MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40

[Bobsprit]

but don't delude yourself
that while the previous boat may have been junk the new one is totally
different.>>


Jim, I saw the M at the AC boat show. It's the same junk, built just as lightly
as the original 26X. It's slightly reformed Junk.

RB

[Bobsprit]

However, I read comments by one of the participants,
and he didn't seem to have any ulterior or deceptful motives.>>


For god's sake, Jim. It's an AD.

RB

[Bobsprit]

I would like to seem some semblance of logic, rationality and
intellectual honesty, however. - Like, for starters, talking about the
same boat I'm talking about.>>


Jim, few "sailors" favor the Mac. To them it's both ugly and ungainly. It won't
sail well compared to a traditional sailing vessel and this is a "sailing NG,
so the responses are easy to understand. About the only place where you might
find favor is in a Mac26 discussion group.
I've responded to your comments honestly and thoughtfully. It's a boat. If you
like it, buy it.
I'm out of this one, folks.

RB
C&C 32
City Island, NY

[Bobsprit]

If the (OLD) 26X is rated at 216 and the (NEW) 26M is 20-30%
faster (make it easier, say it's 20% faster) what would it's rating be?
Think carefully before you answer. >>


Well done, John.

RB

[Bobsprit]

Careful Jon, the older Macs (pre X ) were pretty good little boats.>>>


The older Macs, like Coronado's and a few other low end makes were built at the
lowest price point possible and were passable at best.
A "pretty good little boat" is a C&C 25, Cape Dory 25, Pearson 26 and so on.

RB

[Scott Vernon]

Careful Jon, the older Macs (pre X ) were pretty good little boats.

SV

"Jonathan Ganz" > wrote in message
...
> Well, the Mac line of boats are bottom of the barrel. Not sure what
> else "we" can tell you. If you like/want the compromise, go for it.
> At this point, I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well, this discussion string is now up to around 250 responses, not
> > including my own. It's interesting that no one has commented on my
> > initial "both and" rather than "either or" plan. As you may recall, I
> > stated that:
> >
> > > A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > >> still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> > >> kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > >> conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
> Mac.
> > >> (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours
on
> > >> a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > >> fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used
> 30
> > >> - 32-foot boats.
> >
> > In other words, my plan was to consider getting a 26M Mac for: (1) it's
> > obvious advantages in shallow bay waters and close-in coastal cruising
> > (such as, for fishing, and for getting to fishing or sailing areas
> > quickly and for returning quickly, for anchoring in areas where small
> > childred (grandkids) could swim, for beaching on local islands, etc.),
> > AND ALSO (2) to continue to charter larger boats for more extended
> > cruising without the younger (3 to 5 year old) set.
> >
> > In any event, it's obvious that my note and my refusal to "cave" are
> > either generating increasing frustration or providing some perverse form
> > of pleasure to participants in this discussion string.
> > (No one, after all, is required to participate.)
> >
> > Again, I'm not asking for agreement or "approval" or even acquiescence.
> > I would like to seem some semblance of logic, rationality and
> > intellectual honesty, however. - Like, for starters, talking about the
> > same boat I'm talking about.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Cate wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
> > > area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
> > > on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> > >
> > > For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have
some
> > > advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> > > regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> > > sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and
doing
> > > some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> > > will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
> > > get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> > > than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> > > issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> > > hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
> > > ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> > > islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant,
although
> > > a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots
under
> > > motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina
to
> > > the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> > > finder.)
> > >
> > > OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> > > anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
> > > the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
> > > now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel
(which
> > > I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> > > extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> > > reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> > > and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the
years.
> > > As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> > > comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
> > > much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the
video.)
> > > With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> > > can reportedly plane under sail.
> > >
> > > A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > > still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> > > kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > > conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
Mac.
> > > (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours
on
> > > a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > > fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used
30
> > > - 32-foot boats.
> > >
> > > Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring
characteristics
> > > of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

Saweeeet! Love those fenders.

Scotty

"Remco Moedt" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:16:53 -0600, Jim Cate > wrote:
>
> >IMO. I don't think you can call any 26-foot boat beautiful
>
>
> I think this 26 is quite nice:
>
>
> http://huizen.dds.nl/~bonekamp/boot1.jpg
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Remco
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

Back when I was on the Mac list there was a few who raced them, one guy
filled in the swingboard trunk with something . Claimed more speed from it.
They modified them quite extensively to race.

Scotty

"Jeff Morris" > wrote in message
...
> I've seen the 26X rated at both 220 and 249. Maybe there's a fleet that
allows
> racing without the water ballast. Its also possible that the V-bottom
allows
> for the daggerboard to be raised when reaching, which could account for
> considerable improvement in some situations.
>
> BTW, there are several 26X's that I see in Boston harbor, one has a slip
near
> me, another used to come down the Charles River every Saturday morning,
headed
> for the outer harbor. I've been somewhat impressed that the large engine
gives
> them the ability to pick destinations 10 or 12 miles away. However, when
I
> catch up with them later in the morning after they've raised sail, I've
never
> actually seen them moving in the water. As near as I can tell, they power
out,
> raised sail, bob around for a while, then power to their destination.
Frankly,
> there's nothing wrong with this, if its what you want to do. But it isn't
> sailing
>
>
>
>
> "John Cairns" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim Cate wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John Cairns wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> The new boat is probably only slightly less of a pig under sail
than
> > > >> the old
> > > >> boat, if you want to verify this, I'm sure you'll find at least one
Mac
> > > >> broker that has an M in stock and will be happy to take you out for
a
> > > >> test
> > > >> sail. I have one of the NE phrf lists, it rates this boat(26X) at
216
> > > >> which
> > > >> is probably charitable. You do the math. If it is indeed 20 to 30%
> > faster
> > > >> than the old model, what would it's rating be?
> > > >> John Cairns
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that you don't have much interest in the facts, but the
26X IS
> > > > the "old" model. The "new" model is the 26M. In other words, your
stats
> > > > are either six years out of date or bass-ass-backwards.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > >
> > > No responses to this note?
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
> > Yes, read the post carefully. I think everyone here knows that the 26M
is
> > the "new" model. I bracket the new, because for all intents and
purposes,
> > this is the same boat as the 26X, regardless of all the clever
advertising
> > blurbs. These are the specs for the 26X, at least 6 years old.
> > http://old.cruisingworld.com/ssbk/macgr26x.htm
> >
> > Now compare and contrast these numbers to the "new" 26M
> > http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sailing-specifications.html
> >
> > Hmm. Interesting. Roger must be the greatest NA in history if he got
boat A
> > to go faster than boat B simply by making a few subtle design changes to
the
> > underbody. But I digress. You think that it(26M) is a boat worthy of
your
> > serious consideration, why don't you take one out for a test sail and
give
> > us all of the details. I noticed that you never answered MY question,
and it
> > wasn't rhetorical, it was a serious suggestion. And the other question
was
> > serious also. If the (OLD) 26X is rated at 216 and the (NEW) 26M is
20-30%
> > faster (make it easier, say it's 20% faster) what would it's rating be?
> > Think carefully before you answer. And no, we won't discuss how fast or
> > stable or maneuverable it is under power, because, after all, this is a
> > SAILING newsgroup, if we really concerned about how our boats handled
under
> > power we would own POWERBOATS.
> >
> > John Cairns
> >
> >
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

You're a lawyer? That would explain a lot.

SV


"Jim Cate" > wrote
>
> (As an
> attorney, I would say that he sounded believable and plausable.)

[DSK]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Careful Jon, the older Macs (pre X ) were pretty good little boats.

Yeah, what he said!

Xtually the Mac26 PowR-SailR isn't a bad boat if you understand it's limits and
agree with the basic design philosophy. MacGregor has always built their boats
to be very inexpensive but that doesn't necessarily make them bad, or flimsy.
There are a heck of a lot of 20 and 30 year old Ventures & MacGregors out there
sailing.

Most of the older MacGregor models sail fairly well. Some are quite good, the
Mac 25, which was the predecessor to the older water ballast 26, has left many a
more expensive & prestigious yacht in it's wake.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

[Scott Vernon]

When a car ad claims 'top speed' and 'zero to 60' speeds, do you think
they're testing them with 4 adults , a full gas tank and a trunk full of
luggage?

