WET RIDE TODAY
 

While everyone was working on hauled boats, I was out
sailing on HOOT today.

Winds were 15-20 from the SSW clocking around to SW.

I was hoping to fly the chute all the way up the river, but the
veering wind killed that idea.

I want to go out again tomorrow, but can't find experienced
crew. Winds will be 20-30 with a front coming through in the
afternoon.

Bart

WET RIDE TODAY
 

I'm jealous.

M.

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Ok, now try that in a 10' dinghy like the Xcite.
The morning was dead, but then about noon it
picked up and was blowing up to 22.
(http://www.millersismd.com/home/millers_island_md
..htm) Water temp is about 55°.
We're running a level 1 instructor training class.
We've got two young girls from Barnegat Bay that
are hot sailors. What a blast racing against
them!
--
----
Steve
S/V Pony Express

"Bart Senior" bartsenior
wrote in message
...
: While everyone was working on hauled boats, I
was out
: sailing on HOOT today.
:
: Winds were 15-20 from the SSW clocking around to
SW.
:
: I was hoping to fly the chute all the way up the
river, but the
: veering wind killed that idea.
:
: I want to go out again tomorrow, but can't find
experienced
: crew. Winds will be 20-30 with a front coming
through in the
: afternoon.
:
: Bart

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Didn't you just have a birthday, old man?

"Pony Express" wrote ...
two young girls from Barnegat Bay that are hot

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. But what does
that have to do with anything, especially the
sailing abilities of two of the students?
--
----
Steve
S/V Pony Express

"Scott Vernon" wrote in
message
...
: Didn't you just have a birthday, old man?
:
: "Pony Express" wrote ...
: two young girls from Barnegat Bay that are
hot
:
:
:
:

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. But what does
that have to do with anything, especially the
sailing abilities of two of the students?
--=20
Scotty must think the meter stops after a certain point....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

WET RIDE TODAY
 

So after a season of sailing them, how do you like the Excite?

Do you need wet suits to sail them?

How about a boat review for us?


The Housatonic River where I sailed as a youth in a centerboard
Mercury is the not the best place to sail a 30 keelboat with 4.5'
draft. San Francisco is a far better place since grounding is never a
problem. Currents in the Housatonic River get over 6 knots on the
ebb--I've heard numbers as high as 9 knots after a heavy rain--which I
didn't believe when I first heard it. Now I'm not so skeptical.

I spent most of the summer away on business and did not sail much this
year. In half a dozen sailing adventures, I've managed to run HOOT
aground 6 out of 6 times in the river.

Some boats are easy to clear a grounding-the 23' Ensign for example.
It was interesting to learn that Etchells are very hard to free on a
grounding. Usually I see groundings are training excercises for my
crew. Not in this case.

I'm the only dry sailed keelboat at the Boat Club that tacks in and
out of the river. The other dry sailors consist of a fleet of J-24's
that use their outboards. Not having a engine gives me the excuse to
sail in and out of the river. I thoroughly enjoy dodging the parade
of power boats going either in or out depending on the wind direction.
And so far few of the power boaters have gotten mad at me--I think
this is because the boat is so pretty and I make a effort to stay out
of the way. Still they can make it difficult when they stack up
close together where the channel is very narrow. I'm still not fully
comfortable with the shoal areas. I try to depart on a rising tide
because the potential to sink the boat if grounded on a falling tide
with any kind of chop is very real.

Etchells are very stiff boats and it's nearly impossible to get them
off a grounding with body weight alone to heel them over. Nor does
kedging seem to work. Saturday, I was very surprised to touch bottom
because we were very close to the edge of the channel in an area I
thought was safe. I used the wind--sheeting the main in hard and
backwinding the jib to point downwind, combined with weight to leeward
to free myself.

It is against the class rules to install a depth sounder, but I'd be a
fool not to. That is something for next season.

Bart Senior

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:58:01 GMT, "Pony Express"
wrote:

Ok, now try that in a 10' dinghy like the Xcite.
The morning was dead, but then about noon it
picked up and was blowing up to 22.
(http://www.millersismd.com/home/millers_island_md
.htm) Water temp is about 55°.
We're running a level 1 instructor training class.
We've got two young girls from Barnegat Bay that
are hot sailors. What a blast racing against
them!

