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Resin Injection into soft wood



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 10th 05, 12:07 PM
Ed Edelenbos
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Default Resin Injection into soft wood

"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:11:19 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote:

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08...


"Ed Edelenbos" wrote

Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known
several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for
their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular
epoxy
resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a
couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place.


Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company
manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex
rentals,
many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore
rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee
insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it
works
fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor
planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending.

Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much
lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant.
Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will
not be up to the task.

--
Glenn Ashmore


Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what
works
for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is
nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type.


Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood
regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years
of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration.

We'll wait right here.


Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless
the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up
to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs
that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various
places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest
weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous.
Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any
experience on the water?

Ed


Ads
  #12  
Old October 10th 05, 01:43 PM
DSK
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Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote
Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known
several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for
their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy
resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a
couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place.



It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive
workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress
it's put under.

From an engineering standpoint, Glenn's comments are 100% accurate.
Epoxy saturation restores much of the strength in compression of the
original wood, some of the shear strangth, and very littl of the
strength in tension (which is wood's strongest point).



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting


Note- in the original part... it does little or nothing to stop leaks
and prevent further rot around the margins of the saturated area!

.... but it has much lower
tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless
the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up
to the task.


This correspnds exactly with my experience. I've seen mooring cleats
pull up out of rot-doctored decks which were hard as a rock from the epoxy.

When fresh out of the military and needing something to do, a friend and
I "restored" (or butchered, depending on who you talk to) an old classic
racing yacht. The planking was sound but the structure and deck was
spongy. We built a 6 point cradle with shaped frames, epoxy saturated
much of the interior structure, and laid up an internal truss mimicking
the original ribs & floors with some diagonals added. The boat had no
stiffness or strength in the hull until we added fiberglass cloth along
the truss members. After that, it was very strong & we raced the heck
out of it.

A few classic boat purists were upset at what we'd done, two or three
even threatened us. But the boat would have become a mulch pile and we
did this work in about 3 months instead of seven years to rebuild it the
"right" way.

YMMV

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

  #13  
Old October 10th 05, 03:16 PM
William R. Watt
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Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood


P.C. Ford ) writes:

Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood
regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years
of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration.

We'll wait right here.


PC Ford has 30 years of experience with resins?
Shocking! Is nothing sacred?


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
  #14  
Old October 10th 05, 04:00 PM
[email protected]
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Default Resin Injection into soft wood

I have been reading about a process of restoring rotten wood by soaking
resin into the wood making it as good as new or better.


I am not an expert in this area. I just read a publication from West
System about making minor and major repairs on fiberglass boats. It
mentioned about methods of restoring wooden elements in a fiberglass
boat. Their suggestion is to warm the wooden part and the mixed epoxy
to allow the epoxy to flow better and deep into the wooden element.

Nevertheless, they still recommend people to replace the wooden element
instead of using epoxy to "fix" it under some situations (I don't
remember what the situations are; I "guess" something like too many
areas need to be repaired or the area is a critical structural
element). You may want to get a copy of that publication for $3 (I
bought mine from West Marine) to see what they have recommended. West
System makes money by selling epoxy. If they ask people to replace the
wood (under some situations) instead of using their products, I would
think that they are onto something.

Jay Chan

  #15  
Old October 10th 05, 05:01 PM
[email protected]
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Default Resin Injection into soft wood

Hi

It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece
glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is
better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what
it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that
even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I
think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather
than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot
repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a
few standard patches that fit with the router template.
Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat.

  #16  
Old October 10th 05, 09:36 PM
Ed Edelenbos
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Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

"DSK" wrote in message
...
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote
Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known
several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for
their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy
resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a
couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place.



It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive
workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress
it's put under.


This is exactly what I said... it depends on the task. For the statement
"Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will
not be up to the task." to be made, it assumes that either it is unsuitable
for ANY task, or that ALL tasks are the same. Neither of these assumptions
are correct.

