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  #71   Report Post  
Frank Maier
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

DSK wrote :
....snip...
BTW I noticed that nobody has yet mentioned "small cockpits" or
recommended double enders...


After all that worthwhile discussion, there you go starting ****
again! grin

You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF
we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small
cockpit."

Frank
  #72   Report Post  
JAXAshby
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead?

not with dougies in the discussion loop.
  #73   Report Post  
Matt/Meribeth Pedersen
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser


"Frank Maier" wrote in message
om...
DSK wrote :
...snip...
BTW I noticed that nobody has yet mentioned "small cockpits" or
recommended double enders...


After all that worthwhile discussion, there you go starting ****
again! grin

You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF
we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small
cockpit."

Frank


Great idea. I love the Southern Cross 31 (although I think
it could use a little more stick), and the SC39 is a nice boat.
The Valiant 40 is a great all round cruising boat (so is the
Esprit 37). Both are really well mannered. Bob Perry
owned and raced a 37 for a number of years and got
killed by a well sailed Cal 33 with a gift rating, but hey
they had fun.

I could go for a Tayana 37 as a cruising boat (the ketch rig
on this design is better than a cutter, as much as it pains me
to say it). If your tastes for teak run higher there is always the
Tashiba/Baba/Tayanas. And don't forget the Fast Passage 39.

Are we going to talk about the Moses theory of a double
ender parting the waves? Actually, they typically do have
good balance between fore and aft volume, so that should help
in running off. But, if you're being overtaken by an eight foot
breaking sea I don't think it matters what the stern shape
looks like, your boots are going to get wet.

The Norwegians came up with the seaworthy
double ender for their pilot boats (I was going to type
Redniskote but I'm sure I'd spell it wrong). But it's interesting
that the British, under nearly identical sea conditions came up
with their plumb stemmed, long waterline cutters for their
pilot service. I guess that just goes to show you that a good
boat is a good boat, no matter what her fanny looks like.

Oh, and as for small cockpits, I've always thought that it's
easier to remedy a too big cockpit than a too small one.
Whatever you do, don't forget to put big drains in.

Matt


  #74   Report Post  
Dan Best
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

One of the best features my double ender, a Tayana 37, is its' tight and
secure small cockpit. When I settle into it on a warm summer night,
there is no better feeling.

I think I'd better stop. I'm starting to excite myself.

Fair winds - Dan Best


Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote:
"Frank Maier" wrote in message
om...

DSK wrote :
...snip...

BTW I noticed that nobody has yet mentioned "small cockpits" or
recommended double enders...


After all that worthwhile discussion, there you go starting ****
again! grin

You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF
we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small
cockpit."

Frank



Great idea. I love the Southern Cross 31 (although I think
it could use a little more stick), and the SC39 is a nice boat.
The Valiant 40 is a great all round cruising boat (so is the
Esprit 37). Both are really well mannered. Bob Perry
owned and raced a 37 for a number of years and got
killed by a well sailed Cal 33 with a gift rating, but hey
they had fun.

I could go for a Tayana 37 as a cruising boat (the ketch rig
on this design is better than a cutter, as much as it pains me
to say it). If your tastes for teak run higher there is always the
Tashiba/Baba/Tayanas. And don't forget the Fast Passage 39.

Are we going to talk about the Moses theory of a double
ender parting the waves? Actually, they typically do have
good balance between fore and aft volume, so that should help
in running off. But, if you're being overtaken by an eight foot
breaking sea I don't think it matters what the stern shape
looks like, your boots are going to get wet.

The Norwegians came up with the seaworthy
double ender for their pilot boats (I was going to type
Redniskote but I'm sure I'd spell it wrong). But it's interesting
that the British, under nearly identical sea conditions came up
with their plumb stemmed, long waterline cutters for their
pilot service. I guess that just goes to show you that a good
boat is a good boat, no matter what her fanny looks like.

Oh, and as for small cockpits, I've always thought that it's
easier to remedy a too big cockpit than a too small one.
Whatever you do, don't forget to put big drains in.

