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#71
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
DSK wrote :
....snip... BTW I noticed that nobody has yet mentioned "small cockpits" or recommended double enders... After all that worthwhile discussion, there you go starting **** again! grin You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small cockpit." Frank |
#72
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead?
not with dougies in the discussion loop. |
#73
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
"Frank Maier" wrote in message om... DSK wrote : ...snip... BTW I noticed that nobody has yet mentioned "small cockpits" or recommended double enders... After all that worthwhile discussion, there you go starting **** again! grin You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small cockpit." Frank Great idea. I love the Southern Cross 31 (although I think it could use a little more stick), and the SC39 is a nice boat. The Valiant 40 is a great all round cruising boat (so is the Esprit 37). Both are really well mannered. Bob Perry owned and raced a 37 for a number of years and got killed by a well sailed Cal 33 with a gift rating, but hey they had fun. I could go for a Tayana 37 as a cruising boat (the ketch rig on this design is better than a cutter, as much as it pains me to say it). If your tastes for teak run higher there is always the Tashiba/Baba/Tayanas. And don't forget the Fast Passage 39. Are we going to talk about the Moses theory of a double ender parting the waves? Actually, they typically do have good balance between fore and aft volume, so that should help in running off. But, if you're being overtaken by an eight foot breaking sea I don't think it matters what the stern shape looks like, your boots are going to get wet. The Norwegians came up with the seaworthy double ender for their pilot boats (I was going to type Redniskote but I'm sure I'd spell it wrong). But it's interesting that the British, under nearly identical sea conditions came up with their plumb stemmed, long waterline cutters for their pilot service. I guess that just goes to show you that a good boat is a good boat, no matter what her fanny looks like. Oh, and as for small cockpits, I've always thought that it's easier to remedy a too big cockpit than a too small one. Whatever you do, don't forget to put big drains in. Matt |
#74
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
One of the best features my double ender, a Tayana 37, is its' tight and
secure small cockpit. When I settle into it on a warm summer night, there is no better feeling. I think I'd better stop. I'm starting to excite myself. Fair winds - Dan Best Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote: "Frank Maier" wrote in message om... DSK wrote : ...snip... BTW I noticed that nobody has yet mentioned "small cockpits" or recommended double enders... After all that worthwhile discussion, there you go starting **** again! grin You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small cockpit." Frank Great idea. I love the Southern Cross 31 (although I think it could use a little more stick), and the SC39 is a nice boat. The Valiant 40 is a great all round cruising boat (so is the Esprit 37). Both are really well mannered. Bob Perry owned and raced a 37 for a number of years and got killed by a well sailed Cal 33 with a gift rating, but hey they had fun. I could go for a Tayana 37 as a cruising boat (the ketch rig on this design is better than a cutter, as much as it pains me to say it). If your tastes for teak run higher there is always the Tashiba/Baba/Tayanas. And don't forget the Fast Passage 39. Are we going to talk about the Moses theory of a double ender parting the waves? Actually, they typically do have good balance between fore and aft volume, so that should help in running off. But, if you're being overtaken by an eight foot breaking sea I don't think it matters what the stern shape looks like, your boots are going to get wet. The Norwegians came up with the seaworthy double ender for their pilot boats (I was going to type Redniskote but I'm sure I'd spell it wrong). But it's interesting that the British, under nearly identical sea conditions came up with their plumb stemmed, long waterline cutters for their pilot service. I guess that just goes to show you that a good boat is a good boat, no matter what her fanny looks like. Oh, and as for small cockpits, I've always thought that it's easier to remedy a too big cockpit than a too small one. Whatever you do, don't forget to put big drains in. Matt -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
#76
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
Matt Pedersen wrote:
The Tartan has a nice reputation but the centerboard doesn't kick up if you run aground and it can be hard to repair the mechanism if you ground hard and bend something. Hello Matt, Thanks for your great contributions to this thread. I enjoyed pouring over the many details you provided. I'm glad I'm not the only one with some reservations about centerboards. The fact that they can break, and the reduced righting moment are almost deal breakers in my mind. Granted there will be many places I won't be able to go, but the list of places I _WILL_ be able to go to is already endless so I don't think I'll run out of places to go ) My main concern is safety... under some circumstances a centerboard may be "safer" but overall I think the balance tips towards a fixed keel. As I mentioned to Frank on a previous post, one of the things I am curious about is how different boats behave under bare poles in heavy winds. Do you know how the Ranger 33 behaves? Or the other boats on your list? Will they go bow to wind? stern to wind? or lay abeam? I don't have that much experience under bare poles but I read somewhere that most designs that lay bow to wind tend to have full keels, whereas most modern designs will tend to lay abeam. Do you have any experience in this? Thanks, Bob Whitaker "Free Spirit" "Matt/Meribeth Pedersen" wrote in message hlink.net... "Bob Whitaker" wrote in message om... Wow, impressive list of boats! Thanks for the post! I'd be interested in knowing which of these you liked best and which you've had the opportunity to sail under reduced sail and how they handled. I'm very interested in your comments, specially about pros and cons of centerboards. I just thought it might be yet another thing that could break down so I wasn't considering centerboard boats for my dream trip (even if it meant missing out on shallow anchorages). I may start a new thread on this topic one of these days, seeing as the original post turned into mud-slinging central. I think the Morgan 34 (and the CCA era M33, not the Out Island) are pretty good boats. The Tartan has a nice reputation but the centerboard doesn't kick up if you run aground and it can be hard to repair the mechanism if you ground hard and bend something. The Morgan 34 CB doesn't kick up either, but if you do break something it is relatively easy to fix since it's a cable mechanism. I have sailed on the Alberg 35, Ericson 35, C&C 34 (deep keel), Ranger 33 and Yankee 30. All of them are decent boats but the C&C is more squirrely than I like going dead downwind. I think the Ranger 33 is probably the best sailing boat of the bunch, it really has no vices. I extensively crewed on a Ranger 33 for a number of years, racing in all weathers. It was my first experience with a keel boat that stayed on its feet in heavy air downwind.. A friend who owned one swears by them.. You might get arguments from owners of the Ericson 35 that they are just as good as the Ranger, but I don't have the heavy air miles on one to confirm the opinion ( and I'm thinking of the Bruce King designed Mark II version here). The Yankee 30 also has a good rep but again my only experience with them is in relatively light air. They are popular in San Francisco, which tells me they do pretty well in a breeze. I do like the Ericson 35 a little more for cruising than the Ranger, the interior and engine access is just marginally enough nicer that it tips the scales to the Ericson. All the boats listed will not be a floating condo - don't expect a lot of room, and some may seem even smaller than the Cal 34. Random thoughts on the boats I haven't sailed: The Allied Seawind was the first fiberglass boat to do a circumnavigation, and I like Tom Gilmer as a designer so it's got to be a good boat The Luders 34 and Alberg 37 are really pretty boats, but I can't comment on their handling. I haven't sailed on the Douglas 32 but it's reportedly a good light air boat and I think Ted Brewer thought it was one of his better designs. I have a friend with a Mercator 30 who has taken it to Alaska several times. Nice boat, enormous V-berth, has a little weather helm. They are not well known outside of the Pacific Northwest, but at least one has done a circumnavigation. They could use a little more sail area, but do make nice cruisers. The Nich 32 is stout, lots of room for a 32'er and even with her bluff bow will do pretty well going to windward. As far a centerboard boats go, for a trip in the Gulf/Florida/Bahamas I think it's almost a requirement. Not so much for some of the Caribbean. The big disadvantage is of course the added maintenence of the board and it's raising/lowering mechanism. That and they can clunk around in the slot in a seaway, which I always found disconcerting. They do help you go to windward if your sails are up to it, but there are many people who glass the board in place and forget about sailing close winded. I wouldn't, but then I hate sailing boats that don't go to weather well. Of course, seaworthiness is always an issue with centerboard boats. Deep keels have more favorable wieght distribution for resisting and recovery from capsize. A competent, well prepared crew should be able to make a centerboarder work for the type of trip your thinking of though. It wouldn't be my choice for a circumnavigation, but would be for for Gulf cruising. AFter the Fastnet storm of 79, there was a lot of research done on characteristics that help or hinder capsize. One fallout of that was a capsize screen formula. It is Beam (feet) divided by displacement^.3333 (displacement to the 1/3 power, displacement in cubic feet). The result of this formula should be a value less than 2. I have always argued that the formula is a little simplistic because it doesn't take into account ballast placement (you could have 4000 pounds of lead at the top of the mast and the formula would say you have a seaworthy boat). However, for the boats under discussion it should give good results. That's about it for now. Follow up if you'd like, and hopefully the discussion won't go off track like an IOR boat in a breeze again. Matt |
#77
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
How about a Sea Sprite 34 (Luders) build by CE Ryder?
