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Ki Ayker
 
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Default Lessons from a capsize


When did looking "macho" come into this discussion? Gimme a break!


Not as much on this thread, but I think it's pretty rampant on this
newsgroup.

As for recommendations, sure, we all think for ourselves.


You couldn't prove that by me. It would seem to me that a rather large
percentage of "sea kayakers" have been programed to spew forth the common
mantras without applying any actual thought or research to what they are
talking about.

However, when you're
giving advice on the web to someone you don't know, erring on the side of
caution
is the prudent thing to do.


Kinda reminds me of one of my father's stories from his lifeguarding days.
It would seem that a tourist, a young man, thought it might be fun to dive from
the pier into the water thirty or forty feet below. Unfortunately this fellow
didn't really know how to swim. So he decided to "err on the side of caution"
and dive into water that was not over his head so he wouldn't drown. His plan
worked perfectly -- he didn't drown. He died from a broken neck!

I doubt that anyone has ever been injured or killed
because they dressed for immersion,


A number of "victims" have died while dressed for immersion. Who's to say
that their attire did not in some way contribute to their demise. Perhaps they
were so hot that they decided to do a roll, or take a swim, and ended up in the
water separated from their boat as a result. Or they capsized and were so
encumbered by their attire that they were unable to catch their boat, or make
the shore. The bottom line is that you do not really know if being dressed for
immersion might have in some way contributed to some of the kayaking
fatalities.

but lot's of people have died because they
didn't.


I am not aware of anyone who dropped dead on the beach because they were not
dressed for immersion! Did they actually die because they were not properly
attired, or was their attire simply a contributing circumstance? By my way of
thinking there is a huge difference here. A lot of people have died despite
being properly dressed for immersion as well. So it would appear that this is
not the magic solution for survival in this sport that you seem to want to make
it out to be.

It's not up to us to impose the degree of risk we accept on someone else.


Then why do so many people in this sport attempt to do just that?

Scott
So.Cal.
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Ki Ayker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lessons from a capsize

So why do you bring it up when it's not appropriate? Is that just your way of
attempting to discredit a viewpoint you don't agree with?


Uh, what viewpoint would that be? I was merely commenting in my somewhat
pointed and controversial style that I very much agreed with the assessment by
the other Scott from Great River Outfitters.

There are a lot of "common mantras" that make a lot of sense. Yes, they should
be
tempered with personal judgement, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid.


Perhaps the validity of the "common mantras" is the issue here. Or perhaps
there is no real issue here. I can't decide

That's a cute story, but it's completely irrelvent to the discussion at hand.
You're dodging the point by changing the subject.


Not at all! People like the pier diver exist. Some of them will undoubtedly
show up in kayaks. So what do you do about them? You can make it illegal for
people to dive off of the pier and post signs declaring this. Oops, they
already did that and he jumped anyway. Besides, is diving off of the pier
really all that dangerous? I've done it, as have most of my friends (and my
father too, for that matter). And none of us had any problems. Of course the
trick is to be intelligent enough to dive into the deeper water, and knowing
how to swim a bit is not such a bad idea either.
People like the pier diver are simply statistics looking for a place to
happen. They are the types of people who will not listen to all of your good
advice. They are also the types of people who could most benefit from it.
I feel that VB, the original poster has a pretty good grip on reality. While
some posters have suggested that one must always dress for immersion and do
rolls to cool down, it was VB's missing his roll which began the dangerous
scenario in the first place. Yet some of you think that he should intentionally
capsize to cool down! Seems a bit ludicrous to me. VB knew what he was doing
and was pretty well prepared. But s*&t happens. Still he managed to survive,
and learn a few things in the process. Sounds like a pretty good day to me

Oh PULLLLEEEAAASEEE! You are REALLY reaching here.


Absolutely. So what? I'm having fun

Are you actually saying that you
believe that wearing immersion protection has caused any significant number
of
deaths?


Of course not. I was just tossing out some possible scenarios (how ever
remotely possible they may be). On the other hand, I have been somewhat
concerned that rescue gear, pfd's, wetsuits, drysuits, epirbs, VHF radios and
such could in fact instill a greater sense of confidence and ability in a
person or group which might entice them to take greater risks then they
probably should. This does not mean that I believe people should necessarily
paddle without this stuff, but perhaps the emphasis in this sport should be
less on skills and equipment, and a little more towards common sense and
applied intelligence.

What kind of ridiculous response is that? Who ever made such a claim?


You posted; "I doubt that anyone has ever been injured or killed
because they dressed for immersion, but lot's of people have died because they
didn't."

