Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

1 When to use them: In an out of harbors obvously. In narrow fairways and
rivers or canals. When the speed of sailing is not sufficient to the arrival
goal, unless you are a purist which I'm not. When caught in the doldrums.
When water is low or you have an emergency on board. Here's one trick.
Sail Motoring as opposed to Motor Sailing. When you can't go in the right
direction due to the winds running the prop at slow rpms enhances the
ability of the boat to point high by 10 to 20 additional degrees. (Variable
as to hull and conditions). If that will get you through a narrow passage
between islands so be it. When on delivery jobs with a deadline to meet.
When getting out of the way of or handling the presence of a storm
condition. When you need electricity to listen to the NBA, NFL, America's
Cup or World Cup finals.


2. When not to use the engine. Most of the time. It certainly de-tracts
from the peace of it all. When in a race that doesn't allow it, when you
are down to the last 1/3 of a tank. . . . . .and so on and so forth.

3. Add your own reasons. In the end they will always be 'your own
reasons.'

M.

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

"Michael" wrote in message
...
1 When to use them: In an out of harbors obvously.
Not necessarily. Practice makes perfect.

In narrow fairways and
rivers or canals.

Very narrow. Learn to tack.

When the speed of sailing is not sufficient to the arrival
goal, unless you are a purist which I'm not.

When caught in the doldrums.

Then, what's the rush?

2. When not to use the engine. Most of the time. It certainly de-tracts
from the peace of it all. When in a race that doesn't allow it, when you
are down to the last 1/3 of a tank. . . . . .and so on and so forth.

See above.

3. Add your own reasons. In the end they will always be 'your own
reasons.'

How about to practice not relying on it. Dock under sail. Anchor under
sail. Pick up a mooring under sail.

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Michael,
You forgot to list when you want to take a shower at sea (our water pump =
is a terrible drain for showers...)

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

1. You run a line from the hot water outlet on the engine to the shower to
the drain to the stern outlet?

2. Shower at Sea? That's what rain squalls are for.

3. Shower? What's a Shower? Next thing you know you'll be wanting a real
head!

4. I love the smell of over ripe sailors in the morning.

M.

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Michael,
You forgot to list when you want to take a shower at sea (our water pump is
a terrible drain for showers...)

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

"Michael" wrote in message ...
1 When to use them:

3. Add your own reasons. In the end they will always be 'your own
reasons.'

M.


Tieing up to a platform offshore to fish
Man overboard
7 knot current in a river
PTO for the big pump
towing
un-grounding
RIATM
watermaker
narrow jetties with big waves on the bow
going to slow to troll for King Mackerels
to slow to drag the shrimp net
in a channel full of fools
In a channel with ships that might suck you into them


When not to: When you can do everything you need to do with wind and sail alone
When you remember that you just spent close to 500 dollars fueling up.


Joe
MSV RedCloud

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Michael wrote:

1 When to use them: In an out of harbors obvously.

Not necessarily. It greatly depends on the harbor, the wind & tide, the traffic,
the boat, the skipper, etc etc.

Usually my consideration is wind & tide, and traffic. Sailing around in
unfavorable currents, light & flukey winds, and playing stoop-tag with
freighters is not good.


In narrow fairways and rivers or canals.

The C&D canal and the Cape Cod canal both forbid sailing through. I've been told
they are both equipped with spy cameras nowadays for enforcement. In times past
I have cheated and sailed through....



When the speed of sailing is not sufficient to the arrival
goal, unless you are a purist which I'm not.

Trying to cruise under sail and keep a schedule is stupid. It can be dangerous
too. Adds stress. Worse than motoring IMHO.


When caught in the doldrums.

Or trapped by bad priorities, having chosen a boat that sails like Grandpa's
barn.



When water is low or you have an emergency on board.

Agreed.

Here's one trick.
Sail Motoring as opposed to Motor Sailing. When you can't go in the right
direction due to the winds running the prop at slow rpms enhances the
ability of the boat to point high by 10 to 20 additional degrees. (Variable
as to hull and conditions). If that will get you through a narrow passage
between islands so be it.

How would you define the difference between Motor Sailing and Sail Motoring?
Just curious.


When on delivery jobs with a deadline to meet.

Agreed. But I don't do that any more (tentatively, a friend has asked me to help
with a delivery this spring)


When getting out of the way of or handling the presence of a storm
condition.

