Spinnaker question
 

Last night we flew the spinnaker on Alien without a pole, using a
spinnaker-guy, which is much like the Tacker. This setup is for a beam reach
and not quite right for running dead downwind.
My question is on mainsail trim. Sailing with the mainsail trimmed "ideally"
seems to block the spinnaker to some degree. I've been told that overtrimming
the main a bit is best, but I see pics that dispute this.
Anyone have experience/ideas for this setup?
Obviously, rigging the pole is best, but it can be a drag when Suzanne and I
sail alone.

Thanks,

RB

Spinnaker question
 

Last night we flew the spinnaker on Alien without a pole, using a
spinnaker-guy, which is much like the Tacker. This setup is for a beam reach
and not quite right for running dead downwind.
My question is on mainsail trim. Sailing with the mainsail trimmed "ideally"
seems to block the spinnaker to some degree. I've been told that overtrimming
the main a bit is best, but I see pics that dispute this.
Anyone have experience/ideas for this setup?
Obviously, rigging the pole is best, but it can be a drag when Suzanne and I
sail alone.

The sail in your pic looked more like a gennaker or some kind of reaching chute
than a spinnaker. The tacker, if I understand it correctly, replaces the pole
and attaches to the spin's tack and keeps it at the headstay. This is like
having the pole all the way forward, which would be appropriate if you were
sailing hotter (ie, higher). In that case, you want to trim the main and it
should not be blanketing the chute. You were probably just experiencing too
light winds and chop. Where is the guy led with that sort of contraption?

Spinnaker question
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| Obviously, rigging the pole is best, but it can be a drag when Suzanne and
I
| sail alone.

I can't see that since I sail solo a lot and have no problem setting a
whisker pole by myself. With 2 persons it's a breeze.... so to speak. Poles
are for light airs only.

CM

Spinnaker question
 

In that case, you want to trim the main and it
should not be blanketing the chute. You were probably just experiencing too
light winds and chop. Where is the guy led with that sort of contraption?

The guy is led normally back to the stern..we did have "00" air last night and
the wake/chop made filling the spin brief at best.
Guess we'll try again with more air.

RB

Spinnaker question
 

I can't see that since I sail solo a lot and have no problem setting a
whisker pole by myself.

Well...of course we can...but going poleless is easier at times and another
thing to try.

RB

Spinnaker question
 

The guy is led normally back to the stern.

If the tack is close to the headstay, it seems the guy would rub on the
shrouds. Do you lead it inside with the tacker on? This would make gybing a
pain.

Spinnaker question
 

Well, you have lots of experience with that. And, apparently,
Susie does also.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
I can't see that since I sail solo a lot and have no problem setting a
whisker pole by myself.

Well...of course we can...but going poleless is easier at times and
another
thing to try.

RB

Spinnaker question
 

If the tack is close to the headstay, it seems the guy would rub on the
shrouds. Do you lead it inside with the tacker on? This would make gybing a
pain.

I think the idea behind the tacker or spin-guy is for long hours on a broad
reach. To gybe, I think you'd have to spill completely to get it around. It
would be a nice run down the sound at certain times of the season, for
instance. I really haven't played with the setup at all. Last night we were
just trying to fill the bloody thing. My friend on board is a J24 racer and she
was having a rough time figuring out the best mainsail trim, but ultimately the
wind wasn't there to do much.
Instructions for the gybe on this type of setup can be seen here..
http://members.aol.com/wkndrbag/Form...structions.htm

RB

Spinnaker question
 

Well, you have lots of experience with that. And, apparently,
Susie does also.


Actually, Susie has a pole that she occasionally ties on when there's
not enough wind.

BB

Wind? Hmmm

Spinnaker question
 

"SkitchNYC" wrote in message

The guy is led normally back to the stern.

If the tack is close to the headstay, it seems the guy would rub on the
shrouds.

If I understand your question, you may be confusing a tack downhaul line
with a guy. With a Tacker in place, there essentially is no guy. Rather, a
line from the tack of the chute keeps the Tacker/tack from rising up the
forestay. It feeds through a block at the base of the forestay chainplate
and leads aft to the cockpit. Gybing the chute requires releasing the sheet
and allowing the chute to gybe outboard of the forestay while bringing the
sheet around the forestay manually. Or if the air is light enough, one
could walk the sheet and sail inboard of the forestay to "gybe." The latter
will wrap the chute halyard around the forestay, though. I've got double
sheets on my spinnaker, so I release the old leeward sheet and allow the
sail to gybe outboard of the forestay while sheeting in on the new sheet.
Takes lightweight line, however, or the weight of the sheets will keep the
sail from flying in light air.

