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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)

On May 17 Phantman wrote:
Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs lol! I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre".


On Sat, 17 May 08, Jay wrote:
I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not
squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual.


I wasn't quoting directly, I was combining what it stated in two
separate paragraphs.

Paragraph 1. "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from
the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. Water is not normally
discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating
properly"

Paragraph 2.."CAUTION Never operate your outboard
motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or
severe damage can result".

First it says water isn't always discharged, that's normal, then it
tells you to not operate your motor "when there is no water coming out
of the pilot holes". That looks like a conflict to me. You may be
right that they may mean "in gear" or whatever, but it's still
ambiguous to say the least.

The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you
supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask
the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole
"water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's
supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm
saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with
your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole
stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats?

I'm not knockin' your motor. Suzuki has a good reputation. But there's
something here that makes no sense to me and I'm just trying to
understand what it is.

I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that
Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that
they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. I
agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do
simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are
necessarily in error.


I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything bizarre about calling
them Pilot holes.

Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in
neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the
functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the
cooling system?


Possibly. But I think you may have missed my point. Probably my fault
for not communicating clearly and I hope I haven't muddied the water
even more with what I've tried to get across here.

Rick
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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)

On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall"
wrote:

I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was
available.



Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke
outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the
piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the
cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted
mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder
four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston
at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards
from corrosion causing moisture.


It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested
some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel
filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that
kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to
mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy.

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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)

On Sat, 17 May 2008 22:13:49 -0500, lid wrote:



The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you
supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask
the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole
"water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's
supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm
saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with
your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole
stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats?

Not knowing anything about OB cooling systems, a couple questions.
1. If the OB has a thermostat, can it be fully closed?
2. With the OB's you are familiar with, can the engine overheat even
when the pee hole has a stream?
I'm thinking Jay's new OB is designed to discharge all cooling water
through the thermostat, and if it's shut, no stream.
Electronic controls might make that a good way to manage engine
efficiency. It might also have an overheat shutdown.
Though I know OB owners basically worship that peehole stream as the
Holy Grail of engine heat control, it may not so important with this
small engine.
Yeah, I know,
"Paragraph 2.."CAUTION Never operate your outboard
motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or
severe damage can result".

So it is contradictory. Might have cribbed that from the manual of a
bigger engine. In any case bad manual writing.
And if it doesn't shut down automatically when overheated, a bit
of a dangerous system.

--Vic
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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)

On May 17, 6:42*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 17 May 2008 18:31:51 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote:
On May 17, 3:02*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 17 May 2008 13:45:22 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote:
On May 17, 8:40*am, wrote:


Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting..... unless severe damage occurs lol! *I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre".


I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not
squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual.


I think I would call a Suzuki mechanic (not a salesman) and get an explanation that makes sense.. And pin him down if necessary. That owners manual is as ambiguous as any I've heard about.


I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that
Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that
they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. *I
agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do
simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are
necessarily in error.


The manual states, "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from
the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. *Water is not normally
discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating
properly. *However, cooling system operation can be confirmed as
follows:


1---Place the shift selector lever in the NEUTRAL position with the
motor idling.
2---Increase and decrease the engine speed five or six times in
succession by opening and closing the throttle smoothly and without
stopping in any one throttle position.
3---If water is discharged from the pilot water holes under this
operating condition, the cooling system is working properly. *If
water
is not discharged, stop the engine as soon as possible and consult
your authorized Suzuki Marine dealer."


It then states: *CAUTION *Never OPERATE (perhaps they are referring to
having the motor in GEAR, not NEUTRAL as stated above) your outboard
motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or
severe damage can
result. *Before setting off, be sure that emergency stop switch
operates properly.


Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in
neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the
functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the
cooling system?


-Jay


The purpose of a tell-tale, regardless of what you want to call it, is to be a
CONSTANT indicator that the water pump is working.


So it makes no difference in this particular Suzuki model, first
designed and manufactured in 2006, whether or not the engine is under
load (i.e. in gear as opposed to idling in neutral) as to the
necessity of the water pump squirting water out of the pilot holes?


If the tell tale doesn't always have water coming out of it when the engine is
running I would consider that a defect, and a serious one.



That is why ALL small outboards have them. If Suzuki has built an engine with a tell tale, pilot hole, or pee-hole that does not emit water under ALL operating conditions then the only answer is that they made a big mistake in their design, and should issue a recall to rectify it.


One needs to be careful about something being the "only answer" to
any problem. And most would agree that if this motor, which has
powered thousands of boats since 2006, had a serious manufacturing
defect the boating world would most certainly have heard all about it
by now, the recall would have already been in progress and this thread
concerning the matter would never have existed.

So therefore it's not at all possible that a new design created
just 18-24 months ago by Suzuki could have created a motor that is not
like ALL other motors and that no mistake at all was made?