Disagree here... although there may some situations like this, such as getting
out of the danger quadrant in the calm before the storm. But most boats should
sail well enough that this is unnecessary.


When you need electricity to listen to the NBA, NFL, America's
Cup or World Cup finals.

Your battery bank is too small.



3. Add your own reasons.

You forgot running bridges. In many places it is against the rules to sail
through open bridges.

Now that we cruise in a tugboat, it's really not a question. But we can get to
anchorages quicker and set up the windsurfers or sailing dink sooner ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Joe wrote:

un-grounding

Good one... although it's a good idea to remember that sucking a lot of dirt into
the cooling water loop is not good.


RIATM

???



When not to: When you can do everything you need to do with wind and sail alone
When you remember that you just spent close to 500 dollars fueling up.

Damn Joe, how much fuel tankage does your boat have? Ours barely holds half that
much, and we can go to the Bahamas and back on it.....

DSK

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Mich.,

I have another very good reason for running the engine. When you want
heat out of the "RED DOT HEATER"

I found my my engine run at a fast idle on a quart of fuel per hour.
That is less diesel than the heater.

When I winter sail, I keep the Pilothouse warm this way. Also, as long
as it's running, I'll drop it in gear and Motor sail.

Ole Thom

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Doug,

I was thinking the same about Joe's fuel load. I get 1200 miles on my
twenty gallon tank. Then I got to thinking about his Motor Sailor. He
can probably motor faster than both of us when he wants, I'm just
turning a 18 HP diesel.

Another reason for running my engine is when I'm using the Micro wave
Oven off the inverter. I need the fifty amp charging.

Ole Thom

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

that is a damned expensive way to produce heat. the fuel used by most diesels
is a tiny fraction of the total cost of usage. Most people who keep track of
ALL their costs associated with keeping an engine running shows costs to be
about $3 to $5 an hour for repairs and such, plus often something similar for a
rebuild.

Except, of course (like the broker I saw last week in Melbourne FL), who claim
80,000+ hours as normal for a diesel engine before overhaul. (the damned
engine in question had leaked oil ALL over the bilge in what was maybe 30
minutes of running an otherwise spick and span boat before we arrived)

Mich.,

I have another very good reason for running the engine. When you want
heat out of the "RED DOT HEATER"

I found my my engine run at a fast idle on a quart of fuel per hour.
That is less diesel than the heater.

When I winter sail, I keep the Pilothouse warm this way. Also, as long
as it's running, I'll drop it in gear and Motor sail.

Ole Thom

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

DSK wrote in message ...
Joe wrote:

un-grounding

Good one... although it's a good idea to remember that sucking a lot of dirt into
the cooling water loop is not good.

Thats what your strainers are for! And I have a English style greaser
system not a cutlass bearing. Popular in England were the sand in the
canals whipe out cutlass bearing in no time



RIATM

Restricted in ability to manuaver

???



When not to: When you can do everything you need to do with wind and sail alone
When you remember that you just spent close to 500 dollars fueling up.

Damn Joe, how much fuel tankage does your boat have? Ours barely holds half that
much, and we can go to the Bahamas and back on it.....

That was a couple weeks ago and I did not shop around for fuel so had
to pay 1.47 a gallon. We hold 350 gallons fuel, 150 fresh water, 55
waste. And a emergency water tank I just installed in the engine room,
it's another 40 gallons.

Im going to have to replace the water tanks soon and do not look
forward to the project. I may just cut the tops off and install
bladders. At least Ill have a good excuse to re-model the counters
since Im going to have to remove/destroy them.

Joe

We can motersail from NY to London and have plenty to spare, with the
gen set running the whole time. I was low on fuel from last summers
Regetta and lots of local bay sailing and motering up and down the
ICW.

Burn about a gallon an hour max moter sailing at 8 kts in a 10 kt
wind with a 40 amp load on the genset. Less with more wind.


Joe



DSK

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

bull****! Brand spanking new diesels under manufactures laboratory conditions
have a specific fuel consumption of just under 17 hp for each gallon burned per
hour.

That would mean you make 1,200 frickken miles in 20 hours, or 60 knots.

Even if you turn you engine at just 4 hp (fuel consumption per hp goes up then)
you would stil have only 80 hours fuel onboard, making your 1,200 on a tank of
fuel *average* about 15 knots.