I have attempted to address the part about your doubts. It is possible that
being dressed for immersion can contribute to a kayaking incident. I'm not
saying it has ever happened, but then again you don't know that it hasn't. Is
this a stretch? Probably. So what?
Then you claim that "lots of people died because they didn't" wear immersion
apparel. I doubt you would find on any of the death certificates, "cause of
death, lack of immersion apparel." People die from hypothermia and drowning
which resulted from them screwing up in the first place. Sure, being dressed
for immersion might have saved some of the fatalities. Then again, maybe not! I
don't know, and I very much doubt that you do either. Like I said before, lots
of people have died while dressed for the water as well. It is simply not
possible to look at a sea kayaking incident and know that this person would
have survived if they had only XYZ, or that that person would not have if they
didn't XYZ. You can't do it!
Is dressing for the water a good idea. Of course! But VB has his reasons for
dressing light, and at least I can respect that. One must assess each scenario
on an individual basis rather then just lump the whole damn sport into big a
pile of "you must do it this way or else!" I simply cannot accept that the very
same rules of the sport which apply to someone doing an expedition in Alaska
MUST be applied to someone else doing a harbor paddle in Southern California.
Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

Obviously, you've made your own decisions and you're not going to be swayed
by this
discussion.


Actually, I consider myself to be rather open minded. Certainly much more so
then most of the people I butt heads with on these groups. I change my mind all
of the time as new information becomes available.
As far as my arguments go, sometimes I actually have a point. Sometimes I
just pick a side to be contrary. I mean, do you really think that we are
solving any of the world's problems here? I like to try to make people think
about what they are doing. Sometimes I succeed. Other times I just **** people
off. Oh well.

Scott
So.Cal.
  #3   Report Post  
Rick Donnelly
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lessons from a capsize

....stuff deleted

Of course not. I was just tossing out some possible scenarios (how ever
remotely possible they may be). On the other hand, I have been somewhat
concerned that rescue gear, pfd's, wetsuits, drysuits, epirbs, VHF radios

and
such could in fact instill a greater sense of confidence and ability in a
person or group which might entice them to take greater risks then they
probably should. This does not mean that I believe people should

necessarily
paddle without this stuff, but perhaps the emphasis in this sport should

be
less on skills and equipment, and a little more towards common sense and
applied intelligence.


Valid point. Equipment is only as effective after the human fails in some
manner. They do not ensure rescue or survival, they simply raise the odds a
bit (provided adequate training, maintenance, and protection from
sinking/immersion - if potentially damaged by same). Those with greater
confidence in such devices than I have may well enter conditions that exceed
their skills, potentially exposing themselves to more harm than necesssary.
They may also, as a result, develop some needed skills more quickly. The
proverbial two-edged sword.

....stuff deleted

Then you claim that "lots of people died because they didn't" wear

immersion
apparel. I doubt you would find on any of the death certificates, "cause

of
death, lack of immersion apparel." People die from hypothermia and

drowning
which resulted from them screwing up in the first place. Sure, being

dressed
for immersion might have saved some of the fatalities. Then again, maybe

not! I
don't know, and I very much doubt that you do either.


Most hypothermia victims (from memory, and no, I don't have the stats here
to back this up, though a search may provide same) die in relatively warm
water (65-72F) because they did not have adequate protection from the cold.
This stat surprised me, but it is an indicator how people may judge themself
safe in conditions where there is still considerable risk. You and I both
know that you can stay in the water off Calif. for much longer in a wetsuit
than without. Does that ensure safety or survival - no. Still, my son can
bob along in a wetsuit for hours in 55F water, for only a few seconds
without. There is no doubt that he, along with everyone else, is safer
wearing immersion gear.

When I stated that one should "always dress for immersion," I meant exactly
that. If the water conditions threaten one's safety (temperature or weather,
or both), one should (not must) dress for those conditions. This means that
if the water is 55F that you wear those articles of clothing necessary to
ensure your self-rescue and survival. For some of us, based upon skill and
experience (and innate amount of marine mammal blubber), this means
considerably less than what is required for my 71 lb. son. Each person has
different exposure needs and should make adjustments accordingly.

Like I said before, lots
of people have died while dressed for the water as well. It is simply not
possible to look at a sea kayaking incident and know that this person

would
have survived if they had only XYZ, or that that person would not have if

they
didn't XYZ. You can't do it!


I disagree. All accidents have root causes and the severity of damages can
be assessed for their common conditions. Explosive experts can design such
to produce a variety of effects and control all of same. We are talking
about some pretty easily identifiable conditions. Though they must be
analyzed individually, accidents and their results can easily be assessed.
While I agree that potential outcomes are not predictable, when someone
capsizes and complains about the cold, it is very easy to prove that they
were inadequately dressed and that their chance of survival would be greater
if properly dressed.