'Zat help?

XR

Spinnaker question
 

wrote in message

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 08:19:53 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Well, you have lots of experience with that. And, apparently,
Susie does also.


Actually, Susie has a pole that she occasionally ties on when there's
not enough wind.

Bobby? Not enough wind? Hmm.

XR

Spinnaker question
 

If I understand your question, you may be confusing a tack downhaul line
with a guy. With a Tacker in place, there essentially is no guy.

No confusion. Just never seen or used the thing.

Rather, a
line from the tack of the chute keeps the Tacker/tack from rising up the
forestay. It feeds through a block at the base of the forestay chainplate
and leads aft to the cockpit. Gybing the chute requires releasing the sheet
and allowing the chute to gybe outboard of the forestay while bringing the
sheet around the forestay manually. Or if the air is light enough, one
could walk the sheet and sail inboard of the forestay to "gybe." The latter
will wrap the chute halyard around the forestay, though. I've got double
sheets on my spinnaker, so I release the old leeward sheet and allow the
sail to gybe outboard of the forestay while sheeting in on the new sheet.

Now, I am confused. All this sounds like it applies to an assy and not a
symmetrical spin. I thought these tacker things were for symmetrical
spinnakers, because assys already work like a tacker - i.e., sail generally
secured to bow of boat. Some fly assys with poles, but that defeats the
purpose for cruisers. I thought the tacker was to allow you to fly a
symetrical spinnaker on a reach without the pole. If you have an assymetrical
spinnaker, you probably have a tack arrangment and why would you need a jury
rig thing like a Tacker?

Spinnaker question
 

"SkitchNYC" wrote in message
...
Now, I am confused. All this sounds like it applies to an assy and not a
symmetrical spin. I thought these tacker things were for symmetrical
spinnakers, because assys already work like a tacker - i.e., sail
generally
secured to bow of boat. Some fly assys with poles, but that defeats the
purpose for cruisers. I thought the tacker was to allow you to fly a
symetrical spinnaker on a reach without the pole. If you have an
assymetrical
spinnaker, you probably have a tack arrangment and why would you need a
jury
rig thing like a Tacker?

Did you see the photos of the thing?

It allows the traditional spinaker to be flown with the tack attached to the
forestay.

I think that it is aimed at people who have a normal spinaker, but who
don't have an asymmetric. A spinaker is a bit more macho than a cruising
chute, so I think that more people(me included) own a spinaker than an
assymetric.




I'd like to see some evidence that it wouldn't damage the forestay or the
furled jenny when a gust hits. Otherwise, it looks like a good idea.



Regards


Donal
--

Spinnaker question
 

Now, I am confused. All this sounds like it applies to an assy and not a
symmetrical spin. I thought these tacker things were for symmetrical
spinnakers, because assys already work like a tacker - i.e., sail
generally
secured to bow of boat. Some fly assys with poles, but that defeats the
purpose for cruisers. I thought the tacker was to allow you to fly a
symetrical spinnaker on a reach without the pole. If you have an
assymetrical
spinnaker, you probably have a tack arrangment and why would you need a
jury
rig thing like a Tacker?

Did you see the photos of the thing?

No, but I've heard of it.

It allows the traditional spinaker to be flown with the tack attached to the
forestay.

That's what I thought, but XR 750 dsecribed its use with an assymetrical spin
which struck me as odd.

I think that it is aimed at people who have a normal spinaker, but who
don't have an asymmetric. A spinaker is a bit more macho than a cruising
chute, so I think that more people(me included) own a spinaker than an
assymetric.

I agree, although I wish I had an assy instead of a symetrical spinnaker.

I'd like to see some evidence that it wouldn't damage the forestay or the
furled jenny when a gust hits. Otherwise, it looks like a good idea.

I think that is the main rap on the thing.

Spinnaker question
 

Hey Nutsy,
Very, very long!

Ole Thom here. I hope this isn't a troll. I'm assuming it isn't.

