That said, there are some very high end manual toilets--W-C Skipper, Groco
EB and Model K--that don't have the short piece of hose connecting the
pump to the bowl...the only place TO put a vented loop in the intake is in
the line between the thru-hull and the pump. However, the design of these
toilets also makes a vented loop in the intake unncessary.

Thanks Peggy, that answers the question I was going to ask. I have one of
those manual types, I can't remember which right now and I'm not at the boat
to look, but it has a spring loaded pedal that you step on to flush. When I
purchased the boat, the surveyor wrote it up as needing a vented loop and
the insurance company dutifully required it, I could see no way of
installing one so I replied back that it was not possible or needed with my
head. Also the PO had conveniently installed second shutoff right alongside
of the head that can easily be reached even when sitting on it. I use this
religiously. The insurance company (BoatUS) never replied back so I suppose
they are good with it.

John

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:24:19 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at gmail
dotcom said:

So, if I understand vented loops properly, suction gets air, rather than
water, thus preventing siphoning. So, how do you suck in the supply water
if the supply line is vented???

Peggy has already explained that the vented loop goes between the pump and

"Already," after I'd posted my question...

the head bowl, not between the pump and the intake. On the upstroke, the
pump applies suction to draw water in through the intake, and that suction
isn't broken since there's no vent in the line it's pulling on. On the
downstroke the pump is applying pressure to push the water from the pump
to
the head bowl. That pressure closes the vent valve, since it's from inside
the line, not outside the line.

and


"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
om...
Skip, have you ever bothered to the read the manual for your toilet? It
includes drawings showing the locations for both discharge and intake
vented loops.

No, Peggie, to your question, having not had a manual (or at least, that
we've discovered, yet, having moved the entire interior contents of the boat
not less than 3 times in the course of our refit) for our Raritan PHIIs, I
didn't see anything to that effect. Or the question would not have arisen.
Despite my quest for clarity and understanding on things I've not dealt with
many times already, I do have a mechanical bent and a better than ordinary
spatial perception. Given my situation (see below), which I assumed to not
be atypical, I couldn't readily make the leap to "outflow" rather than
"inflow" in the supply line chain. On my boat, the outflow hose(s) is/are
about 6" long, going directly from the pump to the intake on the bowl, which
I assumed to be standard.

Earlier (way earlier, maybe a year, in a thread about LectraSans) I
commented about the extraordinarily long runs in the aft head. The removal
of the LS makes the exhaust run only about 15 feet, total (counting the 3'
up and down it has to go to the vented loop top). However, I infer from
what I see in the thread, now, that I'm looking at something similar for our
intake.

Our intake is on the other side of the keel from the exhaust, both of which
are in front of the head (well, technically, aft of the head, but in front
of how you'd sit, rear [pardon the expression] facing, on the stool). The
only cosmetically acceptable location for a vented loop is in the engine
room, about 4' or more from the thru hull, not counting the up-and-down to
get to the pump from under the sole and raised stool location. It would
also mean another hole in the stool deck (one to go from the pump, out and
under to the engine room, and the other, original, to go back in, to go to
the toilet supply).

From all the preceding vented loop discussion, as much rube goldberg as that
seems, it's what's needed? Or, every time the head's used, the t/h valve
gets closed? There *is* a handle'd valve on both terlets' intake hoses.
Perhaps that's what it's about? Aside from the nuisance value of that, does
that suffice?

Thanks. I'm not really dense - I just want to make sure I don't screw up,
and I've not dealt with marine sanitation all my adult life...

L8R

Skip, still ashore, but getting closer to stepping aboard and cutting the
cord as PT progresses apace


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Stamp out Sesquipedalianism

Skip Gundlach wrote:
On my boat, the outflow hose(s) is/are
about 6" long, going directly from the pump to the intake on the bowl, which
I assumed to be standard.

Standard as all toilets come from the factory, but not necessarily an
installation that meets safety standards.