Is dressing for the water a good idea. Of course! But VB has his

reasons for
dressing light, and at least I can respect that. One must assess each

scenario
on an individual basis rather then just lump the whole damn sport into big

a
pile of "you must do it this way or else!" I simply cannot accept that the

very
same rules of the sport which apply to someone doing an expedition in

Alaska
MUST be applied to someone else doing a harbor paddle in Southern

California.
Sorry, but I just don't buy it.


Again, I agree with you. Each time I go out, I decide which gear I do or do
not want to take with me, based upon a variety of conditions. One piece of
gear I always bring, however, is the wetsuit. I paddle to get wet and I
enjoy being wet more if I am comfortable in the water. Yes, there are times
when conditions have been so cold that I didn't want to practice rolls
during the paddle and did not want to be in the water, despite the
protection. There are also times when I've been way too hot and had to roll
frequently to cool off. This is my choice of how I paddle. Others want to
avoid the water and assume they will not need the protection. Fine. On a
personal basis, however, I don't want to paddle with such individuals as
they endanger me.

Actually, I consider myself to be rather open minded. Certainly much

more so
then most of the people I butt heads with on these groups. I change my

mind all
of the time as new information becomes available.
As far as my arguments go, sometimes I actually have a point. Sometimes

I
just pick a side to be contrary. I mean, do you really think that we are
solving any of the world's problems here? I like to try to make people

think
about what they are doing. Sometimes I succeed. Other times I just ****

people
off. Oh well.


Actually, you confused the issue with the previous post. I don't think I
immediately grasped your point. This post was much more eloquent and
pleasurable to read.

Rick


  #4   Report Post  
Ki Ayker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lessons from a capsize


Most hypothermia victims (from memory, and no, I don't have the stats here
to back this up, though a search may provide same) die in relatively warm
water (65-72F)


According to the ACA report, "Critical Judgment - Understanding and
Preventing Canoe and Kayak Fatalities," "In the USCG data, just over half of
all fatalities for which water temperature was known occurred in water that was
less than 65 degrees Fahrenheit." This of course refers to both kayaking and
canoeing fatalities. From my own memory I seem to recall that the overwhelming
majority of sea kayaking fatalities which I have read about generally occurred
in colder water. But I could be mistaken. Your information may apply to all
recreational boating fatalities which is neither here nor there.

This stat surprised me, but it is an indicator how people may judge themself
safe in conditions where there is still considerable risk. You and I both
know that you can stay in the water off Calif. for much longer in a wetsuit
than without. Does that ensure safety or survival - no. Still, my son can
bob along in a wetsuit for hours in 55F water, for only a few seconds
without. There is no doubt that he, along with everyone else, is safer
wearing immersion gear.


You just said that being able to spend more time in the water does not
ensure safety or survival. You also say that there is no doubt that everyone is
safer wearing immersion gear. I don't understand. What being dressed for the
water does is prolong your exposure time - that's all! Or to put it another
way, it buys you time before you die. Does this make you safer? It can. Unless
the extra protection creates a false sense of security causing people to "judge
themself safe in conditions where there is still considerable risk." Or unless
it causes people to take additional risks, such as rolling to cool down. Derek
Hutchinson is often quoted as saying something like, learning to roll is a
great success, but needing to roll is a result of failure. I am not so sure
that encouraging someone to intentionally capsize to try to get comfortable in
hot clothing is really such a good idea. But that may be yet another topic for
another time.

I disagree. All accidents have root causes and the severity of damages can
be assessed for their common conditions


Let me rehash an example I have used before. Some time ago I was ill for
about a week. I decided I needed to see the doctor. But when I called the
earliest appointment I could make was about a week away. When the day of
appointment came around I was feeling much better so I canceled the visit. Had
I been allowed to promptly get in a see the doctor when I first called then I
would have no doubt given the doctor the credit for my recovery despite the
fact that I got better just the same without him. You simply cannot account for
what the alternative outcomes might have been. If a person dies without proper
gear, you cannot say with any actual certainty that they would have survived
had they had the gear, particularly since so many have died with all of the
right gear as well.

In May two experienced paddlers that I understand were wearing drysuits and
pfd's were found dead in the water in Nootka Sound. We don't know what happened
to them to cause their deaths. We can, however, be fairly certain that their
rescue and safety gear was not much help.

While I agree that potential outcomes are not predictable, when someone
capsizes and complains about the cold, it is very easy to prove that they
were inadequately dressed and that their chance of survival would be greater
if properly dressed.


