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  #61   Report Post  
Frank Maier
 
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DSK wrote:
....snip...
Best thing to do with trolls is ignore them though.


Of course, this is the best advice; but we're (all) only human. It may
be cruel; but sometimes I just *hafta* comment/respond when it comes
to Jax et al.

I mean, without Jax, we wouldn't know that dead reckoning is illegal,
that the Gulf Stream is extremely difficult to find, that you can sail
upwind under bare poles because of "vectors," and on, and on.

For me, the amusement value is worth the price of admission (cluttered
bandwidth). Mostly.

Frank
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Frank Maier
 
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DSK wrote:
....snip...
Best thing to do with trolls is ignore them though.


That is, of course, the best thing to do; but we're (all) only human.
Cruel as it may be, I sometimes just *hafta* reply to something Jax or
one of the other loons says. Ya gotta love 'em.

How else would we know that it's illegal to use dead reckoning? Or
that the Gulf Stream is extremely difficult to find? Or that you can
sail upwind under bare poles because of "vectors?" And an endless
stream of other outre bits.

Frank
  #63   Report Post  
DSK
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

WaIIy wrote:
You have one beautiful boat.


Thank you, WaIIy. It's a great boat, a bit more varnish than ideal, but
we are having a marvelous time with it and genuinely appreciate all
compliments.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

  #64   Report Post  
DSK
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

(some snippage for brevity)

Bob Whitaker wrote:
Thanks for the input. What are the features you like most about them?


Frank Maier wrote:
The boat which owns my heart, my "Platonic ideal" best boat, is the
Freedom 38. I fell in love with Freedoms after about 20 years of
sailing, both racing and cruising. When Garry Hoyt/Freedom/TPI
produced these boats, it was, for me, an epiphany. Holy ****! Why
hasn't this been done before? Well, it sorta had been. Catboats have
been around for quite a while. Just materials, like carbonfiber masts,
and specifics of design were the innovations which Hoyt gave us with
the Freedom line.


Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.

http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/


... To give you a "sales pitch" for the idea of buying a
Freedom 32...

The single "best" feature of Freedoms is their single-handing ability.
Even the 'chute can be flown by one person, launched and doused from
the cockpit. Their construction is second to none (built by TPI). They
have no standing rigging, which means no holes through your deck to
admit water, nothing to break, and nothing to replace every decade or
so. I've never sailed a 32 specifically. I've been in pretty nasty
squally weather on a 30 and a 36 (which is the 38 without the
sugarscoop). Thye use single-line reefing, which again speaks to
convenience for a single-hander and makes it easy to respond swiftly
to deteriorating conditions. (Or easy to catch up if you kinda stay
overcanvassed too long and get behind. Something which I have a
tendency to be guilty of.)

There are a lot of fine boats out there; but Freedom is at/near the
top of my personal list. However, like I said, given my prejudices,
the Crealock, Cape Dory, et al. are boats which are nowhere near my
list, not even at the bottom, although you and many others find them
attractive.


The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

  #65   Report Post  
Frank Maier
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

DSK wrote:
(some snippage for brevity)
Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.
http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/


....snip...

Yes. The Gary Mull design. It's interesting to me that you included
this particular link. This boat is/was "Nereid" and recently sold here
in Seattle for less than $60K. Broke my heart to pass it up. (Note:
most F38's are asking over $100K up to around $125K.) Nereid's
previous owner purchased a F44 (kind of a stretched 40 with a fin
rather than centerboard and a skeg-hung rudder rather than the
stern-hung of the 40) in New Orleans and is currently working on that
boat in preparation for "heading out." His website is
http://www.brigup.com if you're interested in his experiences.

I took a hard look at both this boat and the F44 in New Orleans before
we made a family decision to RV around the U.S. for a couple of years
now, before going cruising; so it was an interesting karma-type thing
for me that the New Orleans F44 was bought by the Seattle F38 guy. We
have two kids, so the roominess of the 44 is attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.


Here's one of those areas where I agree with you, in opposition to
"conventional cruising wisdom." When people like the Pardeys start
with a heavy, slow boat and then recommend that you use a roachless,
battenless main to power it... Ack! I just gotta cringe.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.