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#78
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
There are ,anecdotally, a large percentage of Freedom owners who's
choice of future boats lies only within the Freedom family. I don't have any idea how this degree of brand loyalty compares with other makes and owners, but it is vociferous, myself included, and noteworthy due to the radically different rig and construction methods. On 17 Mar 2004 12:57:34 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote: Marc wrote: Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or was it market and/or timing? Marc, F36 Hi, Marc, I did not see a survey for Nereid; but I did do a pretty thorough personal walk-through. She seemed to me to be in excellent shape. My opinion is that the owner was sinking money into his new project much faster than he had hoped and was simply desperate to sell Nereid. And, unlike the East Coast, the Northwest is a geographically self-limited market. Frank |
#79
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
You may want to check out John Neal's site at
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#anchor30535563 for his comments and list |
#80
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Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
"Frank Maier" wrote...
You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small cockpit." As long as I don't start getting spam about how to enlarge it.... Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote: Are we going to talk about the Moses theory of a double ender parting the waves? If running with a drogue, sure. IMHO your idea about the balance between reserve bouyancy fore & aft is right on. The Norwegians came up with the seaworthy double ender for their pilot boats (I was going to type Redniskote but I'm sure I'd spell it wrong). Far be it from me to criticize anybody's spelling. The Redningskoite originated as a fisheries service & rescue boat, developed by a Scotsman named (fanfare of trumpets) Colin Archer. http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Ingrid.html The funny thing about the Colin Archer designs is that most people who profess to love the type don't really know anything about them... for example, extolling heavy displacement and moderate reserve bouyancy aft... whereas these boats were built as light as possible for the strength required, given the technology of the day, and one of the big changes Colin Archer made in previous design was to dramatically increase reserve bouyancy. The Valiant series is an interesting case study... they are not in any way related to the Colin Archer type, having wall sides, snubbed canoe sterns, and fin keels. Bob Perry once said in an unguarded moment that the Valiat resulted when he took a moderate displacement fin keeler and had fun making it look like a pirate ship. But not to hold that against them, they are good boats and darn well built. And to the superficial glance, they do *look* like a Colin Archer.... The Westsail 32 is another boat often hailed as a modern Colin Archer, but isn't even close. ... But it's interesting that the British, under nearly identical sea conditions came up with their plumb stemmed, long waterline cutters for their pilot service. I guess that just goes to show you that a good boat is a good boat, no matter what her fanny looks like. One thing to keep in mind is that those old timers had a lot more patience than we do, and a much higher tolerance for user-unfriendly systems. These boats sail more like submarines than a modern sailor is likely to put up with. Oh, and as for small cockpits, I've always thought that it's easier to remedy a too big cockpit than a too small one. Whatever you do, don't forget to put big drains in. How about an open transom? Can't get much more drain area than that. The issue is to keep the reserve bouyancy figures similar. Bob Whitaker wrote: Well, Frank, since you brought it up, I feel compelled to reply. It seems, that Doug could be a good contributor if he wanted to. Dear Bob- You take yourself, and me, and probably everybody else far too seriously. As for "Blue Water Cruiser" that is strictly an advertising phrase. Most sailors who actually cross oceans call their boats passage makers, and there is a tremendous amount of discussion (informed and otherwise) on what characteristics make for a desirable passage making sailboat. It appears to me that the most important feature is between the skippers ears, all else is a matter of familiarity, prejudice, and personal taste. People have crossed oceans in waterproofed refrigerator crates, so a real sailboat would have to be pretty bad before it couldn't do it. OTOH you will find a large number of people with some experience in a given type of boat who will vigorously proclaim that this is the ONLY type of ocean capable boat. YMMV Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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