Matt



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

  #75   Report Post  
Bob Whitaker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

Frank Maier wrote:

Without doing a Ph.D. dissertation length post


Hello Frank,

Well, your post may not have earned you a Ph.D., but it may qualify
for a Masters! Thanks for the post. You mentioned ease of sailing, and
the fact that you had been on a Freedom 30 and 36 on pretty nasty
weather. That's exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to get
started. One of the items on my seaworthiness list is that the boat
not have a tendency to lay abeam to the wind. Do you know what the
Freedoms do under bare poles? Do they go bow to the wind, stern to the
wind, or lay abeam? I know that this may be hard to answer unless you
have been in that exact situation, so that's OK if you don't know.
That's the beauty of Usenet, that there are thousands of human beings
willing to share their knowledge. Maybe somebody out there knows the
answer.

Some of the other "top" items on my list are being able to beat to
windward under reduced sail (get yourself away from a lee shore),
being able to withstand getting pooped (strong hatches and portholes
with positive locking from the inside, small companionway, sealed
lazarette lockers that don't lead into the main cabin, well-drained
small cockpit, etc.), and good surfing characteristics (positive
steering when going downwind, good reserve buoyancy up front, etc.)

I think I'll reformulate my question one of these days and offer a
punch-style list of desirable characteristics as a starting point for
people to expound on the benefits of different boats. For example,
Matt Pedersen wrote that (of his list) the Ranger 33 was the best boat
of the bunch. He also mentioned the Ericson 35 but he said he didn't
have the high wind mileage on the Ericson to compare with. That's the
beauty of newsgroups! Somebody out in Usenet land has that experience!
Wouldn't it be great if they shared it with us, furthering human
knowledge?

In your subject line you allude to "blue water cruisers."
That's what got you and Doug King at loggerheads. From
reading his posts over the years, I find that I tend to
agree with Doug much of the time.

Well, Frank, since you brought it up, I feel compelled to reply. It
seems, that Doug could be a good contributor if he wanted to. My first
impression of Doug happened actually about a year ago. I was
researching trailers for my Cal-25 and I encountered a thread on
"alt.sailing.asa". I reproduced the quote below for your amusement.
You can search for it on Google:

Ron said about Doug "You are really stupid, a real know-nothing.
NOBODY puts a boat, especially a Cal 25 on a flatbed. Bigger boats
go on low-boys."


What's up with this guy "Ron", I thought to myself? So this other guy
"Doug" said "flatbed" when he really should have said "low-boy".
What's the big deal? Hardly a point worth arguing about. I remember
reading that quote and wondering what kind of person elicits that kind
of response?

Of course, all it took was _ONE_ post on "rec.boats.cruising" for me
to find out! A scant few hours after my first post, Doug King
proclaimed his presence and trumpeted right into my newsreader calling
me "Tidy Bowl" man. Kind of amusing, I must admit, but hardly
appropriate. No wonder this newsgroup gets so cantankerous once in a
while...

As I mentioned to Doug in my last post, it's a case of a few rotten
apples spoiling the whole barrel. He spouts off, complaining about
other members and their beligerent posts, and he seems blind to his
own behavior. He really needs to take a hard look in the mirror and
acknowledge and accept the consequences of his actions. Such a shame.
Such a waste of human knowledge. He seems to be knowledgeable, but
many people probably dismiss his contributions because he tends to
wake up on the wrong side of the bed from time to time. Maybe he was a
pleasant person to have an exchange with 15 years ago, but many years
of Usenet have taken their toll and by now he has probably developed a
Pavlovian response everytime he logs onto a newsgroup. Like I told him
on my last post (that he hasn't responded to), I don't expect him to
drop his weapons when he gets blindsided by one of his many enemies.
On the contrary, I told him to keep fighting the good fight because
most of the time the attacks lashed on him seem to be unfounded. His
many enemies are ready to pounce at the slightest imperfection in
order to get "back" at him. Case in point "flatbed" versus "low-boy".
Doug just needs to take a good look in the mirror and realize he's
become one of them.

