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Parallax
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive
  #2   Report Post  
William R. Watt
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

Parallax ) writes:
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.


I did some research at the public library and in this newsgroup before
building my first small plywood boat in 1999. Any home repair book at the
public library will have a section on adhesives although they don't deal
specifically with boats. At that time I used screws and urea formaldehyde
adhesive, a water resistent plastic resin first used in the 1930's on
plywood motor torpedo boats and plywood airplanes in the war and still
used in the manufacture of plywood, predating epoxide resins (I used a
local Canadian brand but its sold in the USA as Weldwood dry powder marine
glue) Not gap filling on its own but sold in a compound suitable for
plywood lamiating, and needs 70 deg temp and clamping or screwing for 8
hrs to cure. My avoidance of epoxy caused a lot of noise among epoxy
promoters on this newsgroup, which like what kind of plywood to use on a
boat, is a constant source of mixed opinion, mostly because not all boats
are the same and therefore do not have the same materials requirements.


Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.


I've used Bulldog brand's PL Premuim, their "strongest" polyurehtane
construction adhesive. Comes in a tube. Squeeze out with a caulking gun
and spread with a putty knife. As you noted these glues stick to the hands
for days. I've used it on two small plywood boats along with screws, then
sealed the seams with small amounts unreinforced polyester or epoxy resin
painted over, for abraision resistence and to keep water away from the PL
Premuim. I don't use it to seal the edges of plywood, preferring
polyester or epxoy for that.


West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.


Every couple of years I buy a $5 bubble pack of two small toothpaste tubes
of household epxoy adhesive (tube of resin, tube of hardener, mix in equal
amounts) at the discount store (Elmer brand) for repairs around the house
and boats, also for sealing edges of boat plywood, and for small rust
spots on the car.


MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive


Bondo and "conventional fibreglass" are both polyester resin. Polyester
occurs in many places, in fabric (eg Dacron/Tyrelene sail cloth) and as
tire cords. there is even a polyester drapery tape you can buy at fabric
stores which I and a few others have tried instead of fibreglass cloth for
unconventional fibreglass taping. Polyester resin adheres like paint and
plaster, probably better, but, like paint and plaster, is not good at
gluing things together. I sometimes help it adhere by drilling small holes
in the surface. Many boatbuilders will say not to use it on wooden boats.
I use it on my small wooden boats for abraision resistance and for filling
and in one case for taped seam butt joints which are still surprizingly
holding, just like I use it on rust repairs on the car. It requires more
careful surface prepartion than epoxy resin because epoxy will stick to
anything solid except plastic and maybe some other stuff I don't know
about. In small quantities polyester is a lot cheaper than epxoy. In
larger quantities polyester is still cheaper, not as much on a percentage
basis but then with large quatities we are talking large amounts of money
so in abolute terms it is still a lot cheaper. On large boats the
difference as a percentage of the total cost of the boat is not so great.
That is because small boats are mostly hull but big boat hulls are just
containers for a lot of expensive accomodations, electronics, sails,
motors, artwork and other stuff on which silly buggers waste money.

Most of my repair and pathing work is so small its not cost but amount
needed which determines whether I use polyester or epoxy. The least amount
of polyester I mix is 1/2 teaspoon because that uses 1 drop of hardener.
So if I need less than that to seal a spot on a boat I'll mix a drop or
two of epoxy instead of miximg more polyester than I need.

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James
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

Epoxy is not THAT expensive. It used to be... but in recent years, it has
got cheaper in comparison to other glues.
Collodial is only one of many "thickeners" for epoxy... and probably the
worst for making a "non sag" mix

It will take you as near as dammit the same time to build something whatever
glue you use.
How much money will be SAVED for each project if you use cheaper glue?
Divide that by hours building time..
Last time i worked this out for a specific job.. I could have used flour
and water for glue... and still only save 21 pence an hour.
I value my time and effort sufficiently to spend 21p an hour enabling the
product to last more than 12 months!




"Parallax" wrote in message
om...
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive



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Steve Lusardi
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.
Steve

"Parallax" wrote in message
om...
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive



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Lew Hodgett
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues


"Steve Lusardi" writes:

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.


5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel.

None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291 can
be used for diesel.

The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika.

As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following:

Resorcinol is required for white oak.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.

After that, it's all down hill.

If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should
look for another hobby.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures




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Brian D
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

Although 5200 is a great product, and even seals tighter when wet, I do not
believe it sticks very well to UHMW either. And for those interested in
5200, note that 3M also makes a faster curing version (like 1 week instead
of 2). I think it's something like 4200? Can't remember... I only use
5200 for sealing things that won't be coming off again (hopefully).
Officially, it is an adhesive caulk, not an adhesive.

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Steve Lusardi" writes:

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like

to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is

the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is

required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components.

It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of

all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.


5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel.

None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291

can
be used for diesel.

The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika.

As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following:

Resorcinol is required for white oak.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.

After that, it's all down hill.

If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should
look for another hobby.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the

Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures




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Meindert Sprang
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

"Parallax" wrote in message
om...
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.


Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a
clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite
difficult to apply over a long seam.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.


You are using the wrong filler here. For gap filling use microfibres. And
epoxy is not that expensive. It is only a part of the total buiding cost.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive


You're talking about polyester here. Stay away from it for glueing.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and use epoxy. Once you get the hang of it
in using the pumps, stirring it properly and adding the right amount of
filler, you'll never want to use something else.

Meindert


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Meindert Sprang
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

Resorcinol is required for white oak.


But requires a tight fit and high clamping force. Epoxy will do as long as
you sand the oak with grit 60 across the grain to provide enough 'bite' for
the epoxy.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.


Yep.

Meindert


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David Flew
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

I can't translate products to USA brands, but I've used epoxy and urethanes-
and I feel urethane has a place in boats. Not saying hulls or wet areas,
but there are plenty of other parts which have moderate strength
requirements, need to be moisture resistant, and are subject to some
movement. Urethane in a cartridge is convenient, gap filling, possibly
dearer than equivalent volume of epoxy, easy to remove the squeeze-out.
Easy clean-up ( except for the brown marks on my hands when I decide I
won't bother to wear the disposable gloves ..... ). For example, my new
engine cover was ply glued up with AV515 urethane. It didn't need the
strength of epoxy, and it was easier to clean up the squeeze-out than epoxy.
It's horses for courses.
David



"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Steve Lusardi" writes:

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like

to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is

the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is

required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components.

It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of

all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.


5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel.

None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291

can
be used for diesel.

The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika.

As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following:

Resorcinol is required for white oak.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.

After that, it's all down hill.

If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should
look for another hobby.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the

Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures




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William R. Watt
 
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Default Resins, Fillers and glues

"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:

Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a
clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite
difficult to apply over a long seam.


could you say where this clamping pressure information comes from? there
is nothing about it in the PL Premium directions. this house construction
mastic form of the adhesive is supposed to work on materials which are
nailed together and for attaching sheets of foam with just a few nails to
hold it in place until the glue cures. I've used it on small glue-ups with
only the weight of a brick to hold the pieces together until it cures.

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