Agreed. Much as I'm anti-crabcrusher, I agree that I'd be willing to
have a F40, although I do prefer the design after Halsey Herreshoff
helped Hoyt clean up that "pirate ship" look of his prototype 40 a
bit. I think we've touched on this a bit before, maybe in
alt.sailing.asa?

The newest Freedom offerings, designed by Pedrick, are, IMO, growing
back toward mediocrity and away from Hoyt's innovation. I mean, you
can now get 'em with running backs in order to fly gennys. That's not
the Freedom concept. And at the prices, I could just as well buy a
nice used Swan, if I want a boat with standing rigging.

And that's my $.02,

Frank


  #66   Report Post  
Matt/Meribeth Pedersen
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser


"Bob Whitaker" wrote in message
om...

Wow, impressive list of boats! Thanks for the post! I'd be interested
in knowing which of these you liked best and which you've had the
opportunity to sail under reduced sail and how they handled. I'm very
interested in your comments, specially about pros and cons of
centerboards. I just thought it might be yet another thing that could
break down so I wasn't considering centerboard boats for my dream trip
(even if it meant missing out on shallow anchorages). I may start a
new thread on this topic one of these days, seeing as the original
post turned into mud-slinging central.


I think the Morgan 34 (and the CCA era M33, not the Out Island) are
pretty good boats. The Tartan has a nice reputation but the
centerboard doesn't kick up if you run aground and it can
be hard to repair the mechanism if you ground hard and bend something.
The Morgan 34 CB doesn't kick up either, but if you do break
something it is relatively easy to fix since it's a cable mechanism.

I have sailed on the Alberg 35, Ericson 35, C&C 34 (deep keel),
Ranger 33 and Yankee 30. All of them are decent boats but the C&C
is more squirrely than I like going dead downwind. I think the
Ranger 33 is probably the best sailing boat of the bunch, it really
has no vices. I extensively crewed on a Ranger 33 for a number
of years, racing in all weathers. It was my first experience with a
keel boat that stayed on its feet in heavy air downwind.. A friend
who owned one swears by them..
You might get arguments from owners of the Ericson 35 that they
are just as good as the Ranger, but I don't have the heavy air miles
on one to confirm the opinion ( and I'm thinking of the Bruce King
designed Mark II version here). The Yankee 30 also has a good
rep but again my only experience with them is in relatively light
air. They are popular in San Francisco, which tells me they
do pretty well in a breeze. I do like the Ericson 35 a little more
for cruising than the Ranger, the interior and engine access is just
marginally enough nicer that it tips the scales to the Ericson.

All the boats listed will not be a floating condo - don't expect a lot of
room, and some may seem even smaller than the Cal 34.

Random thoughts on the boats I haven't sailed:

The Allied Seawind was the first fiberglass boat to do a circumnavigation,
and I like Tom Gilmer as a designer so it's got to be a good boat

The Luders 34 and Alberg 37 are really pretty boats, but I can't comment
on their handling.

I haven't sailed on the Douglas 32 but it's reportedly a good light air boat
and I think Ted Brewer thought it was one of his better designs.

I have a friend with a Mercator 30 who has taken it to Alaska several
times. Nice boat, enormous V-berth, has a little weather helm.
They are not well known outside of the Pacific Northwest, but at least
one has done a circumnavigation. They could use a little more sail
area, but do make nice cruisers.

The Nich 32 is stout, lots of room for a 32'er and even with her bluff
bow will do pretty well going to windward.

As far a centerboard boats go, for a trip in the Gulf/Florida/Bahamas
I think it's almost a requirement. Not so much for some of the Caribbean.
The big disadvantage is of course the added maintenence of the board
and it's raising/lowering mechanism. That and they can clunk around
in the slot in a seaway, which I always found disconcerting. They
do help you go to windward if your sails are up to it, but there
are many people who glass the board in place and forget about
sailing close winded. I wouldn't, but then I hate sailing boats
that don't go to weather well.

Of course, seaworthiness is always an issue with centerboard boats.
Deep keels have more favorable wieght distribution for resisting
and recovery from capsize. A competent, well prepared crew
should be able to make a centerboarder work for the type of trip
your thinking of though. It wouldn't be my choice for a
circumnavigation, but would be for for Gulf cruising.

