"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
You'd have to be more specific about which conversation that was. I
said
from
the beginning that I couldn't endorse Joe's actions, especially since
I've
only
briefly seen the HSC, 35 years ago at that.

Ok.
How, then, do you explain the fact that your initial contribution to the
conversation was to question my observation that a "radar alone" lookout
was
a breach of the CollRegs?


The fact that the visibility is near zero does not preclude movement. I
wasn't
agreeing with Joe; I simply did not wish to comment on the actions of a
professional in an environment that I'm not familiar with.

Yet, you are very willing to comment on the actions of an amateur? Why is
that?



I was questioning Joe's assertion that he was behaving correctly by
travelling at 25 kts under radar alone. I took exception when you
questioned me - mainly because you usually post sensible stuff.

I was merely questioning the absolute nature of your comment. The fact
that
movement is permitted in conditions where radar is required means that
"safe
speed" is not an absolute.

I've never disputed this. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that I think
that shipping may travel at speeds that do not allow them to comply with the
CollRegs. OTOH, you have consistently demanded that I should explain why a
kayak should be in a TSS at all. I accept that the ships need some
latitude, but I also would extend the same degree of latitude to *all* users
of the sea.


Your position is quite different. You are happy to extend *enormous*
lattitude to commercial vessels, and yet you question whether a kayak has
any "business" to be in a shipping lane.

In your opinion, the commercial vessel may travel at a speed that the
CollRegs prohibit, and a kayak would have to prove that he "had business"
being there.

You are using double standards.




I know that you acknowledged that a proper lookout should be maintained,
but you still seemed to find my position more offensive than Joe's.


Sorry, I tend not to be too interested in the obvious.

Besides, you were willing to call him a "menace" without ever witnessing
what he
was talking about - I'm not willing to do that.

He's doing 25 kts in thick fog, in a busy waterway. He isn't keeping a
proper lookout. He is in blatant breach of the CollRegs. He *is* a menace.




Quite frankly, I was surprised (to put it mildly).


25 knots would seem excessive if
there is any chance of other traffic, but the canal he was talking
about
is
largely closed to recreational boating. I also wonder if 25 knots is
considered a "safe speed" offshore where the chances of encountering a
small
boat not visible on radar is rather slim.

It really depends on what "slim" means. I happily accept that Peter
can
whizz about at any speed he fancies in the depths of the Antartic.
However,
the English Channel is a completely different place.

IIRC, there is a high speed ferry that does (or did?) the Channel
crossing.
Perhaps you can tell us what speed they slow to in thick fog. I wouldn't
be
surprised if the Bar Harbor Fast Cat does over 30 knots in the middle of
the Bay
of Fundy.


You're correct. The P&O Condor service is a high speed (35 kts+) service.

I believe that they slow down in fog, to about 20 kts. However, I would
stress the word "believe". I really do not know where that impression comes
from. I usually see the Condor on crossings to Cherbourg(three times). I
would have been fairly close to it on both my crossings in fog. I suspect
that I saw it on one of the foggy trips, but I cannot be certain.





I did take exception to Joe's claim that the helmsman, who is using
radar
to
steer the boat, can also serve as the visual lookout.

If you look back, you will find that you took greater exception to my
claim
that Joe was breaking the rules. You didn't question Joe, - you
questioned
me.

I only took exception to treating the rule as an absolute.

I take the lookout rule as an absolute, and you take exception.
You take torturous leaps of logic to say that a kayak has no business in a
TSS.

Can't you see that you are biased?

The rules are explicit about the requirements for a safe lookout.
The rules do not explicitely prohibit a kayak from traversing a TSS.

The concepts of
"safe speed" and "proper lookout" are decided by the courts. I'm not
willing to
pass judgment on a professional's action several thousand miles away from
where
I sail.

I would really be interested to see a link to a case where a court has
overturned the CollRegs on the Lookout Rules. I really cannot believe that
this has happened.




This is certainly frowned
upon on large ships, and while it is sometimes done on small boats, I
have
trouble seeing how this actually works. As I said early on in this
thread,
thick fog is an "all hands on deck" situation on my boat.


... and mine!


mine too.




We are getting very close to agreement. Maybe, it will all end happily!



Regards


Donal
--