SV


"Bobsprit" > wrote ...
> Where did you read or hear that
> MacGregor claimed the boat would make 25 mph with four adults, or with
> water ballast? Again, honesty, rationality? - Or would being honest
> take away all the fun?>>

[Scott Vernon]

"Bobsprit" > wrote
>
>
> Jim, I saw the M at the AC boat show. It's the same junk, built just as
lightly
> as the original 26X. It's slightly reformed Junk.
>

and yet, Macs have sailed to the Bahamas and to Hawaii. How far have you
sailed Bob?

[Martin Baxter]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Saweeeet! Love those fenders.
>
> Scotty
>

My wife would get all cranky when I showed her how much
brightwork she had to look after.

Cheers
Marty

[Bobsprit]

and yet, Macs have sailed to the Bahamas and to Hawaii. How far have you
sailed Bob?>>


Dugout canoes and make-shift rafts have made those trips. Please explain to
everyone why you find the 26M and X so appealing. Outside of Jim you're the
only one who thinks this way.
As far as distance sailed, I did get to the Thimble Islands last summer, did
some of the Jersey Coast, logged plenty of daysails, overnighters and so on.
Pretty much what most people do. Let the group understand why you think this
has any bearing on the quality of the Mac sailboats.

We're all awaiting your thoughtful answers.

RB

[Bobsprit]

which was the predecessor to the older water ballast 26, has left many a
more expensive & prestigious yacht in it's wake.>>>

Meaning what exactly? A Mac 25 will outrun a Dana 24 as well.
I guess you'd call the Mac a "better" boat.

RB

[Bobsprit]

Xtually the Mac26 PowR-SailR isn't a bad boat if you understand it's limit>>

How PC is this comment? Let's look at these so called "limits."

Mac 26X or M

Ugly design
Very light build quality
Poor sailing performance
Poor power boat performance
Not cheap compared to better used boats

Yeah...I guess if you're okay with that, then the Mac26 is GREAT! I also have a
1983 OMC saildrive for sale...great if you understand it's limits.

RB

RB

[Bobsprit]

When a car ad claims 'top speed' and 'zero to 60' speeds, do you think
they're testing them with 4 adults , a full gas tank and a trunk full of
luggage?>>>

Most cars don't lose half of their speed potential when passengers are added.
With three passengers the Mac26m dropped to 13 knots in tests. See the website!
Try again, Scotty. Still, you should look into becoming a Mac dealer.

RB

[Bobsprit]

Please repost where I wrote that.>>

You've been defending the Mac X and M. Fact.
Sorry. Both sides of the rail doesn't suit you.

RB

[DSK]

> which was the predecessor to the older water ballast 26, has left many a
> more expensive & prestigious yacht in it's wake.>>>
>
>
> Bobsprit wrote:
> Meaning what exactly? A Mac 25 will outrun a Dana 24 as well.
> I guess you'd call the Mac a "better" boat.

For some purposes, it is definitely a better boat. For others, it may not
be. You got a problem with that?

Is the Mac25 a better boat than a C&C 32 that never sails and has a host of
long term structural problems?

Maybe you should argue about it with Marc and BittyBill. Jax could referee
it.

DSK

[Scott Vernon]

Isn't the M25 in the Sail hall of fame? Ever seen a Mac/Venture 23' cutter
rigged? Cool looking boat.

Scotty

SV

"DSK" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > Careful Jon, the older Macs (pre X ) were pretty good little boats.
>
> Yeah, what he said!
>
> Xtually the Mac26 PowR-SailR isn't a bad boat if you understand it's
limits and
> agree with the basic design philosophy. MacGregor has always built their
boats
> to be very inexpensive but that doesn't necessarily make them bad, or
flimsy.
> There are a heck of a lot of 20 and 30 year old Ventures & MacGregors out
there
> sailing.
>
> Most of the older MacGregor models sail fairly well. Some are quite good,
the
> Mac 25, which was the predecessor to the older water ballast 26, has left
many a
> more expensive & prestigious yacht in it's wake.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>

[Bobsprit]

Back when I was on the Mac list there was a few who raced them, one guy
filled in the swingboard trunk with something . Claimed more speed from it.>>>


Dilithium cyrstals?


RB

[Bobsprit]

Yer a regular Josh Slocum, ain't ya?>>


Ah, well. Same old tune from Scotty...and no real answer as usual.

RB

[Scott Vernon]

Please repost where I wrote that.


"Bobsprit" > wrote >
>
> Please explain to
> everyone why you find the 26M and X so appealing.

[Scott Vernon]

Yer a regular Josh Slocum, ain't ya?

"Bobsprit" > wrote
> As far as distance sailed, I did get to the Thimble Islands last summer,
did
> some of the Jersey Coast, logged plenty of daysails, overnighters and so
on.

[Martin Baxter]

Bobsprit wrote:


>
> We're all awaiting your thoughtful answers.
>

Not really.

Cheers
Marty

[DSK]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Isn't the M25 in the Sail hall of fame? Ever seen a Mac/Venture 23' cutter
> rigged? Cool looking boat.

Yes, the "Venture of Newport" which was intended to cash in on the growing
popularity of classic boats at that time.

Not to disillusion you Scott but it is really just a Venture 21 with a bowsprit
& quarter rail screwed on. It is pretty cool looking though. There is one that
sails a lake nearby, the owner has changed it to a quasi-gaff rig, added a row
of bronze portholes, and some other old-timey nautical gear. Makes you want to
grab a rusty cutlass and shout "Argh, matey!"

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

[Scott Vernon]

Name another boat in this size/price range that can be trailered, sailed,
motored as fast, has as much cabin space.

Take a few days, then get back to me.

SV

"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> Xtually the Mac26 PowR-SailR isn't a bad boat if you understand it's
limit>>
>
> How PC is this comment? Let's look at these so called "limits."
>
> Mac 26X or M
>
> Ugly design
> Very light build quality
> Poor sailing performance
> Poor power boat performance
> Not cheap compared to better used boats
>
> Yeah...I guess if you're okay with that, then the Mac26 is GREAT! I also
have a
> 1983 OMC saildrive for sale...great if you understand it's limits.
>
> RB
>
> RB

[Bobsprit]

Is the Mac25 a better boat than a C&C 32 that never sails and has a host of
long term structural problems?>>>


Yes it would be. But I know of no C&C 32s or any C&Cs in my area with problems
you list.
Can't you manage to stay on topic without belittling yourself with tired
trolls? I don't like the Mac26 or any Macs for that matter. I have been aboard
the old macs and found them horribly cheap. The new X and M are simply awful.
It's my opinion, based on watching them sail and being aboard several. If they
sailed well (we all agree they DON'T) it would be another matter.
This is a sailing group, Doug. You directed a large portion of your time to a
powerboat, which in part explains your easy acceptance of a 26M. But I like
sailboats that sail well, that look nice, and that haven't been built to the
lowest price point available. I won't defend a Mac anymore than I'd defend a
boat with bad decks. I'll leave that to you and Scotty. It's sooooo easy to go
the "they're okay for some people" route. Show a little backbone and let's have
YOUR opinion. I seem to recall that you claimed you'd NEVER buy the Hunter 19
again after you discovered the weaknesses and quality. But they're "okay for
some people?" Or are they just crappy boats?

RB

[Bobsprit]

Name another boat in this size/price range that can be trailered, sailed,
motored as fast, has as much cabin space.>>


Yeah, and the Amphi car was also unique in it's abilities. It was also junk. I
suspect you ordered a lot of Smokeless Ashtrays, Inside the Egg-Egg Scramblers
and Mister Microphones in the 70's and 80's.

RB

[Bobsprit]

Repost where I said I '' find the 26M and X so appealing''.>>>

A lie, fo course. I never quoted you as saying this. I indicated that you like
the boat and continue to defend it, listing it's virtues. Clear to everyone.
You should get one!

RB

[Scott Vernon]

you must be really stupid to reply.


"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > BB
>
>
> LOL now That's funny
>
> RB>>
>
>
> Nice try. You must really be bored to keep this up.
>
> RB

[Scott Vernon]

Repost where I said I '' find the 26M and X so appealing''.

Your words Bob.