Thanks for your posts Frank, I want to reply to Matt now who also has
been a great contributor to this thread.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"



(Frank Maier) wrote in message . com...
(Bob Whitaker) wrote: Frank Maier wrote:

I'm a big fan of the Freedom line; so, my recommendation
would be an early 80s Freedom 32, with a sugarscoop added
to make it a 34.

Hello Frank,

Thanks for the input. What are the features you like most about them?
Is it their sailing characteristics? Is it your familiarity with them
and loyalty to your first love? (a perfectly valid reason ) Is it
their strength? Workmanship? Have you been caught in nasty weather in
one? How did it handle? I know that this is a question without a
single answer. There's probably as many answers to this question as
there are 34 foot models out there. But it would be fun compiling a
list of the top 10, and the reasons why their owners felt that way. I
may try to post another thread one of these days, seeing as the
original post quickly turned to a mud-slinging festival.

Thanks,

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"


Without doing a Ph.D. dissertation length post, I'll state that, as a
class, I don't like heavy displacement cruisers. In your subject line
you allude to "blue water cruisers." That's what got you and Doug King
at loggerheads. From reading his posts over the years, I find that I
tend to agree with Doug much of the time. You also meantioned the
Crealock 34, a boat which, IMHO, falls into this category, a boat
which I would *hate* to sail on. So, those are my prejudices for you
to factor into my comments.

Also like Doug, the idea of a "project boat" is anathema to me; but I
understand that we're all different; and if it's something you enjoy,
then good for you.

The boat which owns my heart, my "Platonic ideal" best boat, is the
Freedom 38. I fell in love with Freedoms after about 20 years of
sailing, both racing and cruising. When Garry Hoyt/Freedom/TPI
produced these boats, it was, for me, an epiphany. Holy ****! Why
hasn't this been done before? Well, it sorta had been. Catboats have
been around for quite a while. Just materials, like carbonfiber masts,
and specifics of design were the innovations which Hoyt gave us with
the Freedom line. To give you a "sales pitch" for the idea of buying a
Freedom 32...

The single "best" feature of Freedoms is their single-handing ability.
Even the 'chute can be flown by one person, launched and doused from
the cockpit. Their construction is second to none (built by TPI). They
have no standing rigging, which means no holes through your deck to
admit water, nothing to break, and nothing to replace every decade or
so. I've never sailed a 32 specifically. I've been in pretty nasty
squally weather on a 30 and a 36 (which is the 38 without the
sugarscoop). Thye use single-line reefing, which again speaks to
convenience for a single-hander and makes it easy to respond swiftly
to deteriorating conditions. (Or easy to catch up if you kinda stay
overcanvassed too long and get behind. Something which I have a
tendency to be guilty of.)

There are a lot of fine boats out there; but Freedom is at/near the
top of my personal list. However, like I said, given my prejudices,
the Crealock, Cape Dory, et al. are boats which are nowhere near my
list, not even at the bottom, although you and many others find them
attractive.

Good luck,

Frank



  #76   Report Post  
Bob Whitaker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

Matt Pedersen wrote:

The Tartan has a nice reputation but the centerboard doesn't
kick up if you run aground and it can be hard to repair the
mechanism if you ground hard and bend something.

Hello Matt,

Thanks for your great contributions to this thread. I enjoyed pouring
over the many details you provided. I'm glad I'm not the only one with
some reservations about centerboards. The fact that they can break,
and the reduced righting moment are almost deal breakers in my mind.
Granted there will be many places I won't be able to go, but the list
of places I _WILL_ be able to go to is already endless so I don't
think I'll run out of places to go ) My main concern is safety...
under some circumstances a centerboard may be "safer" but overall I
think the balance tips towards a fixed keel.

As I mentioned to Frank on a previous post, one of the things I am
curious about is how different boats behave under bare poles in heavy
winds. Do you know how the Ranger 33 behaves? Or the other boats on
your list? Will they go bow to wind? stern to wind? or lay abeam? I
don't have that much experience under bare poles but I read somewhere
that most designs that lay bow to wind tend to have full keels,
whereas most modern designs will tend to lay abeam. Do you have any
experience in this?

Thanks,

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"



"Matt/Meribeth Pedersen" wrote in message hlink.net...
"Bob Whitaker" wrote in message
om...