Earlier (way earlier, maybe a year, in a thread about LectraSans) I
commented about the extraordinarily long runs in the aft head. The removal
of the LS makes the exhaust run only about 15 feet, total (counting the 3'
up and down it has to go to the vented loop top).

That's still too long...

The
only cosmetically acceptable location...

Arrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!! The obsession with "cosmetically acceptable"
locations for safety equipment on a boat is a recent innovation that
never existed before the industry began marketing boats to people who
don't really want a BOAT, they want an RV--or worse yet, a luxury
condo--that floats. No...vented loops and seacocks are NOT "decor"
items...but before decor trumped safety, that didn't concern owners. Put
the bloomin' loop(s) where it(they) belongs--above the toilet on the
bulkhead behind it. Email me--peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net--and
I'll send you or anyone else who wants one a photo of the correct
installation. If that's "cosmetically unacceptable," build a teak,
mahogany, plywood, formica--whatever you consider to BE "cosmetically
acceptable!"--box to cover it and the plumbing. Just make it removeable
so you can service the air valve in the loop and check the hose clamps etc.

As for the manual for your PH II, you can download and print one from
he http://www.raritaneng.com/tech_suppo...s_manuals.html

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Understood, but I'm not going to replace a perfectly good head with one of
lesser quality so I can put in a vented loop that is not needed with my
current system.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:32:56 -0800, "johnhh"
wrote:

The insurance company (BoatUS) never replied back so I suppose
they are good with it.

============================

Don't assume that. If your boat sinks and you make a claim, that will
be one of the first things they check. It's not a risk that you
really want to take.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 06:14:16 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Peggie Hall wrote:
Skip Gundlach wrote:
On my boat, the outflow hose(s) is/are
about 6" long, going directly from the pump to the intake on the bowl, which
I assumed to be standard.

Standard as all toilets come from the factory, but not necessarily an


In case anyone is interested in what a vented loop looks like:

http://tinyurl.com/bghhg

=======================

Can you make that picture more authentic?

In real life they usually have a lot of green grunge on them.

Dave wrote:
The question was not what surveyors or insurance companies should do. It's
what they do do. I think the experience I reported reflects reality.

Not among good surveyors. But unfortunately the bad ones outnumber the
good ones.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Peggie,

Trying to tell people to install vented loops is like trying to get them to
close seacocks when they leave the boat for extended periods. Ain't gonna
happen.

When you tell people they should close all the through hulls prior to
leaving they say that is not what they are for, or that would take to long,
or don't you trust your hoses, or I can't get too my through hulls,,,,and
that is why most boats sink at the dock.

You should see the looks I get from the yard when I tell them the ignition
key is hanging on the closed raw water engine intake and they will need to
open the intake when getting the key to start the engine.

B

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
Gary wrote:
Yup, my cousins bilge pump started syphoning and sank his boat.

I don' TEEENK that's what happened...for a couple of reasons: bilge pumps
don't bring water INTO the boat, they remove water FROM the boat...and the
thru-hulls for bilge pumps are above the waterline. So unless there was
already enough water in the boat to put the bilge pump thru-hull under
water, there's no way that a siphon can start in a bilge pump line.

The water that sank your cousin's boat had to be coming in somewhere
else...and either the bilge pumps clogged and failed, or they kept pumping
till they drained the batteries and died...allowing the boat to fill up
and sink. Or, the water was coming in faster than the bilge pumps could
keep up with it. Or any combination/all of the above.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Bryan wrote:
Trying to tell people to install vented loops is like trying to get them to
close seacocks when they leave the boat for extended periods. Ain't gonna
happen.


Yep. And that's why somany boats are in the shape they're in.


When you tell people they should close all the through hulls prior to
leaving they say that is not what they are for, or that would take to long,
or don't you trust your hoses, or I can't get too my through hulls,,,,and
that is why most boats sink at the dock.