SV


"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> Please repost where I wrote that.>>
>
> You've been defending the Mac X and M. Fact.
> Sorry. Both sides of the rail doesn't suit you.
>
> RB

[DSK]

Bobsprit wrote:

> .... I seem to recall that you claimed you'd NEVER buy the Hunter 19
> again after you discovered the weaknesses and quality.

I never said that. Go ahead and google up what I actually did say, it should
provide some entertainment (which is what you're really after). Your memory is as
bad as everything else about you.

Bobsprit wrote:

> .... But I like
> sailboats that sail well, that look nice, and that haven't been built to the
> lowest price point available.

Yeah right. That's why 1- you never go sailing
2- you are proud of th many ugly excresences, such as the stern ladder, mounted on
the boat you claim to own
3- you are often bragging about how little you paid for the boat you claim to own.

DSK

[Scott Vernon]

Yeah, VoN. That's it. Looked at one (yellow hull) in Joisey. A little too
small for us. Don't they have more shear line than a 21?

http://www.macgregor-boats.com/broch/brochures/others/mac23.html

SV

"DSK" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > Isn't the M25 in the Sail hall of fame? Ever seen a Mac/Venture 23'
cutter
> > rigged? Cool looking boat.
>
> Yes, the "Venture of Newport" which was intended to cash in on the growing
> popularity of classic boats at that time.
>
> Not to disillusion you Scott but it is really just a Venture 21 with a
bowsprit
> & quarter rail screwed on. It is pretty cool looking though. There is one
that
> sails a lake nearby, the owner has changed it to a quasi-gaff rig, added a
row
> of bronze portholes, and some other old-timey nautical gear. Makes you
want to
> grab a rusty cutlass and shout "Argh, matey!"
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>

[Bobsprit]

WTF are you rambling about? Ashtrays? No one here smokes.>>

Bye, bye, Scotty.


RB

[DSK]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Yeah, VoN. That's it. Looked at one (yellow hull) in Joisey. A little too
> small for us. Don't they have more shear line than a 21?
>
> http://www.macgregor-boats.com/broch/brochures/others/mac23.html

Yes, they do... I have heard varying reports on this. One is that they bent the
hull mold with a chain hoist to make the VoN model. Another is that they padded
the mold around the transom with three chunks of plywood & some wax paper.
Probably only Roger Macgregor knows the truth. But anyway, the hull sections,
the rig, and most of the deck (they changed the cabin trunk a bit too) are the
same.

MacGregor is for sure not the only boat builder to do this. Lots of other
builders too. The Santana 23 has been reincarnated three or four times, always
with the same hull.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

[Bobsprit]

Your memory is as
bad as everything else about you.>>

With this type of childish discourse, there's little value in attempting to
engage you in a real discussion.
You DID say you wouldn't have done it again AFTER you found build problems.

Bye, bye, Doug.

RB

[Bobsprit]

Yeah right. That's why 1- you never go sailing>>

A simple troll. Bye, bye, Doug.
You've really fallen far.

RB

[John Cairns]

Let's help Bob on this one.
http://www.powersailing.com/newmast28.html
Can't say anything about the price, I gave one the once over in Chicago last
month and it did appear to be a lot sturdier than the Mac, it actually has
real winches. You'll note they rate this thing for a 75 hp outboard.
John Cairns
"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> Name another boat in this size/price range that can be trailered, sailed,
> motored as fast, has as much cabin space.
>
> Take a few days, then get back to me.
>

[Bobsprit]

H O L Y B A C K P E D D L E B A T M A N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>


Yup. caught you lying again.

RB

[Scott Vernon]

WTF are you rambling about? Ashtrays? No one here smokes. Stick to the
subject. Apparently you can't name another boat like I asked you to.

SV



"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> Name another boat in this size/price range that can be trailered, sailed,
> motored as fast, has as much cabin space.>>
>
>
> Yeah, and the Amphi car was also unique in it's abilities. It was also
junk. I
> suspect you ordered a lot of Smokeless Ashtrays, Inside the Egg-Egg
Scramblers
> and Mister Microphones in the 70's and 80's.
>
> RB

[Bobsprit]

Can't say anything about the price, I gave one the once over in Chicago last
month and it did appear to be a lot sturdier than the Mac, it actually has
real winches. You'll note they rate this thing for a 75 hp outboard.>>>


Well, so much for Scotty's love affair with the Mac26X and M.
I knew it couldn't last.

RB

[Scott Vernon]

H O L Y B A C K P E D D L E B A T M A N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> Repost where I said I '' find the 26M and X so appealing''.>>>
>
> A lie, fo course. I never quoted you as saying this. I indicated that you
like
> the boat and continue to defend it, listing it's virtues. Clear to
everyone.
> You should get one!
>
> RB

[Bobsprit]

> We're all awaiting your thoughtful answers.
>

Not really.>>


Sadly, you're correct. It'll just be another troll.

RB

[Scott Vernon]

I was wondering if they made new molds for the New/improved M or simply
scotch taped some cardboard here and there.

SV

"DSK" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > Yeah, VoN. That's it. Looked at one (yellow hull) in Joisey. A little
too
> > small for us. Don't they have more shear line than a 21?
> >
> > http://www.macgregor-boats.com/broch/brochures/others/mac23.html
>
> Yes, they do... I have heard varying reports on this. One is that they
bent the
> hull mold with a chain hoist to make the VoN model. Another is that they
padded
> the mold around the transom with three chunks of plywood & some wax paper.
> Probably only Roger Macgregor knows the truth. But anyway, the hull
sections,
> the rig, and most of the deck (they changed the cabin trunk a bit too) are
the
> same.
>
> MacGregor is for sure not the only boat builder to do this. Lots of other
> builders too. The Santana 23 has been reincarnated three or four times,
always
> with the same hull.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>

[Scott Vernon]

Back to your old lieing ways again?

"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dugout canoes and make-shift rafts have made those trips. Please explain
to
> everyone why you find the 26M and X so appealing. Outside of Jim you're
the
> only one who thinks this way.




"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> Repost where I said I '' find the 26M and X so appealing''.>>>
>
> A lie, fo course. I never quoted you as saying this. I indicated that you
like
> the boat and continue to defend it, listing it's virtues. Clear to
everyone.
> You should get one!
>
> RB

[Scott Vernon]

I wondered why you posted a link to the Mac 26x, dang they look similar.

Scotty


"John Cairns" > wrote in message
...
> Let's help Bob on this one.
> http://www.powersailing.com/newmast28.html
> Can't say anything about the price, I gave one the once over in Chicago
last
> month and it did appear to be a lot sturdier than the Mac, it actually has
> real winches. You'll note they rate this thing for a 75 hp outboard.
> John Cairns
> "Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Name another boat in this size/price range that can be trailered,
sailed,
> > motored as fast, has as much cabin space.
> >
> > Take a few days, then get back to me.
> >
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

Losing the argument, Bob wrote....


> Bye, bye, Scotty.
>
>
> RB

[Scott Vernon]

Now it's a love affair? Show us some proof PLEASE.


"Bobsprit" > wrote
>
>
> Well, so much for Scotty's love affair with the Mac26X and M.
> I knew it couldn't last.
>
> RB

[Scott Vernon]

You're reverting back to the old Bobspit. Lies. All lies.


"Bobsprit" > wrote
>
>
> Yup. lying again.
>
> RB

[DSK]

Bobsprit wrote:

>
> You DID say you wouldn't have done it again AFTER you found build problems.

No, Bubbles, I never said any such thing.

Here is a reprise of what I *did* say: that Hunter has poor QA, and that I'd
advise other boat shoppers to look very hard in certain areas before buying
one.

If shopping for a trailerable cruiser within a certain weight range, I would
definitely buy a Hunter 19 again. It is a brilliant design, nothing else comes
remotely close. In nine years of cruising with a club of trailersailers, we
never saw any boat that was as quick & easy to rig, launch, & retrieve; never
saw anything remotely as comfortable, very few with anything approaching it's
sailing performance, and none with it's practical features like the transom
gate. Our boat was usually where the group gathered and usually the one
everybody else followed.

Of course, since you don't actually cruise, you have no apprecation for
practical values.

When are you going to answer Scotty's question about what trailerable boats of
comparable size & price to the old Mac26 sail better & have more room?