First: Let's make sure of our terms..
I'm not sure what you're using on your forestay? It sounds very much
like a "TACKER"

2nd: If "Derelict" is rigged to fly a Standard Spinnaker we have to
make sure. If so Equip. the front of your mast will probably have an
adjustable spinnaker pole eye clip to adjust the height of the pole ( To
keep it horizontal) There should be two lines rigged on the front of
the mast. One to support the spinnaker pole to keep the front end from
drooping below the horizontal and a second line, rigged below the pole
to keep the pole from rising. I know them as Spinn. Lifts and Spinn
downhauls (that's what they do, they may have other names. If you have
them, we'll talk about them later
( I hope this isn't a troll)

3rd; The Spinnaker (If a standard) should have three (3) corners. A head
and two corners the same distance from the head and at the foot of the
sail. They are alternately connected as Guy and Sheet. The Guy is
attached to the pole end and a line comes back to the cockpit (Outboard
of all shroud, pulpits. lifelines etc. The Sheet is set flying free with
only a sheet line connected and led thru a block, usually located near
the stern. The Guy line is run thru a similiar Block on the opposite
side of the cockpit. On a Std Spinn the guy and the clew should be at
the same hight

4th; Let's trim the Std Chute. The Guy is used to pull the chute out
from under the shadow of the main so the pole has the be mount on the
windward side of the forestay. You can pull the Spinn around until the
leading edge starts to fold in. If it is rigged right it should fold the
full lenght of the leading edge. Then ease the guy until the leading
edge is drawing again. If the edge doesn't brake clean, top to bottom,
adjust the hight of the pole with the lift and downhaul. (Tighter if top
brakes to early.

There are two types of Gybes for the std Spinn: Dip Pole and an End for
End. If yu want me to go thru them E-mail me.
I sure as hell hope you're not trolling

Now: Now Assy Spinn
1st: I'm not sure that you were using the Guy hooked to the tack. You
could have but it should be run thru a block mounted at the foot of
forestay. The working end goes to the tack of "TACKER" ( It seems like
the Spinn Guy is about the same thing
I carry my Assy in a sleeve but you'll have
three corner;
A clew, aguy and the head. Hook the Spinnaker Halyard to the head and
the sheets to the clew. ( I use a 3/8" nylon line, 120 ft long) I double
it in half, push the loop thru the clew eye, run the two looe end thru
the loop that is formed and draw them tight. This gives me two sheets
which I run outside EVERYTHING, one on each side of the boat.

2nd; Furl the head sail. Draw the headsail sheets down to the drum and
secure them there (I use a bungy cord). Snap on the Tracker, steer
downwind enough to create a wind shadow in the area you are working. I
like to set the tack at about "Balls level" Susy will need to think of
something else. Raise the sail with Spinn Halyard, Set working sheet and
sail out of the shadow. Hang on 'cause she should take off. It will be
fast but she is ok. Trim it as you would the Std. Let out on the sheet
until you get the leading edge folding in.( that line you said was the
Guy) That can be used rise or lower the sail to control the leading
edge.

Note; Don't ever turn up wind if you feel in trouble. It is not a
Standard Head Sail. Head downwind to blanket the sail and you can lower
with ease

2nd note; If you are blanketing the sail it probably means your heading
is to low
Corrections; 1; Ease the down haul (on a free flying sail you can
sometimes get the Assy above the shadow.
2: Sail a higher course
3: If you are looking to hold a course lower than you can maintain, Gybe
the Spinn Over and pole out the clew. Sail wing and wing

Point to Remember: If you feel you're in trouble; DON'T TURN INTO THE
WIND! Turn down wind to shadow the Spinnaker

By the way; Another way to avoid the shadow is the Bowsprit. I set one
with my boat by using the spinnaker pole.run out on the anchor roller
with a clamp ( Pin thru two drills holes in the roller guides )
and a ring screwed to the forward hatch slide

If you want more info e-mail me

OT

Spinnaker question
 

I'll take my Tri-Radial, 3/4 oz .....over that Assy...... any day.

Experience allows the option of a non poled, goose winged, downwind run.....
which is almost as fast as a chute.
Double hank with a 170 and a 110 jib, drop the main and voila..... no helm
needed.

CM

Spinnaker question
 

My question is on mainsail trim. Sailing with the mainsail trimmed "ideally"
seems to block the spinnaker to some degree.

That's why you use the pole.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

Spinnaker question
 

Experience allows the option of a non poled, goose winged, downwind run.....
which is almost as fast as a chute.

No way.


S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

Spinnaker question
 

RB,

An Assy And a STD spinnakers are two different sails. There is nothing
Macho about either one.

A Std chute has less area than the Assy
but is fuller up high and can sail effectively farther downwind. In some
why it is easier to control and manover due to the way it is rigged.
That extra rigging just about doubles the price over the Assy, which
only requires a halyard. It cannot go as deep down wind but on a broad
reach it will leave the Std sucking wind.