Perhaps. But how much time do you actually need? I teach kayaking year round
and generally dress for the air. I demonstrate wet exits and solo rescues in
water as low as the low fifties, and rarely wear anything more then shorts,
shirt and a paddling jacket. Do I get cold? You bet! Am I inadequately dressed
to the point of significantly reducing my chances of survival? Well, in ten
years of teaching I'm still alive. I must be doing right.
I pretty much dress the same way when I'm surfing or touring. But then, I
never even consider coming out of the boat. I can't remember the last time I
actually had to do a wet exit. But if I did I can assure you that I would
manage to get back into my boat again long before hypothermia became a problem.
Of course I'm probably a bit more competent then the average paddler. But there
again is an example that what works for me may not be right for you. I am not
telling anyone to do things the way I do. I am just saying that I know what
works for me.

This is my choice of how I paddle. Others want to
avoid the water and assume they will not need the protection. Fine. On a
personal basis, however, I don't want to paddle with such individuals as
they endanger me.


This, of course, is your choice. I, on the other hand, will paddle with just
about anybody. Just as I am confident in my ability to take care of myself, I
am equally confident in my ability to take care of the people I am with. I have
made open water crossings and played in rocks and caves and surf with complete
novices. I have performed many a rescue under a variety of circumstances and at
no time felt that I was ever in any danger from the other persons lack of skill
or preparedness. I did go on one trip with a fellow who had absolutely no
common sense whatsoever. He frighten me, and I will no longer paddle with him.

Scott
So.Cal.
  #5   Report Post  
Rick Donnelly
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lessons from a capsize


"Ki Ayker" wrote in message
...

Most hypothermia victims (from memory, and no, I don't have the stats

here
to back this up, though a search may provide same) die in relatively warm
water (65-72F)


I read this in sea kayaker many years ago. I have no idea whether I can find
the statistic or not. It was specifically a statistic derived from sea
kayaking incidents studied by the safety editor of the magizine (before Matt
Broze - though I can't recall who the author was back then).


According to the ACA report, "Critical Judgment - Understanding and
Preventing Canoe and Kayak Fatalities," "In the USCG data, just over half

of
all fatalities for which water temperature was known occurred in water

that was
less than 65 degrees Fahrenheit." This of course refers to both kayaking

and
canoeing fatalities. From my own memory I seem to recall that the

overwhelming
majority of sea kayaking fatalities which I have read about generally

occurred
in colder water. But I could be mistaken. Your information may apply to

all
recreational boating fatalities which is neither here nor there.


Canoists tend to be ill-prepared for immersion, as a group. I went on a
summer trip on a 47F river last year (I'm doing a similar trip with the
scouts this year), and the boys who fell in the water needed rescue in
seconds. Since I had the kayak and wetsuit, I was in the water constantly
extracting boys, canoes, and gear. The air was 100F or better duing the peak
of the day, dropping to the mid 90's at night. At no time was I so
uncomfortable that I felt a need to divest myself from my gear (though I did
get lots of rolling practice).

This stat surprised me, but it is an indicator how people may judge

themself
safe in conditions where there is still considerable risk. You and I both
know that you can stay in the water off Calif. for much longer in a

wetsuit
than without. Does that ensure safety or survival - no. Still, my son can
bob along in a wetsuit for hours in 55F water, for only a few seconds
without. There is no doubt that he, along with everyone else, is safer
wearing immersion gear.


You just said that being able to spend more time in the water does not
ensure safety or survival. You also say that there is no doubt that

everyone is
safer wearing immersion gear. I don't understand.


Nobody can be guaranteed rescue, we all know this. What gear can do is
ensure that you can survive longer in the water. My son, for example, would
be suffering from exposure long before I could empty his boat and get him
back into it were he to capsize without his wetsuit. This would be a serious
safety emergency simply because he is not biologically eqiupped to handle
cold as well as I am.

What being dressed for the
water does is prolong your exposure time - that's all! Or to put it

another
way, it buys you time before you die. Does this make you safer? It can.

Unless
the extra protection creates a false sense of security causing people to

"judge
themself safe in conditions where there is still considerable risk." Or

unless
it causes people to take additional risks, such as rolling to cool down.

Derek
Hutchinson is often quoted as saying something like, learning to roll is a
great success, but needing to roll is a result of failure. I am not so

sure
that encouraging someone to intentionally capsize to try to get

comfortable in
hot clothing is really such a good idea. But that may be yet another topic

for
another time.