WET RIDE TODAY
 

When it gets cold I might were a spray suit. So
far, I'm still wearing my work clothes (bathing
suit and a tee shirt).
The boat is a good boat for kids programs. Being
ACP, it flexes on impact as opposed to glass. We
had made some modifications but are in the process
of making a few more. We had two mast failures in
25k winds. They both broke right at the partner.
This is a rotating mast and I think it could be a
combination of wear as it rubs on the partner and
the fact that there is hole for a retaining pin
right under the partner.
We had some leaks, but they are working with us to
get them fixed as the show up. Apparently, since
they were rushing the construction process to meet
our dead line, some of the centerboard slots
didn't get sealed well. There have also been a
few other hardware issues that will be resolved.
We put JY15 rudders on them instead of the stock
sunfish rudder. This makes the boats pretty
responsive.
In our Xcite nationals, which we held, we had guys
as big as 250# in these little 10', 95# boats.
They seemed to do ok.
We're putting our high schoolers into them and
even some of your adult LTS students in them with
fairly good results. The single handed boat
concept seems to work for 95% of the students.
--
----
Steve
S/V Pony Express

"Bart Senior" bartsenior
wrote in message
...
: So after a season of sailing them, how do you
like the Excite?
:
: Do you need wet suits to sail them?
:
: How about a boat review for us?
:
:
: The Housatonic River where I sailed as a youth
in a centerboard
: Mercury is the not the best place to sail a 30
keelboat with 4.5'
: draft. San Francisco is a far better place
since grounding is never a
: problem. Currents in the Housatonic River get
over 6 knots on the
: ebb--I've heard numbers as high as 9 knots after
a heavy rain--which I
: didn't believe when I first heard it. Now I'm
not so skeptical.
:
: I spent most of the summer away on business and
did not sail much this
: year. In half a dozen sailing adventures, I've
managed to run HOOT
: aground 6 out of 6 times in the river.
:
: Some boats are easy to clear a grounding-the 23'
Ensign for example.
: It was interesting to learn that Etchells are
very hard to free on a
: grounding. Usually I see groundings are
training excercises for my
: crew. Not in this case.
:
: I'm the only dry sailed keelboat at the Boat
Club that tacks in and
: out of the river. The other dry sailors
consist of a fleet of J-24's
: that use their outboards. Not having a engine
gives me the excuse to
: sail in and out of the river. I thoroughly
enjoy dodging the parade
: of power boats going either in or out depending
on the wind direction.
: And so far few of the power boaters have gotten
mad at me--I think
: this is because the boat is so pretty and I make
a effort to stay out
: of the way. Still they can make it difficult
when they stack up
: close together where the channel is very narrow.
I'm still not fully
: comfortable with the shoal areas. I try to
depart on a rising tide
: because the potential to sink the boat if
grounded on a falling tide
: with any kind of chop is very real.
:
: Etchells are very stiff boats and it's nearly
impossible to get them
: off a grounding with body weight alone to heel
them over. Nor does
: kedging seem to work. Saturday, I was very
surprised to touch bottom
: because we were very close to the edge of the
channel in an area I
: thought was safe. I used the wind--sheeting the
main in hard and
: backwinding the jib to point downwind, combined
with weight to leeward
: to free myself.
:
: It is against the class rules to install a depth
sounder, but I'd be a
: fool not to. That is something for next season.
:
: Bart Senior
:
: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:58:01 GMT, "Pony Express"
: wrote:
:
: Ok, now try that in a 10' dinghy like the
Xcite.
: The morning was dead, but then about noon it
: picked up and was blowing up to 22.
:
(http://www.millersismd.com/home/millers_island_m
d
: .htm) Water temp is about 55°.
: We're running a level 1 instructor training
class.
: We've got two young girls from Barnegat Bay
that
: are hot sailors. What a blast racing against
: them!
:

WET RIDE TODAY
 

What does Hunter say about the rudder?

Are they planning on make the same switch to the JY15 rudder?


On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:35:11 GMT, "Pony Express"
wrote:


We put JY15 rudders on them instead of the stock
sunfish rudder. This makes the boats pretty
responsive.

WET RIDE TODAY
 

No, they are sticking with their stock sunfish
rudder. We did it partially for simplicity and
uniformity. We put the same rudder on the JY14's
as well. Then we just keep a couple spares on hand
and they'll fit any boat.
--
----
Steve
S/V Pony Express

"Bart Senior" bartsenior
wrote in message
...
: What does Hunter say about the rudder?
:
: Are they planning on make the same switch to
the JY15 rudder?
:
:
: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:35:11 GMT, "Pony Express"
: wrote:
:
:
: We put JY15 rudders on them instead of the
stock
: sunfish rudder. This makes the boats pretty
: responsive.
:
:

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Bart Senior wrote:

While everyone was working on hauled boats, I was out
sailing on HOOT today.