Fresh Breezes (to them wot can use 'em)- Doug King

[DSK]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> You're reverting back to the old Bobspit. Lies. All lies.

That's how he WINS!

DSK

[John Cairns]

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> I wondered why you posted a link to the Mac 26x, dang they look similar.
>
> Scotty
>
>
> "John Cairns" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Let's help Bob on this one.
> > http://www.powersailing.com/newmast28.html
> > Can't say anything about the price, I gave one the once over in Chicago
> last
> > month and it did appear to be a lot sturdier than the Mac, it actually
has
> > real winches. You'll note they rate this thing for a 75 hp outboard.
> > John Cairns
> > "Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Name another boat in this size/price range that can be trailered,
> sailed,
> > > motored as fast, has as much cabin space.
> > >
> > > Take a few days, then get back to me.

Considering you want the boat to do the same thing, they would have to look
similar, but the Mast does look more like a "real" sailboat than any of the
Mac powersailors. I think they're fairly expensive also.
John Cairns

[Scott Vernon]

He must be off sulking.


"DSK" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > You're reverting back to the old Bobspit. Lies. All lies.
>
> That's how he WINS!
>
> DSK
>

[DSK]

John Cairns wrote:

>
> Considering you want the boat to do the same thing, they would have to look
> similar, but the Mast does look more like a "real" sailboat than any of the
> Mac powersailors. I think they're fairly expensive also.

I was thinking it looked a bit like the Beneteau power-sailer that was supposed
to come out a few years ago. It also has the biggest genoa I've seen in a
while!

DSK

[Bobsprit]

When are you going to answer Scotty's question about what trailerable boats of
comparable size & price to the old Mac26 sail better & have more room?>>

Didn't you catch John's post? There IS another boat that does all the Mac26X
and M and it's a better boat to boot.

RB

[Scott Vernon]

And it costs how much?


"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> When are you going to answer Scotty's question about what trailerable
boats of
> comparable size & price to the old Mac26 sail better & have more room?>>
>
> Didn't you catch John's post? There IS another boat that does all the
Mac26X
> and M and it's a better boat to boot.
>
> RB

[Scott Vernon]

> wrote
> >
>
> First "backpeddle" and now "lieing" - And you think I need a spell
> checker?


Yes, you do.

[John Cairns]

Scotty said size/price range. Though similar in size, the basic boat package
for the Mast(sailaway, trailer, no motor) is almost $46k, which is nowhere
near the price of the 26X, which was priced well under $20k for the
boat/trailer minus motor. IIRC, the 26M was priced well under $20k also.
John Cairns

"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> When are you going to answer Scotty's question about what trailerable
boats of
> comparable size & price to the old Mac26 sail better & have more room?>>
>
> Didn't you catch John's post? There IS another boat that does all the
Mac26X
> and M and it's a better boat to boot.
>
> RB

[Bobsprit]

> First "backpeddle" and now "lieing" - And you think I need a spell
> checker?


Yes, you do.>>>


Actually, according to Scotty you "nead a spel cheker."

RB

[Jonathan Ganz]

I wish I could afford an Alerion 26.

Go to my website, click on the ads, maybe I'll be able to someday.

"Jeff Morris" > wrote in message
...
> There's a long list of beautiful 26 footers.
>
> Here's my favorite:
> http://www.eastlandyachts.com/nonsuch.html#Anchor-26
>
> But also:
> http://www.proper-yachts.com/alerion26.htm
>
> You can also get a lot of boat in smaller packages, like:
> http://www.marshallcat.com/default.htm
>
> or allow a few extra feet of pinched stern:
> http://www.marinebrokerage.com/cgi-bin/data.cgi/29vixen.compassrose
>
> If you think the Mac 26M is more beautiful than these, you run to the
dealer and
> buy one now Its a match made in heaven!
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I don't think you can call any 26-foot boat beautiful,
>
>
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Scott, don't worry about it... bob could float from Hawaii no problem.

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> Please repost where I wrote that.
>
>
> "Bobsprit" > wrote >
> >
> > Please explain to
> > everyone why you find the 26M and X so appealing.
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Way to go Scott. You did this faster than anyone could imagine.

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> You're reverting back to the old Bobspit. Lies. All lies.
>
>
> "Bobsprit" > wrote
> >
> >
> > Yup. lying again.
> >
> > RB
>

[Bobsprit]

I wish I could afford an Alerion 26.>>>


One of the best looking boats around. I wonder what happened to the 36 or 37
foot yawl they were building? It was also beautiful.

RB

[Jonathan Ganz]

They were probably better than the current brew, but I don't have
any direct experience with any of them.

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> Careful Jon, the older Macs (pre X ) were pretty good little boats.
>
> SV
>
> "Jonathan Ganz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well, the Mac line of boats are bottom of the barrel. Not sure what
> > else "we" can tell you. If you like/want the compromise, go for it.
> > At this point, I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
> >
> > "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Well, this discussion string is now up to around 250 responses, not
> > > including my own. It's interesting that no one has commented on my
> > > initial "both and" rather than "either or" plan. As you may recall, I
> > > stated that:
> > >
> > > > A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > > >> still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier
boats
> > > >> kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > > >> conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
> > Mac.
> > > >> (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for
hours
> on
> > > >> a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > > >> fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many
used
> > 30
> > > >> - 32-foot boats.
> > >
> > > In other words, my plan was to consider getting a 26M Mac for: (1)
it's
> > > obvious advantages in shallow bay waters and close-in coastal cruising
> > > (such as, for fishing, and for getting to fishing or sailing areas
> > > quickly and for returning quickly, for anchoring in areas where small
> > > childred (grandkids) could swim, for beaching on local islands, etc.),
> > > AND ALSO (2) to continue to charter larger boats for more extended
> > > cruising without the younger (3 to 5 year old) set.
> > >
> > > In any event, it's obvious that my note and my refusal to "cave" are
> > > either generating increasing frustration or providing some perverse
form
> > > of pleasure to participants in this discussion string.
> > > (No one, after all, is required to participate.)
> > >
> > > Again, I'm not asking for agreement or "approval" or even
acquiescence.
> > > I would like to seem some semblance of logic, rationality and
> > > intellectual honesty, however. - Like, for starters, talking about the
> > > same boat I'm talking about.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim Cate wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the
Galveston-Houston
> > > > area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or
sailed
> > > > on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> > > >
> > > > For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have
> some
> > > > advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> > > > regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> > > > sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and
> doing
> > > > some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> > > > will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can
therefore
> > > > get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> > > > than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home
yet"
> > > > issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> > > > hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the
boat's
> > > > ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> > > > islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant,
> although
> > > > a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots
> under
> > > > motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah
marina
> to
> > > > the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the
depth
> > > > finder.)
> > > >
> > > > OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> > > > anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice.
Also,
> > > > the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. -
It
> > > > now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel
> (which
> > > > I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> > > > extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> > > > reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other
structural
> > > > and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the
> years.
> > > > As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> > > > comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is
clearly
> > > > much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the
> video.)
> > > > With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat;
it
> > > > can reportedly plane under sail.
> > > >
> > > > A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > > > still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier
boats
> > > > kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > > > conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
> Mac.
> > > > (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours
> on
> > > > a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > > > fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many
used
> 30
> > > > - 32-foot boats.
> > > >
> > > > Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring
> characteristics
> > > > of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

The 38 is on their website. On second thought, I'd rather have that one.

"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> I wish I could afford an Alerion 26.>>>
>
>
> One of the best looking boats around. I wonder what happened to the 36 or
37
> foot yawl they were building? It was also beautiful.
>
> RB

[DSK]

Jim Cate wrote:
> The website is wrong, and you ought to admit it. If, again, you have any
> interest in posting truthful, rational comments.

You have a number of misquotes in your post.

FWIW my opinion is that the website is no more truthful than any other
advertising, and possibly is a bit less.

DSK

[DSK]

Jim Cate wrote:
> How many of your friends had sailed the 26M?

The two that currently own them.

FWIW we have seen both of them out sailing, all but once in mild
conditions. If you want to discuss the boat with one of them I'll see if
I can get an email address from one or the other this weekend.

DSK

[DSK]

wrote:
>
> First "backpeddle" and now "lieing" - And you think I need a spell
> checker?