AFter the Fastnet storm of 79, there was a lot of research done
on characteristics that help or hinder capsize. One fallout of that
was a capsize screen formula. It is

Beam (feet) divided by displacement^.3333 (displacement to
the 1/3 power, displacement in cubic feet). The result of
this formula should be a value less than 2. I have always
argued that the formula is a little simplistic because it doesn't
take into account ballast placement (you could have 4000
pounds of lead at the top of the mast and the formula would
say you have a seaworthy boat). However, for the boats
under discussion it should give good results.

That's about it for now. Follow up if you'd like, and hopefully
the discussion won't go off track like an IOR boat in a breeze again.

Matt


  #67   Report Post  
Marc
 
Posts: n/a
Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36


On 16 Mar 2004 21:15:42 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

DSK wrote:
(some snippage for brevity)
Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.
http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/

...snip...

Yes. The Gary Mull design. It's interesting to me that you included
this particular link. This boat is/was "Nereid" and recently sold here
in Seattle for less than $60K. Broke my heart to pass it up. (Note:
most F38's are asking over $100K up to around $125K.) Nereid's
previous owner purchased a F44 (kind of a stretched 40 with a fin
rather than centerboard and a skeg-hung rudder rather than the
stern-hung of the 40) in New Orleans and is currently working on that
boat in preparation for "heading out." His website is
http://www.brigup.com if you're interested in his experiences.

I took a hard look at both this boat and the F44 in New Orleans before
we made a family decision to RV around the U.S. for a couple of years
now, before going cruising; so it was an interesting karma-type thing
for me that the New Orleans F44 was bought by the Seattle F38 guy. We
have two kids, so the roominess of the 44 is attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.


Here's one of those areas where I agree with you, in opposition to
"conventional cruising wisdom." When people like the Pardeys start
with a heavy, slow boat and then recommend that you use a roachless,
battenless main to power it... Ack! I just gotta cringe.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.


Agreed. Much as I'm anti-crabcrusher, I agree that I'd be willing to
have a F40, although I do prefer the design after Halsey Herreshoff
helped Hoyt clean up that "pirate ship" look of his prototype 40 a
bit. I think we've touched on this a bit before, maybe in
alt.sailing.asa?

The newest Freedom offerings, designed by Pedrick, are, IMO, growing
back toward mediocrity and away from Hoyt's innovation. I mean, you
can now get 'em with running backs in order to fly gennys. That's not
the Freedom concept. And at the prices, I could just as well buy a
nice used Swan, if I want a boat with standing rigging.

And that's my $.02,

Frank


  #68   Report Post  
DSK
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote:
I think the Morgan 34 (and the CCA era M33, not the Out Island) are
pretty good boats. The Tartan has a nice reputation but the
centerboard doesn't kick up if you run aground and it can
be hard to repair the mechanism if you ground hard and bend something.
The Morgan 34 CB doesn't kick up either, but if you do break
something it is relatively easy to fix since it's a cable mechanism.




You might get arguments from owners of the Ericson 35 that they
are just as good as the Ranger, but I don't have the heavy air miles
on one to confirm the opinion ( and I'm thinking of the Bruce King
designed Mark II version here).


Pretty comparable boats in many ways, but IMHO the Ranger is a little
better looking and the Ericson is better built. The Ranger is more
likely to be found at the lower end of the price range, too (not a
judgement on them).


As far a centerboard boats go, for a trip in the Gulf/Florida/Bahamas
I think it's almost a requirement. Not so much for some of the Caribbean.
The big disadvantage is of course the added maintenence of the board
and it's raising/lowering mechanism.



Sure the centerboard is a maintenance item, and some are easier & more
reliable than others. IMHO it is well worth the added capability... when
we talk about cruising with people who have deep draft boats, they
usually say "We can go anywhere we want" dismissively... but then it
turns out that there is a long long list of nice places that they "don't
want" to go...

I also consider it a safety issue, in that you have more options with
less draft.


... That and they can clunk around
in the slot in a seaway, which I always found disconcerting.