Which means (if one is to accept the badly flawed concept of "hull speed) your
boat's waterline to be about 120 feet, even as its displacement is about 3
ounces.

Doug,

I was thinking the same about Joe's fuel load. I get 1200 miles on my
twenty gallon tank. Then I got to thinking about his Motor Sailor. He
can probably motor faster than both of us when he wants, I'm just
turning a 18 HP diesel.

Another reason for running my engine is when I'm using the Micro wave
Oven off the inverter. I need the fifty amp charging.

Ole Thom

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

strainers don't do a real good job of keeping silt out.

Joe wrote:

un-grounding

Good one... although it's a good idea to remember that sucking a lot of
dirt into
the cooling water loop is not good.

Thats what your strainers are for! And I have a English style greaser
system not a cutlass bearing. Popular in England were the sand in the
canals whipe out cutlass bearing in no time



RIATM

Restricted in ability to manuaver

???



When not to: When you can do everything you need to do with wind and sail
alone
When you remember that you just spent close to 500 dollars fueling up.

Damn Joe, how much fuel tankage does your boat have? Ours barely holds half
that
much, and we can go to the Bahamas and back on it.....

That was a couple weeks ago and I did not shop around for fuel so had
to pay 1.47 a gallon. We hold 350 gallons fuel, 150 fresh water, 55
waste. And a emergency water tank I just installed in the engine room,
it's another 40 gallons.

Im going to have to replace the water tanks soon and do not look
forward to the project. I may just cut the tops off and install
bladders. At least Ill have a good excuse to re-model the counters
since Im going to have to remove/destroy them.

Joe

We can motersail from NY to London and have plenty to spare, with the
gen set running the whole time. I was low on fuel from last summers
Regetta and lots of local bay sailing and motering up and down the
ICW.

Burn about a gallon an hour max moter sailing at 8 kts in a 10 kt
wind with a 40 amp load on the genset. Less with more wind.


Joe



DSK

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

"Michael" wrote in message
...

4. I love the smell of over ripe sailors in the morning.

Do you? Are you sure that you are in the right ng?



Regards


Donal
--

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

DSK wrote in message ...
Joe wrote:

un-grounding

Good one... although snip

You do understand that when I say un-grounding I do mean Im pulling
another vessel usually a fin boat off an oyster reef or something dont
you?. Thats why I'm printing out no cure no pay contracts.
Powerboaters will pay dearly!
Ive got a 200 ft 1&3/4" towing hauser in the lazeret.

Joe








RIATM

???



When not to: When you can do everything you need to do with wind and sail alone
When you remember that you just spent close to 500 dollars fueling up.

Damn Joe, how much fuel tankage does your boat have? Ours barely holds half that
much, and we can go to the Bahamas and back on it.....

DSK

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Joe wrote:

You do understand that when I say un-grounding I do mean Im pulling
another vessel usually a fin boat off an oyster reef or something dont
you?. Thats why I'm printing out no cure no pay contracts.
Powerboaters will pay dearly!
Ive got a 200 ft 1&3/4" towing hauser in the lazeret.

Why so big? Most boats won't be able to get that around a cleat. Besides, you shouldn't
need a breaking strength over 6 tons to pull a stuck boat.

I had in mind using the engine to back off a sandbar or mud bank, in the first few moments
after running aground. Prompt action is key... usually after a few minutes, the wind,
waves, and/or current, plus the working action of the weight of the boat against the
bottom, digs the thing in so much that stronger measures are called for.

One reason why a fixed 3 blade prop is nice for boats running the ICW... not only do you
motor a lot in the ditch, it's got much more bounce to the ounce when trying to back off a
shoal.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Motor Sailing is when the Sail assists the motor and Sail Motoring is when
the Motor Assists the sail. I made all that up just now though. The only
source you can refer to is me.

M.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:

1 When to use them: In an out of harbors obvously.

Not necessarily. It greatly depends on the harbor, the wind & tide, the
traffic,
the boat, the skipper, etc etc.

Usually my consideration is wind & tide, and traffic. Sailing around in
unfavorable currents, light & flukey winds, and playing stoop-tag with
freighters is not good.


In narrow fairways and rivers or canals.

The C&D canal and the Cape Cod canal both forbid sailing through. I've
been told
they are both equipped with spy cameras nowadays for enforcement. In times
past
I have cheated and sailed through....