Wow, impressive list of boats! Thanks for the post! I'd be interested
in knowing which of these you liked best and which you've had the
opportunity to sail under reduced sail and how they handled. I'm very
interested in your comments, specially about pros and cons of
centerboards. I just thought it might be yet another thing that could
break down so I wasn't considering centerboard boats for my dream trip
(even if it meant missing out on shallow anchorages). I may start a
new thread on this topic one of these days, seeing as the original
post turned into mud-slinging central.


I think the Morgan 34 (and the CCA era M33, not the Out Island) are
pretty good boats. The Tartan has a nice reputation but the
centerboard doesn't kick up if you run aground and it can
be hard to repair the mechanism if you ground hard and bend something.
The Morgan 34 CB doesn't kick up either, but if you do break
something it is relatively easy to fix since it's a cable mechanism.

I have sailed on the Alberg 35, Ericson 35, C&C 34 (deep keel),
Ranger 33 and Yankee 30. All of them are decent boats but the C&C
is more squirrely than I like going dead downwind. I think the
Ranger 33 is probably the best sailing boat of the bunch, it really
has no vices. I extensively crewed on a Ranger 33 for a number
of years, racing in all weathers. It was my first experience with a
keel boat that stayed on its feet in heavy air downwind.. A friend
who owned one swears by them..
You might get arguments from owners of the Ericson 35 that they
are just as good as the Ranger, but I don't have the heavy air miles
on one to confirm the opinion ( and I'm thinking of the Bruce King
designed Mark II version here). The Yankee 30 also has a good
rep but again my only experience with them is in relatively light
air. They are popular in San Francisco, which tells me they
do pretty well in a breeze. I do like the Ericson 35 a little more
for cruising than the Ranger, the interior and engine access is just
marginally enough nicer that it tips the scales to the Ericson.

All the boats listed will not be a floating condo - don't expect a lot of
room, and some may seem even smaller than the Cal 34.

Random thoughts on the boats I haven't sailed:

The Allied Seawind was the first fiberglass boat to do a circumnavigation,
and I like Tom Gilmer as a designer so it's got to be a good boat

The Luders 34 and Alberg 37 are really pretty boats, but I can't comment
on their handling.

I haven't sailed on the Douglas 32 but it's reportedly a good light air boat
and I think Ted Brewer thought it was one of his better designs.

I have a friend with a Mercator 30 who has taken it to Alaska several
times. Nice boat, enormous V-berth, has a little weather helm.
They are not well known outside of the Pacific Northwest, but at least
one has done a circumnavigation. They could use a little more sail
area, but do make nice cruisers.

The Nich 32 is stout, lots of room for a 32'er and even with her bluff
bow will do pretty well going to windward.

As far a centerboard boats go, for a trip in the Gulf/Florida/Bahamas
I think it's almost a requirement. Not so much for some of the Caribbean.
The big disadvantage is of course the added maintenence of the board
and it's raising/lowering mechanism. That and they can clunk around
in the slot in a seaway, which I always found disconcerting. They
do help you go to windward if your sails are up to it, but there
are many people who glass the board in place and forget about
sailing close winded. I wouldn't, but then I hate sailing boats
that don't go to weather well.

Of course, seaworthiness is always an issue with centerboard boats.
Deep keels have more favorable wieght distribution for resisting
and recovery from capsize. A competent, well prepared crew
should be able to make a centerboarder work for the type of trip
your thinking of though. It wouldn't be my choice for a
circumnavigation, but would be for for Gulf cruising.

AFter the Fastnet storm of 79, there was a lot of research done
on characteristics that help or hinder capsize. One fallout of that
was a capsize screen formula. It is

Beam (feet) divided by displacement^.3333 (displacement to
the 1/3 power, displacement in cubic feet). The result of
this formula should be a value less than 2. I have always
argued that the formula is a little simplistic because it doesn't
take into account ballast placement (you could have 4000
pounds of lead at the top of the mast and the formula would
say you have a seaworthy boat). However, for the boats
under discussion it should give good results.

That's about it for now. Follow up if you'd like, and hopefully
the discussion won't go off track like an IOR boat in a breeze again.

