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#131
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On Sun, 18 May 2008 14:33:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message news On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard engine. In fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat. I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out. Muriatic acid will. Nothing attacks aluminum oxide: saphire or ruby are aluminum oxide.. Not even slightly reactive with muratic acid. Muratic will dissolve carbonates very nicely. Calcium and magnesium is what it is, not aluminum. Casady |
#132
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
"Richard Casady" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 18 May 2008 14:33:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message news On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard engine. In fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat. I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out. Muriatic acid will. Nothing attacks aluminum oxide: saphire or ruby are aluminum oxide.. Not even slightly reactive with muratic acid. Muratic will dissolve carbonates very nicely. Calcium and magnesium is what it is, not aluminum. Casady I stand corrected. Your explanation is logical. But the point is salt crystals cannot remain salt crystals when immersed in a flow of hot fresh or salt water. The so-called salt crystals are not NaCl salts from salt water like these idiots seem to think they are. Wilbur Hubbard |
#133
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
Thsanks to all for a variety of explanations regarding the operation
of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard. In summation we know the following: 1--Suzuki calls, what is normally referred to as pee holes and/or tell- tales, pilot holes. 2--The owner's manual is poorly written and appears to be contradictory in regards to the operation of the cooling system. 3--We haven't yet found out whether or not Suzuki has some secret, high-level design wherein their DF2.5 doesn't operate, in regards to the cooling system, like the other 10 billion outboards in the Milky Way galaxy. 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. -Jay |
#134
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
"Jay" wrote in message ... Thsanks to all for a variety of explanations regarding the operation of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard. In summation we know the following: 1--Suzuki calls, what is normally referred to as pee holes and/or tell- tales, pilot holes. 2--The owner's manual is poorly written and appears to be contradictory in regards to the operation of the cooling system. 3--We haven't yet found out whether or not Suzuki has some secret, high-level design wherein their DF2.5 doesn't operate, in regards to the cooling system, like the other 10 billion outboards in the Milky Way galaxy. 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. -Jay What puzzles me about all this is the statement you quoted (IIRC) from the instruction book saying that under certain conditions water may not be coming out of the pilot holes when the engine is running, even if all is well. I have a Yamaha 2.5 4-stroke and the instruction book clearly says that water must be coming out of the pilot holes at all times when the engine is running. This is what I would expect. Every motor I have ever used worked that way. I believe this is the main point you should take up with your Suzuki dealer. |
#135
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay wrote:
4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Wait a sec. Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose. Rick |
#136
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
Are you doing this testing in a bucket or small tank? Too small a tank will
cause enough turbulence, even in neutral, that the water intake may get intermittent supply. Put the motor on the boat in the lake and try it again. The comment about checking it in neutral refers to the fact that you shouldn't put an engine in gear, lean over the back and open the throttle. It's dangerous on account of you would get thrown out the back and, at a minimum, laughed at. The 2.5 hp is very low power so you could tie the boat to the dock and try it in gear, it won't pull too hard. From your descriptions it sounds like everything is fine. The poster who suggested taking it out and seeing what happens was correct. If you want to avoid potential paddling, tie it to the dock and run the motor in gear until you feel confident it runs well and then take it for a ride. |
#137
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
On May 19, 8:35*am, wrote:
On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay *wrote: 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Wait a sec. *Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd. Actually, Rick, I'm not really over-reacting; I'm just realizing that in the entire chain of events here something is amiss and I'm the type of person who likes ALL the ducks in a row before moving on. It's not an emotional state, it's a lifestyle. I fully realize that all is well with the motor in general and the only items left to sift out in this mystery are the veracity of the owner's manual vs. the design of the motor and/or both. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose. Rick Actually I've chatted with two Suzuki mechanics and both have scratched their heads regarding the manual and one is going to reach out to the major shop wizards in the Suzuki USA conglomerate. (And being unable to figure it out at the local level caused him a bit of chagrin...I could sense it through ther telephone wires). However, I'm leaning toward the bogus manual solution but we'll see. I'll let you know as soon as the word trickles down from the mountain. -Jay |
#138
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
Jay wrote:
On May 19, 8:35 am, wrote: On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay wrote: 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Wait a sec. Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd. Actually, Rick, I'm not really over-reacting; I'm just realizing that in the entire chain of events here something is amiss and I'm the type of person who likes ALL the ducks in a row before moving on. It's not an emotional state, it's a lifestyle. I fully realize that all is well with the motor in general and the only items left to sift out in this mystery are the veracity of the owner's manual vs. the design of the motor and/or both. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose. Rick Actually I've chatted with two Suzuki mechanics and both have scratched their heads regarding the manual and one is going to reach out to the major shop wizards in the Suzuki USA conglomerate. (And being unable to figure it out at the local level caused him a bit of chagrin...I could sense it through ther telephone wires). However, I'm leaning toward the bogus manual solution but we'll see. I'll let you know as soon as the word trickles down from the mountain. -Jay Personally I'd go for running it at the dock with an electronic thermometer monitoring the power head (hollow out a little block of polystyrene so the probe is insulated from the air and tape or wedge the probe against the cylinder head, with a little dab of thermal transfer grease (as used for PC CPUs etc.) for good heat conduction, with the polystyrene over it. Some time spent at varying revs and in and out of gear and you'll soon know which part of the manual to belive. Your own observations are likely to be more accurate than a manual that has suffered in translation . . . I must note however that unless the cooling water telltale or 'pee hole' squirts up into the air jetski style, you are very unlikely to notice a blockage in time. They seem to be more to let you check the impeller isn't b*****ed beginining of each trip. There is no simple way of adding an alarm to an engine without an electrical system at the design stage, One could only design in a thermal trip that operated the kill switch. Probably there would be enough false trips to make it a manufacturer's nightmare and a laywers dream :-( Perhaps there's a market for a minature watch battery powered alarm beeper that sticks inside the cowling with a probe that tapes to the cylinder head. |
#139
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
Anyone read manuals for British cars from the 60's?
lol! surfnturf wrote in message ... Jay wrote: "Water is NOT normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly. Salty wrote: Truly bizarre. Especially when coupled with the part that says: "Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holest". I think the same guy writes the Honda manuals ;-) Rick |
#140
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
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