When the speed of sailing is not sufficient to the arrival
goal, unless you are a purist which I'm not.

Trying to cruise under sail and keep a schedule is stupid. It can be
dangerous
too. Adds stress. Worse than motoring IMHO.


When caught in the doldrums.

Or trapped by bad priorities, having chosen a boat that sails like
Grandpa's
barn.



When water is low or you have an emergency on board.

Agreed.

Here's one trick.
Sail Motoring as opposed to Motor Sailing. When you can't go in the
right
direction due to the winds running the prop at slow rpms enhances the
ability of the boat to point high by 10 to 20 additional degrees.
(Variable
as to hull and conditions). If that will get you through a narrow
passage
between islands so be it.

How would you define the difference between Motor Sailing and Sail
Motoring?
Just curious.


When on delivery jobs with a deadline to meet.

Agreed. But I don't do that any more (tentatively, a friend has asked me
to help
with a delivery this spring)


When getting out of the way of or handling the presence of a storm
condition.

Disagree here... although there may some situations like this, such as
getting
out of the danger quadrant in the calm before the storm. But most boats
should
sail well enough that this is unnecessary.


When you need electricity to listen to the NBA, NFL, America's
Cup or World Cup finals.

Your battery bank is too small.



3. Add your own reasons.

You forgot running bridges. In many places it is against the rules to sail
through open bridges.

Now that we cruise in a tugboat, it's really not a question. But we can
get to
anchorages quicker and set up the windsurfers or sailing dink sooner ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Damn . . .back to the merchant marine . . . .

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
...

4. I love the smell of over ripe sailors in the morning.

Do you? Are you sure that you are in the right ng?



Regards


Donal
--

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Michael asked: 1. You run a line from the hot water outlet on the =
engine to the shower to
the drain to the stern outlet?

No....hot water through engine to got water heater/storage unit (duel =
system) through pump to faucet and shower head, then out drain....

2. Shower at Sea? That's what rain squalls are for.

If it rains....

3. Shower? What's a Shower? Next thing you know you'll be wanting a =
real
head!

Got a real head....don't do no cedar bucket stuff....

4. I love the smell of over ripe sailors in the morning.

I don't...I love the smell of fresh air, water, and rain....the smell of =
over ripe bodies is disgusting.

M.

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Jax,

Back off a bit you Olympic class Conclusion Jumper, and look at the
whole picture in your warped mind.

I've owned the boat for 15 yrs. My average running time per year is 47
hrs. The highest usage for a single year was 82 hrs.

If you re-read my post I only run the Red Dot heater during winter
sailing (Probably 1/4 of my sailing time) Most sailors would know this.
Also, When the Pilothouse get up to Temp. I shut the engine down to
enjoy the silence.

I fill my 20 gallon tank once a year. In the spring. I still have diesel
in it. About 1/8 to a 1/4 of a tank. This I pump out into a tank, when I
change filters and oil. The old fuel I give to a live aboard who heats
with diesel. He services my engine for this gift.

During the summer months I go on motor trips to get running time on my
engine. My problem has never been over use, it has always been under
use. I'm sure most Aux sailors will confirm this for you, since you
don't have a clue yourself.

As far as using the Micro Wave, to charge batteries, I suggest you get a
cook book as find out how long it takes to Micro Wave a couple of
Dungeness Crabs before you let that, "Magnificent Mind" of yours form a
assinine mental picture due to lack of knowledge.

Ole Thom

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

If there is no rain then refer to #4.

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Michael asked: 1. You run a line from the hot water outlet on the engine to
the shower to
the drain to the stern outlet?

No....hot water through engine to got water heater/storage unit (duel
system) through pump to faucet and shower head, then out drain....

2. Shower at Sea? That's what rain squalls are for.

If it rains....

3. Shower? What's a Shower? Next thing you know you'll be wanting a real
head!

Got a real head....don't do no cedar bucket stuff....

4. I love the smell of over ripe sailors in the morning.

I don't...I love the smell of fresh air, water, and rain....the smell of
over ripe bodies is disgusting.

M.

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Michael wrote:

Motor Sailing is when the Sail assists the motor and Sail Motoring is when
the Motor Assists the sail. I made all that up just now though. The only
source you can refer to is me.

OK, got it.

The cool thing about being your own reference is that you can't be wrong!