Whoa hoss, he said that BOBSPRIT was lying, not you BittyBill. Getting
your sock puppets on the wrong hand again?

DSK

[Bobsprit]

The 38 is on their website. On second thought, I'd rather have that one.>>

There was one at the AC boat show a few years back.
Simply stunning and getting very little attention against the Catalina and
Hunters. The one I was on had a tiller.

RB

[DSK]

Jeff Morris wrote:

> There's a long list of beautiful 26 footers.

Agreed. Here are some of my faves

Trying to find a good picture of the S-boat, which I'd pick over the
Alerion by a slight margin...
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/membershipsframe.htm
http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/sitemapframe.htm

wait, here's a pretty good one... check out the tiny spinnaker and the
old fashioned boom vang
www.herreshoff.org/Tops/sboat.html

Then there's this one, which is a masterpiece, plus it's fast plus it's
trailerable... but it sure ain't cheap
http://www.hankhinckley.com/26top.html

Nice one... TransAtlantic capable, too
http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/ialb/fb4a044/folke/gallery.htm

Now for something completely different
http://www.geocities.com/Lindenberg26/l26photos.html

I think these boats are pretty, too... maybe not as pretty as a Shields
or an Atlantic or a Dragon, and not as fast as an Etchells, but ther are
proof that it is possible to have a pretty 26' boat
http://www.soling.com/Pictures.asp

Here's a view you rarely see
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~truesdel/images/soling.in.50.knots.gif

DSK

[Jonathan Ganz]

They must be quite expensive. I believe the 26s are $80K new.

"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> The 38 is on their website. On second thought, I'd rather have that one.>>
>
> There was one at the AC boat show a few years back.
> Simply stunning and getting very little attention against the Catalina and
> Hunters. The one I was on had a tiller.
>
> RB

[Jeff Morris]

Great Shots! I love the "S" boats. I would have included the Folkboat, but I
thought someone else had already mentioned it. And the Soling was also on my
short list, but without even a cuddy its strictly a daysailor. Beautiful shot
of the Soling in 50 knots. I actually had the experience of sailing one on the
Charles River in 45+ knots (max gust I think was 54). Definitely a handful!





"DSK" > wrote in message
.. .
>
>
> Jeff Morris wrote:
>
> > There's a long list of beautiful 26 footers.
>
> Agreed. Here are some of my faves
>
> Trying to find a good picture of the S-boat, which I'd pick over the
> Alerion by a slight margin...
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
> http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/membershipsframe.htm
> http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/sitemapframe.htm
>
> wait, here's a pretty good one... check out the tiny spinnaker and the
> old fashioned boom vang
> www.herreshoff.org/Tops/sboat.html
>
> Then there's this one, which is a masterpiece, plus it's fast plus it's
> trailerable... but it sure ain't cheap
> http://www.hankhinckley.com/26top.html
>
> Nice one... TransAtlantic capable, too
> http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/ialb/fb4a044/folke/gallery.htm
>
> Now for something completely different
> http://www.geocities.com/Lindenberg26/l26photos.html
>
> I think these boats are pretty, too... maybe not as pretty as a Shields
> or an Atlantic or a Dragon, and not as fast as an Etchells, but ther are
> proof that it is possible to have a pretty 26' boat
> http://www.soling.com/Pictures.asp
>
> Here's a view you rarely see
> http://www.ics.uci.edu/~truesdel/images/soling.in.50.knots.gif
>
> DSK
>

[Bobsprit]

They must be quite expensive. I believe the 26s are $80K new.>>

I (Think) remember it was around 180 or 190K. It was so damned beautiful, 100%
worth it.

RB

[Jonathan Ganz]

Maybe instead of my next rental house.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com
"Bobsprit" > wrote in message
...
> They must be quite expensive. I believe the 26s are $80K new.>>
>
> I (Think) remember it was around 180 or 190K. It was so damned beautiful,
100%
> worth it.
>
> RB

[Scott Vernon]

$46k for that? I could by a fleet of Seidelmann 30s and start a charter co.
for that amount.

Scotty


"John Cairns" > wrote in message
...
> Scotty said size/price range. Though similar in size, the basic boat
package
> for the Mast(sailaway, trailer, no motor) is almost $46k, which is nowhere
> near the price of the 26X, which was priced well under $20k for the
> boat/trailer minus motor. IIRC, the 26M was priced well under $20k also.
> John Cairns
>
> "Bobsprit" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When are you going to answer Scotty's question about what trailerable
> boats of
> > comparable size & price to the old Mac26 sail better & have more room?>>
> >
> > Didn't you catch John's post? There IS another boat that does all the
> Mac26X
> > and M and it's a better boat to boot.
> >
> > RB
>
>

[DSK]

Jeff Morris wrote:
> Great Shots! I love the "S" boats. I would have included the Folkboat, but I
> thought someone else had already mentioned it. And the Soling was also on my
> short list, but without even a cuddy its strictly a daysailor. Beautiful shot
> of the Soling in 50 knots. I actually had the experience of sailing one on the
> Charles River in 45+ knots (max gust I think was 54). Definitely a handful!

One of my pet theories is that is a threshold of wind power where any
given boat becomes unmanageable. This occurs when the max righting
moment is just barely enough to hold the rig up against it's own
windage, and there cannot be any useful power developed. In some small
racing classes, this occurs anywhere between 25 and 45+ knots, and boats
vary widely in their behavior at this threshold. Some get balky (the
Lightning at about 35), and some just suddenly go berserk (the 470 at
about 40). Others cross the threshold more smoothly, and simply let you
know that you are less & less in charge.

The Soling seemed to me to be a thoroughbred in this regard. Never
sailed one at 40+ but in the 30s they are still workable, but you have
to think ahead and they let you know that you're flirting with something
BIG. At an Olympic class regatta many moons ago, we took the 470 out on
a day of 45 - 50 knot winds, and the 470 would only go downwind (mostly
flipped). One of the few times I've had to be rescued. A couple of the
Soling guys went out and blasted back and forth, most of them tore sails
and one nearly sunk. There are reports of Solings going down, nowadays I
think they have airbag flotation.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

[Jim Cate]

John Cairns wrote:
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Jim Cate wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>John Cairns wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The new boat is probably only slightly less of a pig under sail than
>>>>the old
>>>>boat, if you want to verify this, I'm sure you'll find at least one Mac
>>>>broker that has an M in stock and will be happy to take you out for a
>>>>test
>>>>sail. I have one of the NE phrf lists, it rates this boat(26X) at 216
>>>>which
>>>>is probably charitable. You do the math. If it is indeed 20 to 30%
>
> faster
>
>>>>than the old model, what would it's rating be?
>>>>John Cairns
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>John,
>>>
>>>I suspect that you don't have much interest in the facts, but the 26X IS
>>>the "old" model. The "new" model is the 26M. In other words, your stats
>>>are either six years out of date or bass-ass-backwards.
>>>
>>>Jim
>>
>>No responses to this note?
>>
>>Jim
>
>
> Yes, read the post carefully. I think everyone here knows that the 26M is
> the "new" model. I bracket the new, because for all intents and purposes,
> this is the same boat as the 26X, regardless of all the clever advertising
> blurbs. These are the specs for the 26X, at least 6 years old.
> http://old.cruisingworld.com/ssbk/macgr26x.htm

Your note, to which I referred, stated that:

The new boat is probably only slightly less of a pig under sail than the
old boat, if you want to verify this, I'm sure you'll find at least one
Mac broker that has an M in stock and will be happy to take you out for
a test sail. I have one of the NE phrf lists, it rates THIS boat(26X) at
216 which is probably charitable. You do the math. If it is indeed 20 to
30% faster than the old model, what would it's rating be?
John Cairns

From your own note, your new NE phrf list rates THIS BOAT (the 26x) at
216.......... However, the NEW boat is the 26m, not the 26X. Also, the
new boat isn't just the old boat "for all intents and purposes" with
some "subtle changes." In fact, the hull is completely new, an
incorporates a bow section having a deep V design of 15 degrees, as
compared with the flatter, 8-degree hull of the 26X model. Secondly,
the boat incorporates a vertically displaceable dagger board instead of
the old pivotable centerboard. Accordingly, the 5-foot, 16" high
centerboard trunk that extended aft of the pivot point of the
centerboard in the X model is no longer necessary, and is therefore
eliminated, such that the contour of the hull aft of the dagger board
doesn't include the 16" recess or trunk. Other changes include an
additional layer of fiberglass and roving in the lower hull, softer
corners at the transom, etc. The mast is 2' higher than on the X model,
and the ballast is no longer an exclusively water ballast, but instead,
includes 300 lb.. of permanent ballast.

