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#31
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Resin Injection into soft wood
William R. Watt wrote:
It's not rec.boats.building.luxury It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint Part of expertise in any field is knowing where costs can be cut and still result in a useful product, knowing which shortcuts result in a sverely compromised final result, and knowing the operational limitations such work has... for an example of this, would you advocate that luan underlayment produces as strong & seaworthy a boat as Bruynzeel ply... and then expertise also consists of knowing what is truly the best way. Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ... and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original). Would that ease your socio-economic pain? DSK |
#32
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Resin Injection into soft wood
DSK ) writes: It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding materials. I chose not to. There are savers and there are consumers, and on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner. Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ... and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original). Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in others it isn't. Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious extravegance. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
#33
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Resin Injection into soft wood
Thanks for the many posts and discussion about this topic. As a result we
have chosen to remove and replace with new wood glued and screwed in place. We will save the wood restoration idea for planks and very small non stressful areas. Again....thanks for the many great ideas, Marshall "ahoy" wrote in message ... So does adding wood flour or sawdust as a thickener improve the bending strength for something like this? I've been wetting some hatch sliders out for saturation and then building up the gone places with flour/epoxy. It also seems to blend in better cosmetically. The splash boards look like too complicated a carpentry job for me. Oh, and please keep up the petty bickering,.. On 10 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700, wrote: Hi It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a few standard patches that fit with the router template. Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat. |
#34
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Resin Injection into soft wood
Flour doesn't help much, but long fibers do. If you want increased tensile strength, then use glass fiber ...but keep in mind that it has to be oriented fiber, oriented in the direction of the load. In other words, pick the right cloth. Once you've got the right cloth, then the epoxy's sheer strength will be the primary limiting factor. PC Ford is always cranky, but he's right a lot more often than he's wrong. Hmmm... trying to think of a remark that he made that was wrong. Can't think of any. Don't let the grumpy ol' man treatment get to you. But as he stated, epoxy is not a good wood replacement if tensile strength is what you are after. Epoxy is far superior however, if what you are looking for is compressive strength ...if comparing to wood's compression strength sideways to the grain. Not sure how they compare if comparing wood's compressive strength when compressed endways. Wood might be better. Certainly it'll be more forgiving if any deflection occurs. Brian D "ahoy" wrote in message ... So does adding wood flour or sawdust as a thickener improve the bending strength for something like this? I've been wetting some hatch sliders out for saturation and then building up the gone places with flour/epoxy. It also seems to blend in better cosmetically. The splash boards look like too complicated a carpentry job for me. Oh, and please keep up the petty bickering,.. On 10 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700, wrote: Hi It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a few standard patches that fit with the router template. Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat. |
#35
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Resin Injection into soft wood
William R. Watt wrote:
Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding materials. I chose not to. And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"? The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are. It may be that Glenn's expenditure on his boat represents a similar... or smaller... portion of his wealth than your boatbuilding with cheapo chain-store stuff represents of your overall wealth; if so this would make him less profligate with his money than you are. So why don't you chose the wiser course of not insulting others for their choices? ... There are savers and there are consumers, and on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner. I see, we've switched from rec.boats.profligate-spender to rec.boats.divine-retribution and if you're going to burn a few witches, why not wait until winter time when we need the heat anyway? Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious extravegance. So there you go... you're just as wasteful & frivolous as Glenn... better keep your head down, you may get struck by lightning any second now... DSK |
#36
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Resin Injection into soft wood
When you are taking on a long term large project you have to understand the
costs involved and set your priorities accordingly. If anyone is interested, with the purchase of the engine I just passed the $70K level. Of that the hull and deck represent about 18% and the epoxy about 1/3 of that. What remains is about $30K in spars, rigging, winches and sails. That will bring the cost of the epoxy down to about 4% of the total cost of the boat. When you are deciding on such a critical component as the resin that holds the whole thing together and is such a minor component of the total cost it really does not make much sense to go cheap. BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
#37
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Resin Injection into soft wood
The trade-off between cost and longevity is a perfectly reasonable one to
consider. My issue is with the safety of materials and methods which have not been tested and characterized. If there isn't either long experience or good engineering testing of a particular material, I won't use it where its failure would endanger the innocent occupants of the boat. Putting other souls in a situation where their safety depends on iffy materials, design or workmanship is irresponsible. Perhaps a Swiss bank account would be a good idea. "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... SNIP Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in others it isn't. Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious extravegance. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
#38
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Resin Injection into soft wood
DSK ) writes: And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"? The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are. I'm not bragging, I'm complaining. If you have $1 of net worth you are richer than almost half of the residents of the USA who are in debt for consumer purchases. All it requires to have savings at my somewhat advanced age is a bit of discipline. Stay in school, get a steady job, live withing your means, don't borrow. And build really cheap boats. A not-very-bright thing that is often seen on the Internet is making imaginary assumptions about anyone you don't know. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
#39
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Resin Injection into soft wood
"Glenn Ashmore" ) writes: BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy. I'm going to have to add to my savings to keep up with that. In addition to the $70k cost of materials there has been some labour put into the project, say 1000 hours @ $25/hr? Add in electicity usage for a bit more, discounted over the time under construction, and the project would still be producing an enviable return. Now, if a person could find a customer willing to wait several years for a custom built cruiser as GA is, there's a business opportunity. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
#40
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Resin Injection into soft wood
Bah! Amateur built boats are just like amateur built aircraft. They are
NOT the most economical way to go sailing (flying). They are built because we enjoy the building process and want to do it our way. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... "Glenn Ashmore" ) writes: BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy. I'm going to have to add to my savings to keep up with that. In addition to the $70k cost of materials there has been some labour put into the project, say 1000 hours @ $25/hr? Add in electicity usage for a bit more, discounted over the time under construction, and the project would still be producing an enviable return. Now, if a person could find a customer willing to wait several years for a custom built cruiser as GA is, there's a business opportunity. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
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