacht. IMHO


When did your opinion become humble, Oz1?

Last week!

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

Ah. Registered a DNF, did we?
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

OzOne wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:42:57 +0930, Flying Tadpole
scribbled thusly:

When did your opinion become humble, Oz1?

Last week!

Ah. Registered a DNF, did we?

Bwaaaahahahahahhahaaaa!
Not far off the mark actually.
Stepped back over a decade, closer to two actually, into a class where
I'd been a guru and got my arse well and truly whipped.
I've been consoling myself with the fact that I'd been partying till
the wee small hours that morning and wasn't all that flash...the truth
just isn't bearable


Ozone, the way to do it is this:
1)appear from nowhere in an unknown boat
2)carefully select your races
3)enjoy a brief, meteoric career as a consistent winner
4)disappear from the racing while at the top, leaving no trace
other than a well-populated website
5)if you must still sail on your racing grounds, choose a vessel
so outre that no-one dares challenge you to anything.

That way, you leave behind a residue of fear and wonder, and
don't have young 45yo punks condescendingly muttering "yes, poor
old fella, I seem to remember he was pretty good once", or, "it's
sad, watching the once great scramble trying to retain their lost
youth" or worse, "y'know, those who were around then reckon he
used to be able to party all night and still take out line
honours next day"

I could give further examples if it might be useful for you?
--
Tim & Flying Tadpole
----------------------------------
The Light Schooner Website
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/index.htm
SquareBoats! http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm
Bolger Boats netted! http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sites2.htm

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Well if your winning tactics depend a skill base on the behaviour of a
dinghy they would not be much use in a big boat... The fact is that you
sail a big boat differently than a dinghy. I'd say there are far more
variables involved in racing big boats that are simply not there in
dinghies -not least more complicated crew communications, current/tide
etc and the fact that on a keel boat you don't trim in the same way
(note how Doug thinks no heel is the fastest trim).

I'd suggest the only reason this dinghy myth continues is the old "I've
spent my time cold and wet ('cos I'm poor) and so should you" ethos. I
maintain that if you taught someone to race a keeler for 5-10 years
properly and then matched them in a race with a pure dinghy sailor on a
keelboat the big boat trained will win every time. My view is supported
by the history of the squadron youth MRX training team and why they whip
everyone in the youth worlds. There arec also many round the world
sailors with relatively little dinghy racing experience. Of course in a
dinghy you can learn basics of sail trim but that is also true in big
boats...

Cheers


OzOne wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:56:52 +1200, Navigator
scribbled thusly:


A frequently stated but nevertheless illogical point.

Cheers

DSK wrote:



Agreed. Even the high performance keel boats cannot possibly duplicate
the responsiveness of small fast racing dinghy. That's probably why all
the world's best racing skippers earned their stripes in one or another
of the fast centerboard classes before moving into the high-dollar
sailing world.




Hmmm, Why illogical?
Unless you imply that if a sailor started sailing in yachts by the
time he was the same age as that at which most sailors move to "the
high-dollar sailing world" from dinghys then he would be as good as
the dinghy sailor..

That may be possible however the skills and sensitivity developed in a
dinghy would be less easily learned in a yacht. IMHO


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Perhaps you should have taken lessons?

Cheers

Donal wrote:

OzOne wrote in message ...


That may be possible however the skills and sensitivity developed in a
dinghy would be less easily learned in a yacht. IMHO


I think that "sensitivity" hits the nail right on the head.

I did my first dinghy sailing two years ago. In two weeks I learned more
about the wind than in the previous 5 years of sailing a reasonably fast
yacht.

I became very "sensitive" to the visible signs of an approaching gust. I
also became "sensitive" to the fact that I had to bear off in sudden gusts,
instead of heading up.


Regards


Donal
--

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Oz! You forget many racing yachts have adjustable feet. Even our old
Dragon had one.

Cheers

OzOne wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:34:59 +1200, Navigator
scribbled thusly:


Well if your winning tactics depend a skill base on the behaviour of a
dinghy they would not be much use in a big boat... The fact is that you
sail a big boat differently than a dinghy. I'd say there are far more
variables involved in racing big boats that are simply not there in
dinghies -not least more complicated crew communications, current/tide
etc and the fact that on a keel boat you don't trim in the same way
(note how Doug thinks no heel is the fastest trim).


You've not done much dinghy sailing MC.Top linesailors in both yachts
and dinghy use pretty much the same communication, much is understood
and reflexive. A good trimmer on a yacht will instinctively trim with
very little needing to be said, same as a dinghy.
Spinnaker sets and drops are called just the same and again trimming
is instinctive or requires only a simple command like "bearing/pulling
away" or "heading up"


I'd suggest the only reason this dinghy myth continues is the old "I've
spent my time cold and wet ('cos I'm poor) and so should you" ethos


I hadn't realised you were a snob!
And BTW there is not a huge difference between maintaining a 35' yacht
in top race trim as against an 18' skiff or similar. The purchase
price is a little less for the skiff.
I

maintain that if you taught someone to race a keeler for 5-10 years
properly and then matched them in a race with a pure dinghy sailor on a
keelboat the big boat trained will win every time


Of course, the dinghy guy would require a year or so to adapt, though
I've seen some come from extensive competitive dinghy careers and step
straight onto a yach and perform extremely well.


My view is supported
by the history of the squadron youth MRX training team and why they whip
everyone in the youth worlds.