DSK

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

DSK wrote in message ...
Joe wrote:

You do understand that when I say un-grounding I do mean Im pulling
another vessel usually a fin boat off an oyster reef or something dont
you?. Thats why I'm printing out no cure no pay contracts.
Powerboaters will pay dearly!
Ive got a 200 ft 1&3/4" towing hauser in the lazeret.

Why so big? Most boats won't be able to get that around a cleat. Besides, you shouldn't
need a breaking strength over 6 tons to pull a stuck boat.

Well I have a padeye to shackle it to no my boat both fore and aft.
I'm not to concerned about tearing someone elses cleats off. Most the
boats I pulled off use smaller line that they have and just thread it
thru the thimble. Usually after the Harvest moon regetta we take the
ICW back along with several hundred other sailboats, its about a 250
mile trip and we average pulling 3-4 boats off a year. I usually do it
for free, but had a couple were I had to use the heaving gun so I
charge them 50 dollars for a new line.

I had in mind using the engine to back off a sandbar or mud bank, in the first few moments
after running aground. Prompt action is key... usually after a few minutes, the wind,
waves, and/or current, plus the working action of the weight of the boat against the
bottom, digs the thing in so much that stronger measures are called for.

One reason why a fixed 3 blade prop is nice for boats running the ICW... not only do you
motor a lot in the ditch, it's got much more bounce to the ounce when trying to back off a
shoal.


We have a 3 blade 24 square. Ive only had to kedge off twice.

Joe
MSV RedCloud


Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:

Motor Sailing is when the Sail assists the motor and Sail Motoring is
when
the Motor Assists the sail. I made all that up just now though. The only
source you can refer to is me.

OK, got it.

The cool thing about being your own reference is that you can't be wrong!

DSK


And it worked! Just call me Mr. Right (no wings attached)

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Michael said: If there is no rain then refer to #4.


Eeeewwwww...yucky......


--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Since you're the only authority on the subject I appeal to you to swap
the meaning of the words, so that motoring will be motoring and
sailing will be sailing:

Motorsailing would be sailing with motor assistance and Sailmotoring
would be motoring with the additional use of sail.

If we could agree on this, we would all know exactly what we were
doing.

Peter S/Y Anicula


"Michael" wrote:
Motor Sailing is when the Sail assists the motor and Sail Motoring
is when
the Motor Assists the sail. I made all that up just now though. The
only
source you can refer to is me.

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

Hmmm. . . .Even better would be motor motoring and sail sailing. The first
is the same as wearing a belt and suspenders. For example running the
internal diesel engine with the external outboard or adding rubber bands.
The second is defined as 'cracking on more sail.'

Works for me.

M.


"Peter S/Y Anicula" wrote in message
k...
Since you're the only authority on the subject I appeal to you to swap
the meaning of the words, so that motoring will be motoring and
sailing will be sailing:

Motorsailing would be sailing with motor assistance and Sailmotoring
would be motoring with the additional use of sail.

If we could agree on this, we would all know exactly what we were
doing.

Peter S/Y Anicula


"Michael" wrote:
Motor Sailing is when the Sail assists the motor and Sail Motoring
is when
the Motor Assists the sail. I made all that up just now though. The
only
source you can refer to is me.

Engines on sailboats, When? When Not?
 

I thought about that to, but I gave up the idea when my mind started
to run hot thinking about what to call a sail sailingboat with the
engine running or a motor motoring boat with sails or even a motor
motoring boat that had cracked more sail on, and .... well I gave it
up.

By the way, what is with the rubber bands, that works for you?

Peter S/Y Anicula


"Michael" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Hmmm. . . .Even better would be motor motoring and sail sailing. The
first
is the same as wearing a belt and suspenders. For example running
the
internal diesel engine with the external outboard or adding rubber
bands.
The second is defined as 'cracking on more sail.'

Works for me.

M.


"Peter S/Y Anicula" wrote in
message
k...
Since you're the only authority on the subject I appeal to you to
swap
the meaning of the words, so that motoring will be motoring and
sailing will be sailing:

Motorsailing would be sailing with motor assistance and
Sailmotoring
would be motoring with the additional use of sail.

If we could agree on this, we would all know exactly what we were
doing.

Peter S/Y Anicula


"Michael" wrote:
Motor Sailing is when the Sail assists the motor and Sail
Motoring
is when
the Motor Assists the sail. I made all that up just now though.
The
only
source you can refer to is me.