If you have both you should make polars for both.

An Assy is easier to tack and if sailed correctly can travel farther and
faster and reach the downwind mark ahead of the Std. SOMETIMES!!! That
is why Polar are important.

I like my Assy best. It is a kick in the ass sail to play around with.
It is FAST! It makes your blood pump faster but to be honest I've been
probably whipped more times than not by STD Spinn on down wind legs.
Since I normally race in the cruising class (NO FLYING SAIL) I can't use
it around the bouys but on the long distance I move up a class and I can
get a long reach I can make a lot of the speed freak pretty nervuos

RB, if you don't have a Assy Chute, don't even screw with the bowsprit.
That will force you to carry your sail to low. A Std Chute should should
be flown with the pole about shoulder high. You should tack going
downwind. Maybe about 170 degrees to 190 degrees. You'll probably be in
a world where a Assy can't live

Good nite,
Ole Thom

Spinnaker question
 

RB,

An Assy And a STD spinnakers are two different sails. There is nothing
Macho about either one.

A Std chute has less area than the Assy
but is fuller up high and can sail effectively farther downwind. In some
why it is easier to control and manover due to the way it is rigged.
That extra rigging just about doubles the price over the Assy, which
only requires a halyard. It cannot go as deep down wind but on a broad
reach it will leave the Std sucking wind.

If you have both you should make polars for both.

An Assy is easier to tack and if sailed correctly can travel farther and
faster and reach the downwind mark ahead of the Std. SOMETIMES!!! That
is why Polar are important.

I like my Assy best. It is a kick in the ass sail to play around with.
It is FAST! It makes your blood pump faster but to be honest I've been
probably whipped more times than not by STD Spinn on down wind legs.
Since I normally race in the cruising class (NO FLYING SAIL) I can't use
it around the bouys but on the long distance I move up a class and I can
get a long reach I can make a lot of the speed freak pretty nervuos

RB, if you don't have a Assy Chute, don't even screw with the bowsprit.
That will force you to carry your sail to low. A Std Chute should should
be flown with the pole about shoulder high. You should tack going
downwind. Maybe about 170 degrees to 190 degrees. You'll probably be in
a world where a Assy can't live

Good nite,
Ole Thom

Spinnaker question
 

Geez, Bob. You said you were going sailing tonight.

Actually I said I was going fishing tonight. But I like how you "dissapear" for
1/2 hour then return with claims you went sailing.
Don't forget to post some old pics!

RB

Spinnaker question
 

Thanks for all of the spinnaker feedback.
Made even better because it highlights how people like BB and are full time
trollers, unable to break form and talk sailing.

RB

Spinnaker question
 

I guess among your list of undeveloped skills is "how to read and
understand a clock". I left work at 3 pm,

Tell it to to someone who cares, liar.
Look at the header. It's a "sailing" thread to which you've added nothing.

RB

Spinnaker question
 

Got any pics of the fish you caught?

We didn't fish. Just watched Spiderman 2.


RB

Spinnaker question
 

That's the committee boat on the
right,

Looks like your'e over the layline, on the slow side of the course, and well
behind. g

Spinnaker question
 

What's all that fuzzy stuff around the sun and all?

Looks like a bad pic and worse camera. Why would anyone ask you to take such
poor photos?
What a story!

RB

Spinnaker question
 

http://binarybill.tripod.com/062503/P6250099a.jpg

So let's see...you motored "like mad" but couldn't get close enough to these
boats (your friends?) for a good pic?
Doesn't look like enough wind to have them outrun you...good job on the camera,
boy!

RB

Spinnaker question
 

Thought i might join in briefly. An asymmetrical is god send to those who
sail short handed, single watchsting, or the single handers. It does the
job of the spinnaker but not quite as well but handles like a normal
headsail but not quite as well. On the last boat I had inherited double
forestays. To get real macho I ran two baloon type sails at once. One was
the asymmetrical and the other was a four hank drifter meant for quite
another purpose but it worked. Onthat one I clipped on a light pole that
didn't require the support of a halyard. In down wind light airs it was
quite effective as long as you quartered off about 20 degrees or a bit more.
It was also effective at making other people (and sailors) gawk when they
realized a single hander was running two chutes at once. Of of course the
wildy different color patterns of each added hugely to the effect! I think
I would have to come down on the side of the racers for a full baloon with
all the poles and trimmings for racing but for the five knot an hour is
plenty cruising crowd the asymmetrical is certainly the best choice.