ONCE AGAIN, I'm not saying that these changes have solved all potential
deficiencies in the old models, or that the new boat sails or powers
superbly. But there can be no question that the M model incorporates
major, substantive changes, has an entirely different hull, and is not
the same boat as the previous models. As previously noted, I'm not
asking for acquiescence or agreement, I'm asking for some basic
INTELLECTUAL HONESTY in the discussion. - That would include your
admitting that you were wrong in stating that there are only "cosmetic"
differences between the new M boat and the older models. - A 15-degree
Hull IS NOT the same thing as a substantially flat, 8-degree hull.

As for your suggestion that I find a dealer with the new model in stock
who would be "happy" to take me out for a test sail, I haven't found
one. - Most of them tell me that the new model is in such demand and
scarce supply that they can't even keep one in stock for display. Of
course, I doubt that the owner of the 34-foot Cal I'm also looking at
would let me take that boat for a test sail either. - That's why I
posted my questions on this ng in the first place.

Jim




>
> Now compare and contrast these numbers to the "new" 26M
> http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sailing-specifications.html
>
> Hmm. Interesting. Roger must be the greatest NA in history if he got boat A
> to go faster than boat B simply by making a few subtle design changes to the
> underbody. But I digress. You think that it(26M) is a boat worthy of your
> serious consideration, why don't you take one out for a test sail and give
> us all of the details. I noticed that you never answered MY question, and it
> wasn't rhetorical, it was a serious suggestion. And the other question was
> serious also. If the (OLD) 26X is rated at 216 and the (NEW) 26M is 20-30%
> faster (make it easier, say it's 20% faster) what would it's rating be?
> Think carefully before you answer. And no, we won't discuss how fast or
> stable or maneuverable it is under power, because, after all, this is a
> SAILING newsgroup, if we really concerned about how our boats handled under
> power we would own POWERBOATS.
>
> John Cairns
>
>

[Jim Cate]

This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.

As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.

In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.

Jim


Jim Cate wrote:

>
> I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
> area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
> on the boat. Or, anyone else.
>
> For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
> advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
> some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
> get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
> ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
> a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
> motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
> the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> finder.)
>
> OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
> the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
> now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
> I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
> As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
> much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
> With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> can reportedly plane under sail.
>
> A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
> (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
> a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
> - 32-foot boats.
>
> Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
> of the new 26M would be appreciated.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>

[katysails]

Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Jonathan Ganz]

It sounds to me like you're not really listening. Macs have a terrible
reputation. Having seen several of them around, seen them "sail" or
"motor," and talked to a few owners, I wouldn't consider getting any
of them. There are better boats for the same money. Several people
have said basically the same thing over and over.

Are you really that thick?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
> This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
>
> As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
> question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
> statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
> by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
> determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
> had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
> Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
> obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
> 26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
> models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
> corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
> talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.
>
> In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
> pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
> that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
> the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
> boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
> intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
>
> Jim
>
>
> Jim Cate wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
> > area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
> > on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> >
> > For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
> > advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> > regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> > sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
> > some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> > will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
> > get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> > than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> > issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> > hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
> > ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> > islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
> > a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
> > motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
> > the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> > finder.)
> >
> > OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> > anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
> > the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
> > now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
> > I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> > extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> > reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> > and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
> > As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> > comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
> > much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
> > With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> > can reportedly plane under sail.
> >
> > A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> > kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
> > (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
> > a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
> > - 32-foot boats.
> >
> > Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
> > of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[JAXAshby]

jim, buy the Mac and motor it to your heart's content. HOWEVER, you are
forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part and
would doom you to Hell for eternity.



>This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
>
>As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
>question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
>statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
>by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
>determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
>had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
>Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
>obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
>26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
>models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
>corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
>talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.
>
>In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
>pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
>that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
>the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
>boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
>intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
>
>Jim
>
>
>Jim Cate wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
>> area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
>> on the boat. Or, anyone else.
>>
>> For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
>> advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
>> regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
>> sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
>> some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
>> will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
>> get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
>> than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
>> issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
>> hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
>> ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
>> islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
>> a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
>> motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
>> the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
>> finder.)
>>
>> OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
>> anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
>> the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
>> now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
>> I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
>> extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
>> reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
>> and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
>> As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
>> comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
>> much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
>> With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
>> can reportedly plane under sail.
>>
>> A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
>> still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
>> kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
>> conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
>> (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
>> a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
>> fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
>> - 32-foot boats.
>>
>> Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
>> of the new 26M would be appreciated.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

heey, katies. way to go. dead bang on center.

>Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
>boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
>boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
>analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
>product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
>take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
>then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
>for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
>people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
>repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
>planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
>wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
>reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
>here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
>comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
>wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
>sail.
>
>--
>katysails
>s/v Chanteuse
> Kirie Elite 32
>http://katysails.tripod.com
>
> "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
>and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.


"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
> This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
>
> As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
> question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
> statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
> by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
> determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
> had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
> Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
> obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
> 26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
> models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
> corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
> talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.
>
> In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
> pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
> that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
> the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
> boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
> intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
>
> Jim
>
>
> Jim Cate wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
> > area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
> > on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> >
> > For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
> > advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> > regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> > sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
> > some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> > will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
> > get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> > than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> > issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> > hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
> > ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> > islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
> > a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
> > motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
> > the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> > finder.)
> >
> > OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> > anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
> > the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
> > now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
> > I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> > extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> > reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> > and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
> > As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> > comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
> > much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
> > With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> > can reportedly plane under sail.
> >
> > A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> > kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
> > (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
> > a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
> > - 32-foot boats.
> >
> > Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
> > of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Jim Cate]

Scott, you certainly don't have to read or respond to my notes.
It's rather easy to click the down arrow and move on to another topic.

Jim

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.
>
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
>>
>>As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
>>question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
>>statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
>>by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
>>determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
>>had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
>>Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
>>obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
>>26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
>>models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
>>corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
>>talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.
>>
>>In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
>>pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
>>that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
>>the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
>>boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
>>intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>
>>Jim Cate wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
>>>area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
>>>on the boat. Or, anyone else.
>>>
>>>For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
>>>advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
>>>regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
>>>sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
>>>some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
>>>will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
>>>get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
>>>than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
>>>issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
>>>hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
>>>ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
>>>islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
>>>a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
>>>motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
>>>the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
>>>finder.)
>>>
>>>OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
>>>anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
>>>the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
>>>now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
>>>I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
>>>extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
>>>reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
>>>and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
>>>As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
>>>comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
>>>much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
>>> With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
>>>can reportedly plane under sail.
>>>
>>>A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
>>>still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
>>>kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
>>>conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
>>>(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
>>>a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
>>>fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
>>>- 32-foot boats.
>>>
>>>Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
>>>of the new 26M would be appreciated.
>>>
>>>Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:
> Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
> boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
> boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
> analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
> product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
> take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
> then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
> for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
> people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
> repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
> planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
> wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
> reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
> here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
> comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
> wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
> sail.
>
Katy, first regarding your comment that I need to go learn to sail, as
previously mentioned, I have sailed a 37-ft O'Day, 40-ft Valiant (weeks
charter), Cal 34, Cat 30 Endeavor 32, etc., etc. I'm seeking to extend
my sailing experience.

Regarding the reputation of the MacGregors, I realize that it isn't the
same type of boat as fixed keel boats such as the Valiant and the O'Day.
However, they entail certain obvious advantages for sailing in bay
areas and with respect to their ability to get to a desired sailing area
quickly, and to return quickly, and to getting through marginal channels
and limited deep water sailing areas such as we have in he Galveston bay
area. My note concerned the new model, in which the hull is
significantly different from previous models, as previously described. I
don't see news reports of hundreds of MacGregor sailors killed or
injured, actually. If someone who has actually sailed the 26M under
differing weather conditions tells me that it has minimal sailing
capability, or that it is likely to fall apart in a force three wind, or
that MacGregor owners are being routinely lost at sea because of defects
in the boat, then that information would be meaningful and relevant. But
so far I haven't seen such a report, and, from speaking with several who
have sailed it, the boat seems to be faster and more responsive and more
stable in chop under power than the previous models.

Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
seems to have several advantages. - If the lower hull is compromised,
the inner hull remains. If both hulls are compromised, or if the side
hull is penetrated as in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the
Mac afloat. By contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep
boats) is compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial
water enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant
will quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out to
the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending
weather, is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant,
there were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly
marked and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we
had to turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
the Mac for such shallow water activities.

I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
therefore be faster under sail in some conditions). However, if I can't
get out to the blue water on weekends because of the requisite hours of
motoring time it takes to get from our area to the blue water, then the
fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant wouldn't be of much benefit
to me. (With the exception of being able to talk about it on the
newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could only get out once or
twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a larger boat for
extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> It sounds to me like you're not really listening.


It sounds to me like you're not really listening.

Jim




Macs have a terrible
> reputation. Having seen several of them around, seen them "sail" or
> "motor," and talked to a few owners, I wouldn't consider getting any
> of them. There are better boats for the same money. Several people
> have said basically the same thing over and over.
>
> Are you really that thick?
>

[Jim Cate]

JAXAshby wrote:

> jim, buy the Mac and motor it to your heart's content. HOWEVER, you are
> forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part and
> would doom you to Hell for eternity.
>
>
>


Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
or VHF?

Jim

[Scott Vernon]

As the NG moderator, I do.

SV

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
> Scott, you certainly don't have to read or respond to my notes.
> It's rather easy to click the down arrow and move on to another topic.
>
> Jim
>
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.
> >
> >
> > "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
> >>
> >>As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
> >>question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
> >>statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
> >>by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
> >>determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
> >>had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
> >>Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
> >>obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
> >>26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
> >>models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
> >>corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
> >>talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M
entailed.
> >>
> >>In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
> >>pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
> >>that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
> >>the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
> >>boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
> >>intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
> >>
> >>Jim
> >>
> >>
> >>Jim Cate wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
> >>>area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
> >>>on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> >>>
> >>>For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
> >>>advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> >>>regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> >>>sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and
doing
> >>>some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> >>>will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
> >>>get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> >>>than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> >>>issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> >>>hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
> >>>ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> >>>islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
> >>>a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots
under
> >>>motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina
to
> >>>the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> >>>finder.)
> >>>
> >>>OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> >>>anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
> >>>the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
> >>>now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel
(which
> >>>I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> >>>extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> >>>reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> >>>and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the
years.
> >>>As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> >>>comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
> >>>much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
> >>> With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> >>>can reportedly plane under sail.
> >>>
> >>>A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> >>>still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> >>>kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> >>>conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
Mac.
> >>>(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
> >>>a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> >>>fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used
30
> >>>- 32-foot boats.
> >>>
> >>>Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
> >>>of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> >>>
> >>>Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>

[JAXAshby]

> However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing

not that anyone but you can see.

[JAXAshby]

>you are
>> forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part and
>> would doom you to Hell for eternity.
>>
>
>Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
>or VHF?
>

nope.


>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Marc]

C'mon Jax, give the pedant a break. I saw a mac motoring out the race
equipped with radar.Gave me pause. Kind of like a mouse crawling up an
elephants leg with rape on its mind.

On 01 Apr 2004 15:52:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

>>you are
>>> forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part and
>>> would doom you to Hell for eternity.
>>>
>>
>>Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
>>or VHF?
>>
>
>nope.
>
>
>>Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Exactly.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JAXAshby" > wrote in message
...
> > However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing
>
> not that anyone but you can see.

[Jonathan Ganz]

Ok. Well, I think we're pretty much finished with you. Just about
everyone, including Jax, has tried to be helpful. You're not having
any. And, I guess we'll just have to live with the fact that either you're
not too bright or an asshole who is not too bright.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > It sounds to me like you're not really listening.
>
>
> It sounds to me like you're not really listening.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Macs have a terrible
> > reputation. Having seen several of them around, seen them "sail" or
> > "motor," and talked to a few owners, I wouldn't consider getting any
> > of them. There are better boats for the same money. Several people
> > have said basically the same thing over and over.
> >
> > Are you really that thick?
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

That's right. The rest of us can just plonk him.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> As the NG moderator, I do.
>
> SV
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Scott, you certainly don't have to read or respond to my notes.
> > It's rather easy to click the down arrow and move on to another topic.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Scott Vernon wrote:
> >
> > > Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >>This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
> > >>
> > >>As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
> > >>question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
> > >>statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were
posted
> > >>by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
> > >>determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone
who
> > >>had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
> > >>Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
> > >>obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
> > >>26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
> > >>models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
> > >>corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they
were
> > >>talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M
> entailed.
> > >>
> > >>In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
> > >>pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
> > >>that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
> > >>the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a
great
> > >>boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
> > >>intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
> > >>
> > >>Jim
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Jim Cate wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the
Galveston-Houston
> > >>>area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or
sailed
> > >>>on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> > >>>
> > >>>For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have
some
> > >>>advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> > >>>regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> > >>>sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and
> doing
> > >>>some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> > >>>will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can
therefore
> > >>>get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> > >>>than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> > >>>issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> > >>>hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the
boat's
> > >>>ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> > >>>islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant,
although
> > >>>a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots
> under
> > >>>motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina
> to
> > >>>the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> > >>>finder.)
> > >>>
> > >>>OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> > >>>anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice.
Also,
> > >>>the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. -
It
> > >>>now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel
> (which
> > >>>I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> > >>>extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> > >>>reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> > >>>and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the
> years.
> > >>>As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> > >>>comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is
clearly
> > >>>much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the
video.)
> > >>> With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat;
it
> > >>>can reportedly plane under sail.
> > >>>
> > >>>A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > >>>still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> > >>>kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > >>>conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
> Mac.
> > >>>(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours
on
> > >>>a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > >>>fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used
> 30
> > >>>- 32-foot boats.
> > >>>
> > >>>Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring
characteristics
> > >>>of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> > >>>
> > >>>Jim
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> >
>

[JAXAshby]

okay, a radar as long as it is at least 4kw and has a CRT screen rather than an
LCD.

>C'mon Jax, give the pedant a break. I saw a mac motoring out the race
>equipped with radar.Gave me pause. Kind of like a mouse crawling up an
>elephants leg with rape on its mind.
>
>On 01 Apr 2004 15:52:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:
>
>>>you are
>>>> forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part
>and
>>>> would doom you to Hell for eternity.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
>>>or VHF?
>>>
>>
>>nope.
>>
>>
>>>Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Jeff Morris]

don't forget the sidescan sonar.


"JAXAshby" > wrote in message
...
> okay, a radar as long as it is at least 4kw and has a CRT screen rather than
an
> LCD.
>
> >C'mon Jax, give the pedant a break. I saw a mac motoring out the race
> >equipped with radar.Gave me pause. Kind of like a mouse crawling up an
> >elephants leg with rape on its mind.
> >
> >On 01 Apr 2004 15:52:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:
> >
> >>>you are
> >>>> forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part
> >and
> >>>> would doom you to Hell for eternity.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
> >>>or VHF?
> >>>
> >>
> >>nope.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Donal]

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> katysails wrote:
> > Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
> > boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
> > boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years.
Your
> > analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if
a
> > product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it
will
> > take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company
might
> > then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the
market
> > for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
> > people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their
rate of
> > repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you
are
> > planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
> > wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a
bad
> > reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
> > here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
> > comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now
quit
> > wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
> > sail.
> >
> Katy, first regarding your comment that I need to go learn to sail, as
> previously mentioned, I have sailed a 37-ft O'Day, 40-ft Valiant (weeks
> charter), Cal 34, Cat 30 Endeavor 32, etc., etc. I'm seeking to extend
> my sailing experience.

First, I'd like to point out that most of the replies have been genuine
attempts to be helpful.