Your view is distorted.
Those in your training scheme have been selected from the ranks of
dinghys, same as the RSYS scheme.
You don't put green sailors in Elliotts and MRX (a really nice little
boat)


There arec also many round the world
sailors with relatively little dinghy racing experience


And conversely there are many with extensive dinghy racing experience
as there are in AmCup and the rest.
Hell, I've raced against some of the top yach skippers in dinghys at
one time or another.


Of course in a
dinghy you can learn basics of sail trim but that is also true in big
boats...


Quite true, most yachts require more tuning and control that most
dinghys mainly because of size. Some dinghys will have controls never
seen on yachts, mast blocks and rams, and adjustable mast foot so the
guys who move up have to contend with that lack of control and learn
another.




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Navigator" wrote in message
...
Perhaps you should have taken lessons?


I did.

I took RYA Dinghy Sailing One. I learned a lot!


Regards


Donal
--

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

OzOne wrote in message ...

I hadn't realised you were a snob!

Rich *******s complaining about snobs! Whatever next???

This is really a great ng.

Regards



Donal
--

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Navigator" wrote in message
...

Good lord!

You sound just like Bertie, you never used that phrase until he did
repeatedly about a year ago. Even BB picked it up for a couple of months.

Cheers


Now you sound like CJS (Craig).

LP (great insights to a.s.a.)

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

OzOne wrote :

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:51:58 +0930, Flying Tadpole
scribbled thusly:

When did your opinion become humble, Oz1?

Last week!

I'm *so* proud of you!

LP (still skeptical)

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Navigator wrote:
Well if your winning tactics depend a skill base on the behaviour of a
dinghy they would not be much use in a big boat... The fact is that you
sail a big boat differently than a dinghy.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact remains that all the world's top racing
skippers are graduate of at least several small fast dinghy classes.

(note how Doug thinks no heel is the fastest trim).

Please quote the post where I said any such thing.

DSK

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

Walt wrote:
True enough. But you could say the same about whiskey barrels fitted
out with bedsheets and bromsticks...

Aw shucks, now you want to bring Flying Scots into it ;)


Ever done any team racing, Doug? It's a bizarre sport. Very different
than fleet or match racing.

Yes, it's a lot of fun and it *is* very different. It is essential to
thoroughly memorize the "winning combinations" and work together instead
of just concentrating on sailing.


... There's a lot of "put yourself in front
of your opponent and put on the brakes" in team racing. The ability to
start and stop the boats on a dime makes this game more fun, hence the
preference for the 420 over the JY.

There's also a lot of moves where you deliberately foul another boat and
then take a 720. A favorite back when I was doing it was to sail two
opposing boats the wrong side of the mark, which required a good bit of
bumping. Nowadays I think they don't allow contact between the boats
which must change the game.

Anyway, team racing is not all of collegiate racing and putting on the
brakes is not really that big a deal in team racing IMHO. The preference
for 420s and FJs (again MHO) is 1- inertia 2- a means for the big well
established programs to stay on top. Another point is that there is a
JY-15 class, while there is no FJ or 420 class activity in the US.





Well, the JY beongs to Hunter now, so we'll see what they can do with it
marketing wise. There are many things I don't like about the JY, and
many things I do. On balance I think it's a very good choice for a club
or collegiate fleet or for anybody who wants to casually race
one-design.

I doubt Hunter will do much with it, the profit margin isn't big enough.
Although it would be nice. I considered getting a JY-15 instead of the
Johnson 18 and the class seems to be doing OK.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:42:27 +0100, "Donal"
scribbled thusly:
Rich *******s complaining about snobs! Whatever next???

This is really a great ng.

Yes it is...but wealth doesn't equate with snobbery.

Correct.



Regards


Donal
--

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:Lkqhc.11185$c%3.4555@okepread02...


Now you sound like CJS (Craig).

Nobody could be *that* boring!




Regards



Donal
--

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Donal" wrote:

"Lady Pilot" wrote:


Now you sound like CJS (Craig).

Nobody could be *that* boring!

Give the poor guy a break, he joined the institution of "marriage". :-)

LP

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message

| Give the poor guy a break, he joined the institution of "marriage". :-)

One of the few institutions sanctioned to be operated by it's own
inmates...... ;-D

CM

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:j71ic.36484$fq4.14015@lakeread05...

"Donal" wrote:

"Lady Pilot" wrote:


Now you sound like CJS (Craig).

Nobody could be *that* boring!

Give the poor guy a break, he joined the institution of "marriage". :-)


Jeeezee,..... she must be really dull!!!



Regards


Donal
--

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote:

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message

| Give the poor guy a break, he joined the institution of "marriage". :-)

One of the few institutions sanctioned to be operated by it's own
inmates...... ;-D

Ah, double entendres...don't you love them?

I think you just hit a triple!

LP

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Donal" exclaimed:

"Lady Pilot" wrote :
Give the poor guy a break, he joined the institution of "marriage". :-)


Jeeezee,..... she must be really dull!!!

I couldn't comment, I've never met her.

LP (I've seen pictures in Italy...)

Any Dinghy Sailors Out There?
 

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:m4nic.12064$c%3.9635@okepread02...

"Donal" exclaimed:

"Lady Pilot" wrote :
Give the poor guy a break, he joined the institution of "marriage".
:-)


Jeeezee,..... she must be really dull!!!

I couldn't comment, I've never met her.

LP (I've seen pictures in Italy...)

Pictures????
[slavering]



Regards


Donal
--