That can be fixed relatively easily, depending on the board design.

... They
do help you go to windward if your sails are up to it, but there
are many people who glass the board in place and forget about
sailing close winded. I wouldn't, but then I hate sailing boats
that don't go to weather well.


Agreed. Getting trapped on a lee shore is guaranteed bad day.


Of course, seaworthiness is always an issue with centerboard boats.
Deep keels have more favorable wieght distribution for resisting
and recovery from capsize. A competent, well prepared crew
should be able to make a centerboarder work for the type of trip
your thinking of though. It wouldn't be my choice for a
circumnavigation, but would be for for Gulf cruising.


The big issue I see here is the Center of Gravity (specifically, where
it is located vertically) and it's impact on the Limit of Positive
Stability. It's a lot easier to get a good LPOS if you can put the
ballast nice and low. But the old fashioned centerboarders, somewhat
narrow by modern standards, with strong sheer and narrow sterns, can
have a better LPOS in practice than a modern boat with high sides and
wide transom.

That's in theory... in practice, when this is an issue, it's more
important to make sure you don't get conked in the head by a flying soup
can... not on most people's list of seaworthiness issues


AFter the Fastnet storm of 79, there was a lot of research done
on characteristics that help or hinder capsize. One fallout of that
was a capsize screen formula. It is

Beam (feet) divided by displacement^.3333 (displacement to
the 1/3 power, displacement in cubic feet). The result of
this formula should be a value less than 2. I have always
argued that the formula is a little simplistic because it doesn't
take into account ballast placement (you could have 4000
pounds of lead at the top of the mast and the formula would
say you have a seaworthy boat). However, for the boats
under discussion it should give good results.


Yes, the point of the capsize screen formula (or ratio) is to compare
similar boats... not to scale seaworthiness. In the absence of more
detailed data, the CSR and the ballast/disp ratio can tell a lot about a
boats hardiness for rough weather. And there are so many other
seaworthiness considerations... the rig, the hatches, the stowage, etc
etc... that it's easy to give this too much weight.

BTW I noticed that nobody has yet mentioned "small cockpits" or
recommended double enders...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

  #69   Report Post  
Frank Maier
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

Marc wrote:
Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36


Hi, Marc,

I did not see a survey for Nereid; but I did do a pretty thorough
personal walk-through. She seemed to me to be in excellent shape. My
opinion is that the owner was sinking money into his new project much
faster than he had hoped and was simply desperate to sell Nereid. And,
unlike the East Coast, the Northwest is a geographically self-limited
market.

Frank
  #70   Report Post  
Frank Maier
 
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Default Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

"Matt/Meribeth Pedersen" wrote:
....lotta good commentary snipped for space...

Of the boats Matt mentions, I'd enthusiastically support the Ranger or
the C&C. I owned a Ranger 29 for a coupla years and a C&C 34 for a
coupla years. Either one would make my list of "boats I'd be willling
to own." Guess I should add "again" to that statement.

Matt also alludes to the bad designs which were spawned under the IOR
rules of the 70s and which culminated in rule changes after the
Fastnet disaster. Remember, however, that it wasn't just fin-keeled
IOR freak designs which were eaten by that storm. Lotta "blue water
cruisers" fared poorly, too. Conversely, there were two J-30s in that
storm and they survived easily; one was a single-hander. I doubt
anyone would consider the J-30 as a "blue water cruiser;" but
considering its performance in those circumstances, compared to a lot
of other designs, ya gotta give it snaps. Pretty low on the "creature
comforts" scale, however.

Of the others, I have no experience with some he mentions; but most
are not boats which I personally favor. Alberg, Allied, and Nicholson
are all boats which would completely fail to make my personal list;
too heavy for my taste. And I'd debate the windward ability of the
Nicholson. Oh, and while the sailing ability of the Newport is good
because the basic design is by C&C, their build quality is, IMO, the
worst in the business. That'd drop Newport off my list.

But at this point I'm quibbling from my prejudices. Matt has
contributed some great info here and I appreciate reading his comments
and opinions. Threads on Usenet almost always go squirrelly; but the
good ones retain a core of useful information and reasoned debate.

Frank
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