Winds were 15-20 from the SSW clocking around to SW.

Hmm. Down here it was no wind and drizzly rain. I got invited to go
out for a local PHRF race but didn't. We stayed in the slip &
worked on the boat. Not everyone has to haul out for the winter!





I was hoping to fly the chute all the way up the river, but the
veering wind killed that idea.

I want to go out again tomorrow, but can't find experienced
crew. Winds will be 20-30 with a front coming through in the
afternoon.

You don't need experienced crew, you just need someone who can
follow instructions under trying conditions. BTW if you're not
racing one design, you can put a retrieval line on the chute. Very
good addition IMHO.

How far up the river is "all the way"?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Pony Express wrote:

No, they are sticking with their stock sunfish
rudder. We did it partially for simplicity and
uniformity. We put the same rudder on the JY14's
as well. Then we just keep a couple spares on hand
and they'll fit any boat.

Good idea IMHO. Sending students out in boats with
undersize rudders is not a good idea. Once they get
the idea, it might be nice to let them get a handle on
the sort of bad handling characteristics they'll
encounter out in the real world, but then also sailing
a boat with an undersize rudder leads to some bad
helming habits.

FB
Doug King

WET RIDE TODAY
 

sailing
a boat with an undersize rudder leads to some bad
helming habits.

The Captains Nemesis wrote:
Like what?

Basically, oversteering all the time.

DSK

WET RIDE TODAY
 

That's why I push the rudderless drill. You don't
need a rudder to steer a boat. We run rudderless
races. Once you get in the mind set of using
weight placement to steer the boat, you can get
away from oversteering. People often forget the
rudder is an effective brake.
--
----
Steve
S/V Pony Express

"DSK" wrote in message
...
: sailing
: a boat with an undersize rudder leads to some
bad
: helming habits.
:
: The Captains Nemesis wrote:
: Like what?
:
: Basically, oversteering all the time.
:
: DSK
:

WET RIDE TODAY
 

The Captains Nemesis wrote:


OK, like not balancing the boat properly and putting the brakes on
with the rudder?

Not sure, but that seems more likely to develop as a habit in somebody who
sails a boat with an oversized rudder.

Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or digging
the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots of
racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.

Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and when
shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still use
some work....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

WET RIDE TODAY
 

The Captains Nemesis wrote:


OK.....I've noticed guys doing it, never thought of it being caused by
anything buy impatience and lack of finesse.
It's one of the things we look at hard when someone in the Etchells
complains of lack of speed.

The Etchells has a nice balanced rudder and flat aft sections, I'd think it
wouldn't be too sensitive to oversteering.

But then, one of the fastest helmsmen I ever sailed with didn't move the tiller.
Once I realized that he was steering more with heel angle and mainshet tension, I
used to watch his hand closely... he did it instinctively and was used to winning
by miles. I swear he only moved the tiller about two inches in full-press roll
tacks.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.

Bart

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:


Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or digging
the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots of
racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.

Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and when
shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still use
some work....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Can't say as I agree with you there Bart. Overworking the rudder....
especially on a barn door size like mine is a sure way to slow down in a
hurry. The rudder will want to turn the boat to least resistance.... not to
the direction you want to go. I stand firm on not allowing to much
correction to take place by my helmsman.

CM

"Bart Senior" bartsenior wrote in message
...
| Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
| and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.
|
| Bart
|
| On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:
|
|
| Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or
digging
| the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots
of
| racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
| unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.
|
| Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and
when
| shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
| sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still
use
| some work....
|
| Fresh Breezes- Doug King
|

WET RIDE TODAY
 

To have a proper discussion we'd have to split this into at least
three parts. One man dinks, light weight medium sized boats
an larger heavy displacment boats.

Rudder movement is a very effective tool for slowing down. I
use dramatic motions with the rudder to kill speed when docking
under sail. The is no question that it slows you down.

I tend to agree with you on heavier boats. Have you ever had
your boat surfing in big waves?

I've surfed a 38 ton schooner and the drag caused by the
dramatic helm movement was more than made up for in the
added accelleration coming down a monster wave in the
Pacific.

On lighter boats in waves, working the helm to a certain degree
--not constantly, is not only a help but a necessity.

Depending on conditions, it is important to position yourself
correctly on the wave, to surf and get that extra accelleration.
It is worth the effort. Once in position on the wave, of
course you want to minimize drag, and keep the helm centered,
to sustain the surf and keep it there as long as possible.