If that's the way it was intended, I would return the motor for a refund. I'm
quite serious. Would you accept an automobile where they told you the oil
pressure warning light would only indicate a problem if you pulled over to the
side of the road and performed a "procedure" to make it work?


I'm not totally disagreeing with your logic; however, in any
unusual situation one perhaps should consider that all things, even in
the same category (i.e. outboard motors) do not work nor are
constructed in exactly the same manner and the analogy between a car's
oil pressure and an outboard's cooling system would only be applicable
if both motorsd/engines were built exactly the same way and one was
talking about exactly the same system within those same motors..

There is no good reason on earth why the cooling water indicator on an outboard should ever stop squirting while the motor is running. *That's a potentially fatal flaw.


Or perhaps there is no good reason I. you or several others can
think of at this time?


Nope. I have this right with no exceptions.


And you very well may be but until you have thoroughtly
disassembled a DF2.5 Suzuki outboard and/or attained a thorough
understanding of how that particular model is constructed and
functions and if it is or isn't different than most outboards, then
your statement is based upon your long-time valuable experience with
outboard motors but NOT THIS ONE so therefore you may or may not "have
this right."

Not trying to disagree with what you're saying but just keeping an
open mind. *I've found that I get used to things being a certain way
in other matters and sometimes have difficulty accepting they could be
done differently and be just as good, and not necessarily "wrong." *I
guess the best way to resolve this issue is perhaps to write American
Suzuki Marine, P.O. Box 1100, Brea, CA 92822 and give 'em the what
for...lol.


Tell you what. *I'll take the boat out soon, putt around the lake
and if no water squirts out all the time and the motor seizes up, I'll
feed it to Suzuki for lunch. *If I putt around the lake and water
doesn't squirt out all the time and nothing overheats and/or seizes
up, I guess then I'll know that they didn't screw up and they did
design a motor to operate exactly as stated in the manual and that all
other fears basesd on other outboard motors are therefore groundless.
Does that sound reasonable?


Only to a fool. Good luck, anyway. That's all you have on your side.


No, that's incorrect. I have a written signed warranty in my hand
and an owner's manual that states exactly what I've reproduced here
and a cousin who's a great attorney. I think I have far more that
luck and would not consider myself a fool. I mean what better way to
prove your point about the motor being manufactured defectively than
to operate it as per the owner's manual and seize it up? And if it
doesn't fail when operating it according to that owner's manual,
well....oooops!

-Jay
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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)

On May 17, 8:13*pm, wrote:
On May 17 Phantman wrote:

Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs lol! *I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre".

On Sat, 17 May 08, Jay wrote:
I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not
squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual.


I wasn't quoting directly, I was combining what it stated in two
separate paragraphs.

Paragraph 1. "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from
the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. *Water is not normally
discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating
properly"

Paragraph 2.."CAUTION *Never operate your outboard
motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or
severe damage can result".

First it says water isn't always discharged, that's normal, then it
tells you to not operate your motor "when there is no water coming out
of the pilot holes". That looks like a conflict to me. You may be
right that they may mean "in gear" or whatever, but it's still
ambiguous to say the least.

The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you
supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask
the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole
"water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's
supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm
saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with
your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole
stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats?

I'm not knockin' your motor. Suzuki has a good reputation. But there's
something here that makes no sense to me and I'm just trying to
understand what it is.

I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that
Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that
they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. *I
agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do
simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are
necessarily in error.


I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything bizarre about calling
them Pilot holes.

Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in
neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the
functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the
cooling system?


Possibly. But I think you may have missed my point. Probably my fault
for not communicating clearly and I hope I haven't muddied the water
even more with what I've tried to get across here.

Rick


Rick, I agree there is some ambiguity in the manual (as in many
manuals translated from another language into English) and I'd like to
get this cleared up ASAP. I fully understand the logic regarding the
need to see that water squirting out of the pilot holes at all times
the motor is running and still trying to ascertain why THIS motor,
according to it's poorly-written manual, doesn't find that necessary.

-Jay


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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)

On May 17, 9:04*pm, Vic Smith wrote:

Not knowing anything about OB cooling systems, a couple questions.
1. If the OB has a thermostat, can it be fully closed?
2. With the OB's you are familiar with, can the engine overheat even
when the pee hole has a stream?
I'm thinking Jay's new OB is designed to discharge all cooling water
through the thermostat, and if it's shut, no stream.
Electronic controls might make that a good way to manage engine
efficiency. *It might also have an overheat shutdown.
Though I know OB owners basically worship that peehole stream as the
Holy Grail of engine heat control, it may not so important with this
small engine. *


Yeah, I know,
"Paragraph 2.."CAUTION *Never operate your outboard
motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or
severe damage can result".