Matt

  #77   Report Post  
Lime Cat
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

How about a Sea Sprite 34 (Luders) build by CE Ryder?


  #78   Report Post  
Marc
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

There are ,anecdotally, a large percentage of Freedom owners who's
choice of future boats lies only within the Freedom family. I don't
have any idea how this degree of brand loyalty compares with other
makes and owners, but it is vociferous, myself included, and
noteworthy due to the radically different rig and construction
methods.


On 17 Mar 2004 12:57:34 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Marc wrote:
Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36


Hi, Marc,

I did not see a survey for Nereid; but I did do a pretty thorough
personal walk-through. She seemed to me to be in excellent shape. My
opinion is that the owner was sinking money into his new project much
faster than he had hoped and was simply desperate to sell Nereid. And,
unlike the East Coast, the Northwest is a geographically self-limited
market.

Frank


  #79   Report Post  
FredB
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

You may want to check out John Neal's site at
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#anchor30535563 for his comments and list

  #80   Report Post  
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

"Frank Maier" wrote...
You're incorrigible. Couldn't we discuss double entendres, instead? IF
we did that, I'll bet we could somehow work in the phrase "small
cockpit."


As long as I don't start getting spam about how to enlarge it....


Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote:
Are we going to talk about the Moses theory of a double
ender parting the waves?


If running with a drogue, sure. IMHO your idea about the balance between
reserve bouyancy fore & aft is right on.


The Norwegians came up with the seaworthy
double ender for their pilot boats (I was going to type
Redniskote but I'm sure I'd spell it wrong).


Far be it from me to criticize anybody's spelling. The Redningskoite
originated as a fisheries service & rescue boat, developed by a Scotsman
named (fanfare of trumpets) Colin Archer.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Ingrid.html

The funny thing about the Colin Archer designs is that most people who
profess to love the type don't really know anything about them... for
example, extolling heavy displacement and moderate reserve bouyancy
aft... whereas these boats were built as light as possible for the
strength required, given the technology of the day, and one of the big
changes Colin Archer made in previous design was to dramatically
increase reserve bouyancy.

The Valiant series is an interesting case study... they are not in any
way related to the Colin Archer type, having wall sides, snubbed canoe
sterns, and fin keels. Bob Perry once said in an unguarded moment that
the Valiat resulted when he took a moderate displacement fin keeler and
had fun making it look like a pirate ship. But not to hold that against
them, they are good boats and darn well built. And to the superficial
glance, they do *look* like a Colin Archer....

The Westsail 32 is another boat often hailed as a modern Colin Archer,
but isn't even close.

... But it's interesting
that the British, under nearly identical sea conditions came up
with their plumb stemmed, long waterline cutters for their
pilot service. I guess that just goes to show you that a good
boat is a good boat, no matter what her fanny looks like.


One thing to keep in mind is that those old timers had a lot more
patience than we do, and a much higher tolerance for user-unfriendly
systems. These boats sail more like submarines than a modern sailor is
likely to put up with.



Oh, and as for small cockpits, I've always thought that it's
easier to remedy a too big cockpit than a too small one.
Whatever you do, don't forget to put big drains in.


How about an open transom? Can't get much more drain area than that. The
issue is to keep the reserve bouyancy figures similar.



Bob Whitaker wrote:
Well, Frank, since you brought it up, I feel compelled to reply. It
seems, that Doug could be a good contributor if he wanted to.


Dear Bob-
You take yourself, and me, and probably everybody else far too seriously.

As for "Blue Water Cruiser" that is strictly an advertising phrase.

Most sailors who actually cross oceans call their boats passage makers,
and there is a tremendous amount of discussion (informed and otherwise)
on what characteristics make for a desirable passage making sailboat. It
appears to me that the most important feature is between the skippers
ears, all else is a matter of familiarity, prejudice, and personal taste.

People have crossed oceans in waterproofed refrigerator crates, so a
real sailboat would have to be pretty bad before it couldn't do it. OTOH
you will find a large number of people with some experience in a given
type of boat who will vigorously proclaim that this is the ONLY type of
ocean capable boat. YMMV

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

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