Vito Steockli wrote:


Sorry Katy but I fail to see the humor. MDs' "medical misadventures" kill at
least the 125,000 you mention (some put it at 2 or 3x that) but nobody even
notices.

I'd hardly say that 'nobody botices.' But if you genuinely believe that doctors
kill that many people, don't go to one.



To put a face on one of these "misadventures", a famous lady motorcycle
rider suffered a minor concussion in a crash that left her BMW unrideable so
she opted to stay in the hospital overnight. Her husband arrived and they
visited several hours, planning to head for home in th morning. But next
morning she was dead!! Seems somebody gave her an injection meant for a
different patient .....

Can you imagine the hubub if .... oh well.

I can imagine there was a LOT of hubbub over a case like that.

Aside from that tragic mistake, doctors don't usually give people shots. Nurses
or increasingly in this economic climates, half-trained aids, give shots.



No intent to pick on you Katy but US medicine is in a sorry state and we're
too busy worrying about drug dealers shooting each other to even notice.

That must be why everybody who can afford it comes to American hospitals for
major operations.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Vito Steockli wrote:


Sorry Katy but I fail to see the humor. MDs' "medical misadventures"
kill at
least the 125,000 you mention (some put it at 2 or 3x that) but nobody
even
notices.

I'd hardly say that 'nobody botices.' But if you genuinely believe that
doctors
kill that many people, don't go to one.

It isn't what I, or anybody else "believes" it is a fact; to "believe"
otherwise is like believing that the whole world was once flooded for a
month. Nor is your solution practical. The cost of care is so exorbitant
that we should expect and demand "zero defects".



To put a face on one of these "misadventures", a famous lady motorcycle
rider suffered a minor concussion in a crash that left her BMW
unrideable so
she opted to stay in the hospital overnight. Her husband arrived and
they
visited several hours, planning to head for home in th morning. But next
morning she was dead!! Seems somebody gave her an injection meant for a
different patient .....

Can you imagine the hubub if .... oh well.

I can imagine there was a LOT of hubbub over a case like that.

Aside from that tragic mistake, doctors don't usually give people shots.
Nurses
or increasingly in this economic climates, half-trained aids, give shots.



No intent to pick on you Katy but US medicine is in a sorry state and
we're
too busy worrying about drug dealers shooting each other to even notice.

That must be why everybody who can afford it comes to American hospitals
for
major operations.

DSK

Vito Steockli wrote:


It isn't what I, or anybody else "believes" it is a fact; to "believe"
otherwise is like believing that the whole world was once flooded for a
month.

If it was, then such a belief would be correct, wouldn't it?


Nor is your solution practical.

About not going to a doctor? Sure it's practical, it savves a lot of time &
money and for somebody with your 'beliefs' (oops there's that word again) it
should seem a lot safer.


The cost of care is so exorbitant
that we should expect and demand "zero defects".

Sorry, we live in an imperfect world. When you can absolutely guarantee that you
yourself never make any single mistake, no matter how small, then you can demand
that of others. Also remember that between 60% and 99% of the cost of your
medical care comes out of somebody elses pocket... and there ain't no such thing
as a free lunch.

Meantime, why don't you try going to a lawyer when you feel sick? He can sue the
germs for you, that would be error-free and possibly cheaper.

DSK

"DSK" wrot

If it was, then such a belief would be correct, wouldn't it?

A belief is based on incomplete sometimes erroneous info even tho it may be
true. A fact is not.


About not going to a doctor? Sure it's practical,....

It would be if we were allowed to treat ourselves but we are not, at least
not in the USA. I need a couple simple compounds to stay alive. The only
legal way I can get them is by obtaining a MD's permission. Ergo it is
impractical for me to avoid seeing an MD regularly.

... When you can absolutely guarantee that you yourself never make any
single mistake, ...

First, we're not talking about "never" or "single mistakes" or even minor
mistakes, we're talking about over 125,000 people being killed every year.
Second, if I were being paid MD's wages I'd expect to be at least as error
free as say the early space program. A nonsupervisory PhD scientist gets
paid $120/yr by our rich uncle Sam whilst most MDs think themselves
underpaid if they earn less than 10X that. Of course MDs pay high liability
insurance premiums. So do male teen drivers - for the same reason.