So it is contradictory. *Might have cribbed that from the manual of a
bigger engine. *In any case bad manual writing.
--Vic


Vic, thanks for a possible alternate explanation. I will ask my
Suzuki mechanic about that. And that bit about the "one-size-fits-
all" manual, I've run into that before where it seems like they got
the pages mixed up between two products and what you read doesn't even
apply to one. Thanks.

-Jay

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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)

On Sat, 17 May 2008 22:13:49 -0500, lid wrote:

On May 17 Phantman wrote:
Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs lol! I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre".


On Sat, 17 May 08, Jay wrote:
I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not
squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual.


I wasn't quoting directly, I was combining what it stated in two
separate paragraphs.

Paragraph 1. "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from
the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. Water is not normally
discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating
properly"

Paragraph 2.."CAUTION Never operate your outboard
motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or
severe damage can result".

First it says water isn't always discharged, that's normal, then it
tells you to not operate your motor "when there is no water coming out
of the pilot holes". That looks like a conflict to me. You may be
right that they may mean "in gear" or whatever, but it's still
ambiguous to say the least.

The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you
supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask
the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole
"water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's
supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm
saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with
your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole
stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats?

I'm not knockin' your motor. Suzuki has a good reputation. But there's
something here that makes no sense to me and I'm just trying to
understand what it is.

I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that
Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that
they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. I
agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do
simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are
necessarily in error.


I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything bizarre about calling
them Pilot holes.

Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in
neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the
functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the
cooling system?


Possibly. But I think you may have missed my point. Probably my fault
for not communicating clearly and I hope I haven't muddied the water
even more with what I've tried to get across here.

Rick


I think that you are interprets the manual incorrectly. From your
quote I believe it is intended to mean something like:

Water does not come out the hole at all speeds, i.e. no water at low
engine speed..

To check the water pump, put the shift in neutral (so you don't take
off and crash into something) and jazz the throttle, i.e., water comes
out the holes at the higher RPMS

If water doesn't come out the holes call the Dealer.

Try it in your bucket and see if that isn't the case, water comes out
the holes at higher RPMs.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)
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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)


wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B

wrote:

On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall"
wrote:

I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was
available.


Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke
outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the
piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the
cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted
mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder
four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the
piston
at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards
from corrosion causing moisture.


It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested
some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel
filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that
kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to
mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy.


I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush
system
where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it
without
the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a
river,
so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in
water
with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I
periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on
a rope
and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing
everywhere
including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway
disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never
been
confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats
caked
with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal
whether it's
really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on.



This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended.

It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water
dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even
faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine.
Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt
crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a
flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water
is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally
unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine.

And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is
easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and
rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact,
Jack!

Wilbur Hubbard


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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)

On Sun, 18 May 08, Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
I think that you are interprets the manual incorrectly.


Very possible.

From your
quote I believe it is intended to mean something like:


Water does not come out the hole at all speeds, i.e. no water at low
engine speed.


Right. Low speed would be an "other" speed ("intermittently
discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. Water
is not normally discharged at OTHER speeds) .

To check the water pump, put the shift in neutral (so you don't take
off and crash into something) and jazz the throttle, i.e., water comes
out the holes at the higher RPMS

If water doesn't come out the holes call the Dealer.

Try it in your bucket and see if that isn't the case, water comes out
the holes at higher RPMs.


I think we're interpreting the manual the same way except I'm seeing
it say "intermittent" at *medium* speeds and no discharge at "other"
(lower and/or higher?) speeds.
Your explanation may very well be correct though, as well as other
explanations posted. But I hope Suzuki has an explanation that's not
only less ambiguous but something that works to warn immediately of a
failed water pump.

I have a 1968 Evinrude (pre tell-tale model) and even that antique
gives you an immediate indication, with the amount of exhaust spray,
of the status of the water pump.

I'm thinking there's bound to be something they've left out of the
manual.

Rick
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Default The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B

wrote:

On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall"
wrote:

I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice
was
available.


Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke
outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep
the
piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the
cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some
diluted
mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single
cylinder
four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the
piston
at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the
innards
from corrosion causing moisture.

It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested
some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel
filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that
kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to
mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy.

I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the
flush
system
where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it
without
the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a
river,
so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile
in
water
with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I
periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away
on
a rope
and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing
everywhere
including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The
saltaway
disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have
never
been
confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system.
Thermostats
caked
with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal
whether it's
really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on.



This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended.

It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water
dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even
faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the
engine.
Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt
crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a
flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh
water
is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally
unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the
engine.

And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is
easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water
and
rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact,
Jack!

Wilbur Hubbard


Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard engine.
In
fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat.



I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are
aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out.
Muriatic acid will.

Wilbur Hubbard


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