Now having started that one up again I shall go to Raffles.

Michael


wrote in message
...
On 25 Jun 2003 22:19:29 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:

I think that it is aimed at people who have a normal spinaker, but who
don't have an asymmetric. A spinaker is a bit more macho than a cruising
chute, so I think that more people(me included) own a spinaker than an
assymetric.

I don't have the asymetrical chute, BTW. I'll try flying the thing over
the
next few days and take some pics of the dismasting! I have the
Spinnaker-Guy
setup and also something very much like it from UK, which is what I used
yesterday. In the brief moments when we had 2-3 knots, it got the boat
moving
when my heavy genoa would have hung like a sheet of drywall.

RB

Geez, Bob. You said you were going sailing tonight. I guess you forgot and
accidentally posted when you said you'd be sailing. We went out at 5, and
we
just got home. I took some pics of the racers off of East Haven near the
finish
line (cow & calf on the charts) at around 8:10. Sorry to hear that the
excellent
sailing weather scared you off AGAIN!

BB

Spinnaker question
 

S-L-A-M-!!!!!!!


Nice Photos..... a bit of haze makes for good photographs

CM


wrote in message
...
| On 26 Jun 2003 15:01:58 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:
|
| It was? There was some haze,
|
| Haze and air quality were terrible. Visibility was listed as poor.
| I guess you sailed in between the haze. I liked the story about motoring
like
| mad to take pics of friends boats, yet you're a 1/4 of a mile away and
the
| photo sucks.
| Good effort, but you should have at least said you were sailing. Got any
pics
| that actually show you're on a boat?
|
| RB
|
| http://binarybill.tripod.com
|
| BB

Spinnaker question
 

Yes Donal,

I believe you are but for sure there are enough strings to pull on a Stb
Spinn.

However, I like to set the Spinn up behind the main (Shadow) then pull
it out into the trim position. You are correct about the pole 90 Deg to
the wind. On a downwind run you will be OK. BUT remember the question
was about over trimming the Main when setting on a Reach. If the Main is
blanketing any part of the Spinn the Sheet and Clew will be the effected
area. I would prefer to cheat a bit on the guy and ease the spinn sheet
than over trim the main. That is if I had to maintain a course heading.

You could be correct. You could maybe free the spinn by letting out on
the sheet

The way Nutsy was flying the Std Spinn without the pole, your guess is
as good as mine on what was out of trim. My first guess was that it was
set to low but then I got to thinking, he was hooked to the fore stay
and if he moved it up he would be burying the clew farther into the
shadow of the main!? When he tries it again , I think he should try
carrying it above shoulder hight. I'm no expert on poless Std Chutes but
I know they are shorter than the Assy and need the Tacks higher to get
the proper shape.

Your turn. You make the call for the poless trim?

Ole Thom

Spinnaker question
 

Dear Friends,

I just went back and read what I wrote about trimming the td Chute. As
Donal pointed out, screwed up. Badly. The guy should position the Spinn
pole ninety degress to the wind. The trimming should be done with the
Sheet, as in all head sails.

Thanks Donal

Ole Thom

Spinnaker question
 

"Thomas Stewart" wrote in message
...
Dear Friends,

I just went back and read what I wrote about trimming the td Chute. As
Donal pointed out, screwed up. Badly. The guy should position the Spinn
pole ninety degress to the wind. The trimming should be done with the
Sheet, as in all head sails.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.


Once again, you demonstrate why you are the "father of the group". I may
argue with you about politics, but I won't ever argue with you about
sailing, or the sea.


Regards


Donal
--

this message is for Bobsprit

In the early 60s, I crewed and later skippered a 67' ketch (Raffles Light) owned, at the time, by Clarence H. Thayer (Sr VP of Sun Oil). I joined the crew in the Canaries and we sailed to the Caribbean eventually mooring in the US Virgin Islands. In doing a Google Search I noticed that in 2004 you had posted information referencing Raffles Light. I was supposed to sail her to Chesapeake Bay but a motorcycle accident rendered me "out of my commission". As far as I know "Raffles" did eventually finds its way to continental USA. Mr. Thayer died many years ago and, nearly four decades later I am now trying to track down the boat's whereabouts and owner.

I am wondering if you (or anyone else reading this thread) might have a link to the current owner is and/or the current home of this beautiful vessel.

Thanks in advance.

JohnnyCanuck (in Canada)