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#121
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On May 17 Phantman wrote:
Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs lol! I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre". On Sat, 17 May 08, Jay wrote: I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual. I wasn't quoting directly, I was combining what it stated in two separate paragraphs. Paragraph 1. "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. Water is not normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly" Paragraph 2.."CAUTION Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result". First it says water isn't always discharged, that's normal, then it tells you to not operate your motor "when there is no water coming out of the pilot holes". That looks like a conflict to me. You may be right that they may mean "in gear" or whatever, but it's still ambiguous to say the least. The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole "water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats? I'm not knockin' your motor. Suzuki has a good reputation. But there's something here that makes no sense to me and I'm just trying to understand what it is. I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. I agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are necessarily in error. I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything bizarre about calling them Pilot holes. Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the cooling system? Possibly. But I think you may have missed my point. Probably my fault for not communicating clearly and I hope I haven't muddied the water even more with what I've tried to get across here. Rick |
#122
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall"
wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. |
#123
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
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#124
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)
On May 17, 6:42*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 17 May 2008 18:31:51 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote: On May 17, 3:02*pm, wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 13:45:22 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote: On May 17, 8:40*am, wrote: Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting..... unless severe damage occurs lol! *I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre". I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual. I think I would call a Suzuki mechanic (not a salesman) and get an explanation that makes sense.. And pin him down if necessary. That owners manual is as ambiguous as any I've heard about. I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. *I agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are necessarily in error. The manual states, "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. *Water is not normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly. *However, cooling system operation can be confirmed as follows: 1---Place the shift selector lever in the NEUTRAL position with the motor idling. 2---Increase and decrease the engine speed five or six times in succession by opening and closing the throttle smoothly and without stopping in any one throttle position. 3---If water is discharged from the pilot water holes under this operating condition, the cooling system is working properly. *If water is not discharged, stop the engine as soon as possible and consult your authorized Suzuki Marine dealer." It then states: *CAUTION *Never OPERATE (perhaps they are referring to having the motor in GEAR, not NEUTRAL as stated above) your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result. *Before setting off, be sure that emergency stop switch operates properly. Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the cooling system? -Jay The purpose of a tell-tale, regardless of what you want to call it, is to be a CONSTANT indicator that the water pump is working. So it makes no difference in this particular Suzuki model, first designed and manufactured in 2006, whether or not the engine is under load (i.e. in gear as opposed to idling in neutral) as to the necessity of the water pump squirting water out of the pilot holes? If the tell tale doesn't always have water coming out of it when the engine is running I would consider that a defect, and a serious one. That is why ALL small outboards have them. If Suzuki has built an engine with a tell tale, pilot hole, or pee-hole that does not emit water under ALL operating conditions then the only answer is that they made a big mistake in their design, and should issue a recall to rectify it. One needs to be careful about something being the "only answer" to any problem. And most would agree that if this motor, which has powered thousands of boats since 2006, had a serious manufacturing defect the boating world would most certainly have heard all about it by now, the recall would have already been in progress and this thread concerning the matter would never have existed. So therefore it's not at all possible that a new design created just 18-24 months ago by Suzuki could have created a motor that is not like ALL other motors and that no mistake at all was made? If that's the way it was intended, I would return the motor for a refund. I'm quite serious. Would you accept an automobile where they told you the oil pressure warning light would only indicate a problem if you pulled over to the side of the road and performed a "procedure" to make it work? I'm not totally disagreeing with your logic; however, in any unusual situation one perhaps should consider that all things, even in the same category (i.e. outboard motors) do not work nor are constructed in exactly the same manner and the analogy between a car's oil pressure and an outboard's cooling system would only be applicable if both motorsd/engines were built exactly the same way and one was talking about exactly the same system within those same motors.. There is no good reason on earth why the cooling water indicator on an outboard should ever stop squirting while the motor is running. *That's a potentially fatal flaw. Or perhaps there is no good reason I. you or several others can think of at this time? Nope. I have this right with no exceptions. And you very well may be but until you have thoroughtly disassembled a DF2.5 Suzuki outboard and/or attained a thorough understanding of how that particular model is constructed and functions and if it is or isn't different than most outboards, then your statement is based upon your long-time valuable experience with outboard motors but NOT THIS ONE so therefore you may or may not "have this right." Not trying to disagree with what you're saying but just keeping an open mind. *I've