I'll stand by what I said... it is a rediculous assertion.

Ed


  #17  
Old October 10th 05, 11:03 PM
P.C. Ford
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:07:49 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote:

"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:11:19 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote:

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08...


"Ed Edelenbos" wrote

Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known
several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for
their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular
epoxy
resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a
couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place.


Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company
manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex
rentals,
many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore
rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee
insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it
works
fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor
planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending.

Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much
lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant.
Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will
not be up to the task.

--
Glenn Ashmore

Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what
works
for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is
nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type.


Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood
regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years
of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration.

We'll wait right here.


Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless
the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up
to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs
that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various
places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest
weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous.
Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any
experience on the water?


Why yes I do. On sail and power. Do you have any experience restoring
boats?

You have swallowed boatshow handout propaganda whole. That's "stupid"
and "rediculous".....to use your words.
  #18  
Old October 10th 05, 11:11 PM
Ed Edelenbos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:07:49 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote:


Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement
"Unless
the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be
up
to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs
that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in
various
places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest
weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous.
Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any
experience on the water?


Why yes I do. On sail and power. Do you have any experience restoring
boats?


Why yes I do. Both sail and power. Woodworking and fiberglass. Using hand
tools and power tools. If you count my dads boats that were the first I
worked on, it has been over 40 years. Do I get a prize or something?


You have swallowed boatshow handout propaganda whole. That's "stupid"
and "rediculous".....to use your words.


Ok... explain how I have done so. I haven't been to a boatshow in over 15
years. I'm talking real boats and real repairs. On Chesapeake Bay work
boats, no less. Boats that go out at least 300 days a year.

To say that a given repair method (especially the one being discussed) is
"not up to the task" is utter bull****. It implies that a given method is
not suited for any task. Do you believe this? Who is being rediculous? It
ain't me.

Ed


  #19  
Old October 10th 05, 11:12 PM
Glenn Ashmore
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Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

And I stand by what I said. I doubt that there is anyone on this newsgroup
working with timbers and anyone relying on soaking a rotten frame or
stringer with Rot Doctor is asking for trouble. The only way they will get
the same strength is to replace it, sister it or glass it after stabilizing
it.

A sound piece of clear fir has a tensile strength of about 12,600 PSI.
CPES, the most commercially available epoxy wood stabilizer, has a tensile
strength of around 4,500 PSI and, for fairly obvious reasons, there is no
ANSI standard tensile strength of rotten wood. Even Rot Doctor recommends
glass reinforcement for members subject to tension or shear.

Rot also occurs primarily at the joint with another member. On an interior
member like a frame or stringer that is usually the outboard side which is
normally subject to the greatest tension. Unless the tensile strength is
restored in one way or another the treated member will be a weak point and
risks becoming the starting point for failure.


Please pardon a short rant:
I have been participating in this news group for 7 years and in that time
have seen people espousing everything from antifreeze to aspirin to cure rot
and curtain liner to wheat flour to save a few pennies on GRP lay-ups. It
irritates me no end to hear people insisting on short cuts and off the wall
ways to save a few bucks and screw up a job.

I would guess that about half the participants in this news group are first
time boat builders/restorers looking for advice. We have succeeded in
chasing off all the pros so it is up to those of us with a little experience
to guide them. That is a responsibility that should not be taken lightly.
End rant:

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote in message
...
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote
Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known
several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for
their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy
resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a
couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place.


It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive
workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress
it's put under.


This is exactly what I said... it depends on the task. For the statement
"Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will
not be up to the task." to be made, it assumes that either it is
unsuitable for ANY task, or that ALL tasks are the same. Neither of these
assumptions are correct.

I'll stand by what I said... it is a rediculous assertion.

Ed




  #20  
Old October 10th 05, 11:20 PM
Ed Edelenbos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:GGB2f.306$Kp4.137@lakeread08...
. We have succeeded in chasing off all the pros End rant:


With pointless little self serving rants I assume.

Ed



 




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