Yep again. "That's not what they're for"??!? Gee what are
they for then?

"Can't get to my thru-hulls"?!?!!?!!!???!! Why did you buy a
freekin' boat with inaccessible thru-hulls?

Another common one is people who don't know where their
thru-hulls are.


You should see the looks I get from the yard when I tell them the ignition
key is hanging on the closed raw water engine intake and they will need to
open the intake when getting the key to start the engine.


Another goody is people not closing their fuel tank valves.



Gary wrote:
Yup, my cousins bilge pump started syphoning and sank his boat.

"Peggie Hall" wrote
I don' TEEENK that's what happened...for a couple of reasons: bilge pumps
don't bring water INTO the boat, they remove water FROM the boat...and the
thru-hulls for bilge pumps are above the waterline.

Umm, not all of them are.


The water that sank your cousin's boat had to be coming in somewhere
else...and either the bilge pumps clogged and failed, or they kept pumping
till they drained the batteries and died...allowing the boat to fill up
and sink. Or, the water was coming in faster than the bilge pumps could
keep up with it. Or any combination/all of the above.


Rainwater can do it. Also if shore water supply is left
hooked up, and a leak begins (or a hose blows out); that is
a very common way boats sink at the dock (accoring to
insurance). I guess leaving shore water hooked up goes on
the list with leaving thru-hulls & fuel valves open....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Bryan wrote:

Trying to tell people to install vented loops is like trying to get them to
close seacocks when they leave the boat for extended periods. Ain't gonna
happen.

I know. Today's typical boat owner is a new breed...clueless, happy to
remain so, unwilling to learn even the most basic skills, do any manual
labor, or take any responsibility for ensuring the safety of his own
boat...if I've heard "that's why I have insurance" once, I've heard it
100 times! Perhaps if the insurance industry stopped paying claims for
preventable losses.... But that ain't gonna happen either.

Btw, Doug... Not all bilge pump thru-hulls are above the waterline???
That's nutsy design...how can a pump empty out a boat through a hole
through which water can come in faster than the pump can push it out???
Otoh, I just learned that a lot of cockpit drain through-hulls are
also below the waterline...which makes no sense to me either...sigh...




--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Bryan wrote:
Trying to tell people to install vented loops is like trying to get
them to close seacocks when they leave the boat for extended periods.
Ain't gonna happen.


Peggie Hall wrote:
I know. Today's typical boat owner is a new breed...

I dunno if it's so much a "new" breed as the same old
dumb-ass from all ages of history, only set free in today's
consumer-driven easy-credit economy.

Would we have it be any different, truly? Then it would be
much more difficult to be above average!

... clueless, happy to
remain so, unwilling to learn even the most basic skills, do any manual
labor, or take any responsibility for ensuring the safety of his own
boat...

Careful, now you're swerving into politics!

... if I've heard "that's why I have insurance" once, I've heard it
100 times! Perhaps if the insurance industry stopped paying claims for
preventable losses.... But that ain't gonna happen either.


That's true but many insurance companies either raise rates
on "accident" prone boaters just like they do for similarly
inclined auto drivers; and also insurance companies quit
writing boat policies. A big wave occurred after Hurricane
Katrina, and boat insurance is going up.

All the above are among the reasons why I think the
recreational boating market is not going to climb up into a
seller's market any time soon, if ever. The impact of peak
oil on the macro economy and the reduced interest in outdoor
activities on the part of young people (most of whom would
be perfectly content to sit around playing video games) are
two more.

Btw, Doug... Not all bilge pump thru-hulls are above the waterline???
That's nutsy design...how can a pump empty out a boat through a hole
through which water can come in faster than the pump can push it out???
Otoh, I just learned that a lot of cockpit drain through-hulls are also
below the waterline...which makes no sense to me either...sigh...


Well, boat design & construction is a compromise. Some
compromises are better than others

DSK