Rolling is a skill that must be practiced. If getting a bit warm is a
motivator to practice (something that few people do on a regular basis),
than overdressing is certainly better than underdressing. You deal with the
public and I am willing to bet that even those students who learn to roll in
your program do not practice it often enough to use it when needed. This is
the case with the majority of kayakers here in the northern Ca. and is
probably the case where you are as well.


I disagree. All accidents have root causes and the severity of damages

can
be assessed for their common conditions


Let me rehash an example I have used before. Some time ago I was ill

for
about a week. I decided I needed to see the doctor. But when I called the
earliest appointment I could make was about a week away. When the day of
appointment came around I was feeling much better so I canceled the visit.

Had
I been allowed to promptly get in a see the doctor when I first called

then I
would have no doubt given the doctor the credit for my recovery despite

the
fact that I got better just the same without him. You simply cannot

account for
what the alternative outcomes might have been. If a person dies without

proper
gear, you cannot say with any actual certainty that they would have

survived
had they had the gear, particularly since so many have died with all of

the
right gear as well.


As I said, you can't prove outcomes, but you can certainly prove the
existing results. I've read too many incident reports to put aside the value
of extending one's survival time. Often, a survival suit can be a lifesaver
(such as the example where a planned day trip left the kayaker stuck on one
of the San Juan Islands overnight). While the cause of death is often listed
as drowning, hypothermia is equally as often a causal factor.

In May two experienced paddlers that I understand were wearing drysuits

and
pfd's were found dead in the water in Nootka Sound. We don't know what

happened
to them to cause their deaths. We can, however, be fairly certain that

their
rescue and safety gear was not much help.


Good point, though, as I said, nothing can guarantee survival.

While I agree that potential outcomes are not predictable, when someone
capsizes and complains about the cold, it is very easy to prove that they
were inadequately dressed and that their chance of survival would be

greater
if properly dressed.


Perhaps. But how much time do you actually need? I teach kayaking year

round
and generally dress for the air. I demonstrate wet exits and solo rescues

in
water as low as the low fifties, and rarely wear anything more then

shorts,
shirt and a paddling jacket. Do I get cold? You bet! Am I inadequately

dressed
to the point of significantly reducing my chances of survival? Well, in

ten
years of teaching I'm still alive. I must be doing right.


Training situations are rarely performed out of reach of shore, in deep
water, with few nearby resources. In conditions as you describe, just for
personal comfort, I'd wear a wetsuit, anyway (as I often have in the same
situation). Do I get cold? Not particularly. Am I overly dressed? No. This
particular conversation is more of a disagreement on what we each find more
comfortable, not what is safer. Personally, I prefer warm to cold. No doubt,
you are the opposite.

I pretty much dress the same way when I'm surfing or touring. But then,

I
never even consider coming out of the boat. I can't remember the last time

I
actually had to do a wet exit. But if I did I can assure you that I would
manage to get back into my boat again long before hypothermia became a

problem.
Of course I'm probably a bit more competent then the average paddler. But

there
again is an example that what works for me may not be right for you. I am

not
telling anyone to do things the way I do. I am just saying that I know

what
works for me.


What you do, as an expert boat handler, and what the needs of others are,
are at extreme opposites of the spectrum. I won't advocate dressing in less
than "adequate" immersion protection (which I will let the individual boater
decide for themselves) because the majority of boaters need it. I've had to
pull too many folks from the water and, invariably, they are all showing
severe signs of hypothermia: shivering, teeth chattering, cyanosis,
disrupted thought, and an irrational misunderstanding of how they reached
this state. As someone who hasn't had to do the rescues I've done, you
probably have a different perspective.

This is my choice of how I paddle. Others want to
avoid the water and assume they will not need the protection. Fine. On a
personal basis, however, I don't want to paddle with such individuals as
they endanger me.


This, of course, is your choice. I, on the other hand, will paddle with

just
about anybody. Just as I am confident in my ability to take care of

myself, I
am equally confident in my ability to take care of the people I am with. I

have
made open water crossings and played in rocks and caves and surf with

complete
novices. I have performed many a rescue under a variety of circumstances

and at
no time felt that I was ever in any danger from the other persons lack of

skill
or preparedness. I did go on one trip with a fellow who had absolutely no
common sense whatsoever. He frighten me, and I will no longer paddle with

him.


Scott, you may well be the best paddler on earth. I'll hand you the Ed
Gillette badge of skill and recommend that the San Diego Nudists only go
kayaking with you. I have no doubt that they'll be in good hands. On a
personal basis, I neither want, nor desire, to perform any more real
rescues. They are dangerous, scary, and the outcomes are often not what one
wishes to experience.

Rick


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