On dinghies, with onlly one person aboard. Body weight can
be effectively substituted for tiller movement--I think that was
the point Doug made. The fastest sailor use the minimum helm
movement and steer with body weight.

I think it would take an awesome crew on medium sized boats
to use body weight effectively.

Bart


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:44:58 -0400, "Capt. Mooron"
wrote:

Can't say as I agree with you there Bart. Overworking the rudder....
especially on a barn door size like mine is a sure way to slow down in a
hurry. The rudder will want to turn the boat to least resistance.... not to
the direction you want to go. I stand firm on not allowing to much
correction to take place by my helmsman.

CM

"Bart Senior" bartsenior wrote in message
.. .
| Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
| and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.
|
| Bart
|
| On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:
|
|
| Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or
digging
| the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots
of
| racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
| unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.
|
| Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and
when
| shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
| sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still
use
| some work....
|
| Fresh Breezes- Doug King
|

WET RIDE TODAY
 

So getting the boats head wiped off increases speed?

Cheers MC

Bart Senior wrote:

Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.

Bart

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:


Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or digging
the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots of
racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.

Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and when
shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still use
some work....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Balanced rubber? Oh boy!


Cheers MC

DSK wrote:


The Etchells has a nice balanced rudder and flat aft sections, I'd think it
wouldn't be too sensitive to oversteering.

WET RIDE TODAY
 

Yes I surfed my 6 ton full keel down some fairly large steep waves...
breaking about 15 feet up and 10 feet behind the transom. The last thing I
thought about was wanting to slow the boat down. :-)

When you put it in light of smaller vessels I can see the point. On my boat
though.... you want a steady helm. I generally find the groove and I can
lock it there to fine tune the set. Even on a broad reach where you are
cresting the wave top and she starts that little hesitation before screaming
down the wave... everyone tries to correct for what they misinterpret as a
yaw. I found that if you hold firm she finds her place without losing speed
or bearing. Each vessel is different and a full keeler is a majestic
powerhouse in a full sea and good breeze.

CM




"Bart Senior" bartsenior wrote in message
...
|
| To have a proper discussion we'd have to split this into at least
| three parts. One man dinks, light weight medium sized boats
| an larger heavy displacment boats.
|
| Rudder movement is a very effective tool for slowing down. I
| use dramatic motions with the rudder to kill speed when docking
| under sail. The is no question that it slows you down.
|
| I tend to agree with you on heavier boats. Have you ever had
| your boat surfing in big waves?
|
| I've surfed a 38 ton schooner and the drag caused by the
| dramatic helm movement was more than made up for in the
| added accelleration coming down a monster wave in the
| Pacific.
|
| On lighter boats in waves, working the helm to a certain degree
| --not constantly, is not only a help but a necessity.
|
| Depending on conditions, it is important to position yourself
| correctly on the wave, to surf and get that extra accelleration.
| It is worth the effort. Once in position on the wave, of
| course you want to minimize drag, and keep the helm centered,
| to sustain the surf and keep it there as long as possible.
|
| On dinghies, with onlly one person aboard. Body weight can
| be effectively substituted for tiller movement--I think that was
| the point Doug made. The fastest sailor use the minimum helm
| movement and steer with body weight.
|
| I think it would take an awesome crew on medium sized boats
| to use body weight effectively.
|
| Bart
|
|
| On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:44:58 -0400, "Capt. Mooron"
| wrote:
|
| Can't say as I agree with you there Bart. Overworking the rudder....
| especially on a barn door size like mine is a sure way to slow down in a
| hurry. The rudder will want to turn the boat to least resistance.... not
to
| the direction you want to go. I stand firm on not allowing to much
| correction to take place by my helmsman.
|
| CM
|
| "Bart Senior" bartsenior wrote in
message
| .. .
| | Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
| | and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.
| |
| | Bart
| |
| | On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:
| |
| |
| | Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or
| digging
| | the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done
lots
| of
| | racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
| | unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.
| |
| | Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and
| when
| | shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that
jerk
| | sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could
still
| use
| | some work....
| |
| | Fresh Breezes- Doug King
| |
|
|

WET RIDE TODAY
 

No head on this boat. Only a bucket.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:43:58 +1300, The_navigator©
wrote:

So getting the boats head wiped off increases speed?

Cheers MC

Bart Senior wrote:

Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.

Bart

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:


Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or digging
the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots of
racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.

Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and when
shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still use
some work....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King