.... Also remember that between 60% and 99% of the cost of your
medical care comes out of somebody elses pocket...

Smoke and mirrors! When I bid on a cost plus contract I include medical
benefits as part of wages, then add overhead and finally profit. I could
give that money to the workers without changing profit but could not legally
keep it as profit. The company is simply a middle man distributing part of
each workers' earnings to some medical insurer.

Enjoy your turkey.

Vito Steockli wrote:


A belief is based on incomplete sometimes erroneous info even tho it may be
true. A fact is not.

Yep.

And some peoples 'facts' are, in fact, just beliefs.


... not going to a doctor? Sure it's practical,....

It would be if we were allowed to treat ourselves but we are not, at least
not in the USA. I need a couple simple compounds to stay alive. The only
legal way I can get them is by obtaining a MD's permission. Ergo it is
impractical for me to avoid seeing an MD regularly.

Ah, well, but that's just you. Seems to me there are several ways around this,
not the least of which is to see what heppens when you go without these
'compounds.' You haven't died yet, I assume, so how do you know for sure?



.... we're talking about over 125,000 people being killed

I suggest you consider what you mean by 'being killed.'

AFAIK no doctor has ever killed anybody. Regrettably, it is all to common for
doctors to fail to save people from fatal diseases & conditions. That's not the
doctors fault.


.... if I were being paid MD's wages I'd expect to be at least as error
free as say the early space program. A nonsupervisory PhD scientist gets
paid $120/yr by our rich uncle Sam whilst most MDs think themselves
underpaid if they earn less than 10X that.

And many of them have hundreds of thousands of doallars of debt they undertook
to get through medical school, too.

So, is your resentment against doctors based on the belief that they're rich and
you're not? That's just plain Bolshevism. Says far more about you than about
them.

Of course, some doctors *are* rich. And of the ones who are, some have worked
incredibly hard to earn it. In any event, if you resent paying a doctor lots of
money, and doubt the doctors ability to cure you, then don't go to one. It's
just the same as not buying a boat you don't like.



.... Also remember that between 60% and 99% of the cost of your
medical care comes out of somebody elses pocket...

Smoke and mirrors!

No, it isn't.


When I bid on a cost plus contract I include medical
benefits as part of wages, then add overhead and finally profit. I could
give that money to the workers without changing profit but could not legally
keep it as profit. The company is simply a middle man distributing part of
each workers' earnings to some medical insurer.

And this isn't 'smoke & mirrors'? Has nothing to do with who pays your doctor
bills.

If your doctor handed you a bill for all services he (and his staff) rendered,
then you'd be paying your doctor bill (and it would cost a lot less). But you
don't. Instead you give a long song & dance proving nothing.

Bottom line- the money to pay for your medical care comes out of a lot of
different pockets, but you do NOT pay most of your own doctor bills. Period.




Enjoy your turkey.

Thanks, hope you enjoyed yours.

DSK

This sounds a lot like taxes. The company is just the 'middleman' who
collects taxes under one name or another and passes the 'cost' of doing so
on to the consumer, or deducts the 'cost' of doing so from benefits the
workers including management would have received, or deducts the 'cost' of
doing so from the amount the 'investors' would have gained as a return on
investment. The 'cost' includes the 'tax' itself and the price paid for
doing the 'work' of collecting and passing it on to the taxing entity.

Ah well . . .some think the cost of taxes is somehow miraculously made,
presumably by sharp accountants, to what? Disappear?