found that I get used to things being a certain way in other matters and sometimes have difficulty accepting they could be done differently and be just as good, and not necessarily "wrong." *I guess the best way to resolve this issue is perhaps to write American Suzuki Marine, P.O. Box 1100, Brea, CA 92822 and give 'em the what for...lol. Tell you what. *I'll take the boat out soon, putt around the lake and if no water squirts out all the time and the motor seizes up, I'll feed it to Suzuki for lunch. *If I putt around the lake and water doesn't squirt out all the time and nothing overheats and/or seizes up, I guess then I'll know that they didn't screw up and they did design a motor to operate exactly as stated in the manual and that all other fears basesd on other outboard motors are therefore groundless. Does that sound reasonable? Only to a fool. Good luck, anyway. That's all you have on your side. No, that's incorrect. I have a written signed warranty in my hand and an owner's manual that states exactly what I've reproduced here and a cousin who's a great attorney. I think I have far more that luck and would not consider myself a fool. I mean what better way to prove your point about the motor being manufactured defectively than to operate it as per the owner's manual and seize it up? And if it doesn't fail when operating it according to that owner's manual, well....oooops! -Jay |
#125
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)
On May 17, 8:13*pm, wrote:
On May 17 Phantman wrote: Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs lol! *I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre". On Sat, 17 May 08, Jay wrote: I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual. I wasn't quoting directly, I was combining what it stated in two separate paragraphs. Paragraph 1. "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. *Water is not normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly" Paragraph 2.."CAUTION *Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result". First it says water isn't always discharged, that's normal, then it tells you to not operate your motor "when there is no water coming out of the pilot holes". That looks like a conflict to me. You may be right that they may mean "in gear" or whatever, but it's still ambiguous to say the least. The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole "water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats? I'm not knockin' your motor. Suzuki has a good reputation. But there's something here that makes no sense to me and I'm just trying to understand what it is. I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. *I agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are necessarily in error. I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything bizarre about calling them Pilot holes. Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the cooling system? Possibly. But I think you may have missed my point. Probably my fault for not communicating clearly and I hope I haven't muddied the water even more with what I've tried to get across here. Rick Rick, I agree there is some ambiguity in the manual (as in many manuals translated from another language into English) and I'd like to get this cleared up ASAP. I fully understand the logic regarding the need to see that water squirting out of the pilot holes at all times the motor is running and still trying to ascertain why THIS motor, according to it's poorly-written manual, doesn't find that necessary. -Jay |
#126
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)
On May 17, 9:04*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
Not knowing anything about OB cooling systems, a couple questions. 1. If the OB has a thermostat, can it be fully closed? 2. With the OB's you are familiar with, can the engine overheat even when the pee hole has a stream? I'm thinking Jay's new OB is designed to discharge all cooling water through the thermostat, and if it's shut, no stream. Electronic controls might make that a good way to manage engine efficiency. *It might also have an overheat shutdown. Though I know OB owners basically worship that peehole stream as the Holy Grail of engine heat control, it may not so important with this small engine. * Yeah, I know, "Paragraph 2.."CAUTION *Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result". So it is contradictory. *Might have cribbed that from the manual of a bigger engine. *In any case bad manual writing. --Vic Vic, thanks for a possible alternate explanation. I will ask my Suzuki mechanic about that. And that bit about the "one-size-fits- all" manual, I've run into that before where it seems like they got the pages mixed up between two products and what you read doesn't even apply to one. Thanks. -Jay |
#127
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
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#128
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
wrote in message news On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard |
#129
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On Sun, 18 May 08, Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
I think that you are interprets the manual incorrectly. Very possible. From your quote I believe it is intended to mean something like: Water does not come out the hole at all speeds, i.e. no water at low engine speed. Right. Low speed would be an "other" speed ("intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. Water is not normally discharged at OTHER speeds) . To check the water pump, put the shift in neutral (so you don't take off and crash into something) and jazz the throttle, i.e., water comes out the holes at the higher RPMS If water doesn't come out the holes call the Dealer. Try it in your bucket and see if that isn't the case, water comes out the holes at higher RPMs. I think we're interpreting the manual the same way except I'm seeing it say "intermittent" at *medium* speeds and no discharge at "other" (lower and/or higher?) speeds. Your explanation may very well be correct though, as well as other explanations posted. But I hope Suzuki has an explanation that's not only less ambiguous but something that works to warn immediately of a failed water pump. I have a 1968 Evinrude (pre tell-tale model) and even that antique gives you an immediate indication, with the amount of exhaust spray, of the status of the water pump. I'm thinking there's bound to be something they've left out of the manual. Rick |
#130
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message news On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard engine. In fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat. I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out. Muriatic acid will. Wilbur Hubbard |
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