Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31   Report Post  
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

William R. Watt wrote:
It's not rec.boats.building.luxury


It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this
newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint

Part of expertise in any field is knowing where costs can be cut and
still result in a useful product, knowing which shortcuts result in a
sverely compromised final result, and knowing the operational
limitations such work has... for an example of this, would you advocate
that luan underlayment produces as strong & seaworthy a boat as
Bruynzeel ply... and then expertise also consists of knowing what is
truly the best way.

Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin
with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly
better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ...
and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by
cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and
adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic
blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only
a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original).

Would that ease your socio-economic pain?

DSK

  #32   Report Post  
William R. Watt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood


DSK ) writes:

It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this
newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint


Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market
funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent
so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and
interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding
materials. I chose not to. There are savers and there are consumers, and
on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers
will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner.

Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin
with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly
better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ...
and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by
cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and
adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic
blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only
a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original).


Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is
one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a
requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and
maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low
maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in
others it isn't.

Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious
extravegance.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
  #33   Report Post  
MarshallE
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

Thanks for the many posts and discussion about this topic. As a result we
have chosen to remove and replace with new wood glued and screwed in place.

We will save the wood restoration idea for planks and very small non
stressful areas.

Again....thanks for the many great ideas,

Marshall



"ahoy" wrote in message
...
So does adding wood flour or sawdust as a thickener improve the
bending strength for something like this? I've been wetting some hatch
sliders out for saturation and then building up the gone places with
flour/epoxy. It also seems to blend in better cosmetically. The splash
boards look like too complicated a carpentry job for me. Oh, and
please keep up the petty bickering,..

On 10 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700, wrote:

Hi

It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece
glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is
better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what
it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that
even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I
think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather
than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot
repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a
few standard patches that fit with the router template.
Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat.




  #34   Report Post  
Brian D
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood


Flour doesn't help much, but long fibers do. If you want increased tensile
strength, then use glass fiber ...but keep in mind that it has to be
oriented fiber, oriented in the direction of the load. In other words, pick
the right cloth. Once you've got the right cloth, then the epoxy's sheer
strength will be the primary limiting factor. PC Ford is always cranky, but
he's right a lot more often than he's wrong. Hmmm... trying to think of a
remark that he made that was wrong. Can't think of any. Don't let the
grumpy ol' man treatment get to you. But as he stated, epoxy is not a good
wood replacement if tensile strength is what you are after. Epoxy is far
superior however, if what you are looking for is compressive strength ...if
comparing to wood's compression strength sideways to the grain. Not sure
how they compare if comparing wood's compressive strength when compressed
endways. Wood might be better. Certainly it'll be more forgiving if any
deflection occurs.

Brian D



"ahoy" wrote in message
...
So does adding wood flour or sawdust as a thickener improve the
bending strength for something like this? I've been wetting some hatch
sliders out for saturation and then building up the gone places with
flour/epoxy. It also seems to blend in better cosmetically. The splash
boards look like too complicated a carpentry job for me. Oh, and
please keep up the petty bickering,..

On 10 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700, wrote:

Hi

It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece
glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is
better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what
it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that
even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I
think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather
than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot
repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a
few standard patches that fit with the router template.
Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat.




  #35   Report Post  
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

William R. Watt wrote:
Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market
funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent
so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and
interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding
materials. I chose not to.


And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"?
The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the
internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are.

It may be that Glenn's expenditure on his boat represents a similar...
or smaller... portion of his wealth than your boatbuilding with cheapo
chain-store stuff represents of your overall wealth; if so this would
make him less profligate with his money than you are.

So why don't you chose the wiser course of not insulting others for
their choices?



... There are savers and there are consumers, and
on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers
will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner.


I see, we've switched from rec.boats.profligate-spender to
rec.boats.divine-retribution and if you're going to burn a few witches,
why not wait until winter time when we need the heat anyway?




Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious
extravegance.


So there you go... you're just as wasteful & frivolous as Glenn...
better keep your head down, you may get struck by lightning any second
now...

DSK



  #36   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

When you are taking on a long term large project you have to understand the
costs involved and set your priorities accordingly. If anyone is
interested, with the purchase of the engine I just passed the $70K level. Of
that the hull and deck represent about 18% and the epoxy about 1/3 of that.
What remains is about $30K in spars, rigging, winches and sails. That will
bring the cost of the epoxy down to about 4% of the total cost of the boat.
When you are deciding on such a critical component as the resin that holds
the whole thing together and is such a minor component of the total cost it
really does not make much sense to go cheap.

BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated
completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I
launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


  #37   Report Post  
Jim Conlin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

The trade-off between cost and longevity is a perfectly reasonable one to
consider.
My issue is with the safety of materials and methods which have not been
tested and characterized. If there isn't either long experience or good
engineering testing of a particular material, I won't use it where its
failure would endanger the innocent occupants of the boat. Putting other
souls in a situation where their safety depends on iffy materials, design or
workmanship is irresponsible.
Perhaps a Swiss bank account would be a good idea.

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

SNIP


Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is
one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a
requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and
maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low
maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in
others it isn't.

Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious
extravegance.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

----
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community

network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned



  #38   Report Post  
William R. Watt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood


DSK ) writes:

And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"?
The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the
internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are.


I'm not bragging, I'm complaining. If you have $1 of net worth you are
richer than almost half of the residents of the USA who are in debt for
consumer purchases. All it requires to have savings at my somewhat
advanced age is a bit of discipline. Stay in school, get a steady job,
live withing your means, don't borrow. And build really cheap boats.

A not-very-bright thing that is often seen on the Internet is making
imaginary assumptions about anyone you don't know.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
  #39   Report Post  
William R. Watt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood


"Glenn Ashmore" ) writes:

BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated
completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I
launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy.


I'm going to have to add to my savings to keep up with that. In addition
to the $70k cost of materials there has been some labour put into the
project, say 1000 hours @ $25/hr? Add in electicity usage for a bit more,
discounted over the time under construction, and the project would still
be producing an enviable return. Now, if a person could find a customer
willing to wait several years for a custom built cruiser as GA is, there's
a business opportunity.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
  #40   Report Post  
Roger Derby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Resin Injection into soft wood

Bah! Amateur built boats are just like amateur built aircraft. They are
NOT the most economical way to go sailing (flying). They are built because
we enjoy the building process and want to do it our way.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Glenn Ashmore" ) writes:

BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated
completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I
launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy.


I'm going to have to add to my savings to keep up with that. In addition
to the $70k cost of materials there has been some labour put into the
project, say 1000 hours @ $25/hr? Add in electicity usage for a bit more,
discounted over the time under construction, and the project would still
be producing an enviable return. Now, if a person could find a customer
willing to wait several years for a custom built cruiser as GA is, there's
a business opportunity.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned



Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 BoatBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Boats"

 

Copyright © 2017