The nonsense going on in Louisiana now is over the proposed lowering of the
'sugar' tariffs. We pay an artifically inflated price for sugar in the US,
much more than does the rest of the world. The reason is to keep out
competition from, primarily, Caribbean grown sugar. On the one hand is
'artificially' protects the jobs and so forth of the sugar producers in
Louisiana and Colorado but . . ...where's the rest of the story. The
housewife who pays 1.49 instead of .49 doesn't have that dollar difference
to spend 'elsewhere'. Some other business and their employees suffer to the
tune of that one dollar. Multiplied over a year times every household in
the country it's a multi billion dollar loss to other businesses. The
entire nation is forced to pay a hidden 'tax' to support a very few people
(only 20,000 in Louisiana) to the detriment of 20,000 employees somewhere
else. Not to mention the effect on the sugar industry workers of the
Caribbean and elsewhere. Who profits? Who loses? Who ate turkey? Who got
the bone?

MST

Seems to me there are several ways around this,
not the least of which is to see what heppens when you go without these
'compounds.' You haven't died yet, I assume, so how do you know for =
sure?

There's more truth than you know in that statement. When we take in an =
admission, the resident is often on a drug regime that would intimidate =
most people. We have had admissions with people on from 20-30 drugs. =
State nursing home law mandates that we start weaning. It's amazing =
what happens. We usually get the person down to 5-6 necessaries and =
voila! their health improves. The spirits rise...and those that were =
slated to be admitted and pass away have been known to live another year =
or two. Part of that problem, and part of the problem why there are =
medical accidents, is that people go to more than one doctor and use =
more than one pharmacy. The right hand does not know what the left is =
doing and the people begin to medicate themselves to death. When they =
arrive at a nursing facility, everything is placed under the =
jurisdiction of the medical director and one pharmacy...they begin the =
process. If it's cardiac drugs Vito's on, much can be done to eliminate =
there necessity by diet and exercise. He is probably a diabetic, =
though, and is referring to his insulin. He mustn't tamper with that =
one. At least not until they figure out how to do a pancreatic =
transplant or find a way to make stem cells regenerate pancreatic =
tissue. (i can say that now that I have been informed that you can get =
stem cells in your own body and don't need the assistance of an unborn =
baby).

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Seems to me there are several ways around this,
not the least of which is to see what heppens when you go without these
'compounds.' You haven't died yet, I assume, so how do you know for sure?


katysails wrote:
There's more truth than you know in that statement. When we take in an admission, the resident is often on a drug regime that would intimidate most people. We have had admissions with people on from 20-30 drugs.

A lot of people are walking chemical experiments.

Does the FDA mandate testing drugs in combinations? No.

Do drugs interact with each other, or cause bodily reactions which change the body's reaction to other drugs? Absolutely.

Do we have any idea what the effects of all these drug combinations are? You gotta be kidding.

Most people would rather take a lot of drugs, and complain about how much they cost, and not feel good much of the time, instead of making changes in their lives & their habits to become healthier.

State nursing home law mandates that we start weaning. It's amazing what happens. We usually get the person down to 5-6 necessaries and voila!

their health improves.

Very sensible IMHO. BTW are you sure you're not violating HIPPAA rules in joining this discussion


... Part of that problem, and part of the problem why there are medical accidents, is that people go to more than one doctor and use more than one pharmacy. The right hand does not know what the left is doing and the people begin to medicate themselves to death. When they arrive at a nursing facility, everything is placed under the jurisdiction of the medical director and one pharmacy...they begin the process. If it's cardiac drugs Vito's on, much can be done to eliminate there necessity
by diet and exercise. He is probably a diabetic, though, and is referring to his insulin. He mustn't tamper with that one.

True enough, but a proper diet can still help.


At least not until they figure out how to do a pancreatic transplant or find a way to make stem cells regenerate pancreatic tissue. (i can say that now that I have been informed that you can get stem cells in your own body and don't need the assistance of an unborn baby).

I don't understand why anybody is against stem cell research. Are you against the space program too? If God didn't want it to happen, She would have made it impossible in the first place.

We will see regeneration of tissue within a decade or two, provided we don't see a major collapse of science programs. Of course, it may happen in Australia or China or Poland, rather than the USA, if this country continues it's current trend of trying to turn back the clock to about 1680.

Back to the drug thing, why do the same people who want to fight a "War On Drugs" also want the gov't to subsidize mass hypochondria?

Boats are fine, it's people that I can't figure out!

DSK