Second, it doesn't really matter what boat you buy - at least for a few
years. You will probably get enjoyment from simply being "out there".




>
> Regarding the reputation of the MacGregors, I realize that it isn't the
> same type of boat as fixed keel boats such as the Valiant and the O'Day.
> However, they entail certain obvious advantages for sailing in bay
> areas and with respect to their ability to get to a desired sailing area
> quickly, and to return quickly, and to getting through marginal channels

This is the heart of the matter.

You seem to want a sailing vessel. However, you also want to keep your
boat about 25 miles from your sailing area. If you really must keep your
boat so far from a sailing ground, then I think that you should tell us why.
Perhaps that will produce different responses from people.




Regards


Donal
--

[katysails]

Jim stated:
Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

So the MacGregor obviously fits OYUR criteria...go buy one, but don't come
whining back here...but then, maybe you're like Horvath with his blind love
of Hunter's....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Scott Vernon]

autosteering? Do they make one for the 'x' model. That steering wheel is
like, 14'' dia..

SV


"JAXAshby" > wrote in message
...
> okay, a radar as long as it is at least 4kw and has a CRT screen rather
than an
> LCD.
>
> >C'mon Jax, give the pedant a break. I saw a mac motoring out the race
> >equipped with radar.Gave me pause. Kind of like a mouse crawling up an
> >elephants leg with rape on its mind.
> >
> >On 01 Apr 2004 15:52:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:
> >
> >>>you are
> >>>> forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your
part
> >and
> >>>> would doom you to Hell for eternity.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
> >>>or VHF?
> >>>
> >>
> >>nope.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

Unless it's a mere 'stepping stone'.

SV

"Donal" > wrote
> Second, it doesn't really matter what boat you buy - at least for a few
> years. You will probably get enjoyment from simply being "out there".

[Jim Cate]

In the interest of full disclosure, I recently placed an order for one
of the new 26M boats. Having carefully studied all the helpful advice
and unbiased evaluations posted on this and other newsgroups, it became
obvious to me that the Mac 26M was definitely the best choice in the
under $75,000 price range for my intended applications. So, I'm one of
the lucky few who will be able to take delivery of this wonderful new
model in the next few months, since demand far exeeds the supply, and
deliveries are normally several months behind schedule.

Thanks to all for the helpful and educational comments.

Jim

Jim Cate wrote:

>
> I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
> area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
> on the boat. Or, anyone else.
>
> For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
> advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
> some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
> get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
> ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
> a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
> motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
> the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> finder.)
>
> OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
> the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
> now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
> I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
> As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
> much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
> With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> can reportedly plane under sail.
>
> A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
> (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
> a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
> - 32-foot boats.
>
> Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
> of the new 26M would be appreciated.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>

[Jim Cate]

In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
port within a few hours. If you can only sail on weekends, that's an
"obvious advantage" over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good
sailing area, and six hours to motor back.

Jim

JAXAshby wrote:

>>However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing
>
>
> not that anyone but you can see.

[Jim Cate]

Donal wrote:

> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>katysails wrote:
>>
>>>Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
>>>boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
>>>boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years.
>
> Your
>
>>>analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if
>
> a
>
>>>product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it
>
> will
>
>>>take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company
>
> might
>
>>>then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the
>
> market
>
>>>for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
>>>people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their
>
> rate of
>
>>>repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you
>
> are
>
>>>planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
>>>wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a
>
> bad
>
>>>reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
>>>here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
>>>comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now
>
> quit
>
>>>wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
>>>sail.
>>>
>>
>>Katy, first regarding your comment that I need to go learn to sail, as
>>previously mentioned, I have sailed a 37-ft O'Day, 40-ft Valiant (weeks
>>charter), Cal 34, Cat 30 Endeavor 32, etc., etc. I'm seeking to extend
>>my sailing experience.
>
>
> First, I'd like to point out that most of the replies have been genuine
> attempts to be helpful.
>
> Second, it doesn't really matter what boat you buy - at least for a few
> years. You will probably get enjoyment from simply being "out there".
>
>
>
>
>
>>Regarding the reputation of the MacGregors, I realize that it isn't the
>>same type of boat as fixed keel boats such as the Valiant and the O'Day.
>> However, they entail certain obvious advantages for sailing in bay
>>areas and with respect to their ability to get to a desired sailing area
>>quickly, and to return quickly, and to getting through marginal channels
>
>
> This is the heart of the matter.
>
> You seem to want a sailing vessel. However, you also want to keep your
> boat about 25 miles from your sailing area. If you really must keep your
> boat so far from a sailing ground, then I think that you should tell us why.
> Perhaps that will produce different responses from people.
>
> > Regards
>
> Donal
> _______________________________

You asked why I wanted to keep the boat 25 miles from the sailing area.
What I meant was that it is 25 miles from the blue water sailing areas
in the Gulf, that I prefer. In our region, 95% of the marinas and slips
are in the Kemah-Seabrook area, located between Houston and Galveston.
I think the reason most people leave their boats here is that it is
some distance inland and considered safer from hurricanes and other
weather issues. There is a large bay near here in which we can sail for
the afternoon. As mentioned below, I recently placed an order for one
of the Mac 26M's. When it's delivered, I'll be able to motor down to
Galveston and to the offshore blue water in about two hours. Or, I can
tow the boat down to various points on the coast and launch it there. -
I'll try several sailing areas and see how they compare and report back
to the group.

Jim

>

[DSK]

Jim Cate wrote:
> In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
> to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
> port within a few hours.

Umm, no. The "obvious advantage" here is that you can get shaken and
deafened while putt-putting out into more open water, then bobbing
around with (or without, doesn't make much difference) sail up, then
reversing the process.

A few days ago I went sailing around our marina. Slaloming among the
outer pilings is fun.

"Good sailing waters" is where good sailors sail.


> ... If you can only sail on weekends, that's an
> "obvious advantage" over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good
> sailing area, and six hours to motor back.

You've been sold a bill of goods. You either should 1- keep the boat
closer to where you want to sail or 2- get a boat that can be enjoyably
sailed in waters a practical distance away. There are many solutions to
every problem, and the one you've fixed on is a rather poor one IMHO.

Meanwhile, you get to ride around on your new boat (did you get red or
blue?) while subsidizing your local Macgregor dealers lifestyle. Enjoy.

FB
Doug King

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jim stated:
> Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
> used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.
>
> So the MacGregor obviously fits OYUR criteria...go buy one, but don't come
> whining back here...but then, maybe you're like Horvath with his blind love
> of Hunter's....

1) As you suggested, I did place an order for one of the 26M's.

2) I won't come whining back to the group.

3) I'll be glad to report on my sailing experiences if anyone is
interested.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Ok. Well, I think we're pretty much finished with you. Just about
> everyone, including Jax, has tried to be helpful. You're not having
> any. And, I guess we'll just have to live with the fact that either you're
> not too bright or an asshole who is not too bright.

Well, Johathan, if I'm that dumb, or that much of an asshole, I'm
assuming that you won't be reading any more of my notes or responding to
them. - In that case, all you have to do is to press the "down arrow"
(on the lower right side of your keyboard), and you can quickly
pass by my notes and move on to another topic. Or, even more convenient,
you can easily set up a filter that will filter out all my notes, and
all notes addressed to me, so that you don't even have to hit your
"down" arrow.

So your problems are solved, Johathan. - If you meant what you said,
that is.

Jim
>

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> autosteering? Do they make one for the 'x' model. That steering wheel is
> like, 14'' dia..
>
> SV
>

I'm not going to sit in that cockpit all the way from Galveston to the
Keys.

Jim

>
> "JAXAshby" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>okay, a radar as long as it is at least 4kw and has a CRT screen rather
>
> than an
>
>>LCD.
>>
>>
>>>C'mon Jax, give the pedant a break. I saw a mac motoring out the race
>>>equipped with radar.Gave me pause. Kind of like a mouse crawling up an
>>>elephants leg with rape on its mind.
>>>
>>>On 01 Apr 2004 15:52:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>you are
>>>>>
>>>>>>forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your
>
> part
>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>>would doom you to Hell for eternity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
>>>>>or VHF?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>nope.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> As the NG moderator, I do.

For my information, what material are you moderating out? What's
permitted, and what isn't? And are the rules different for Mac owners
and fixed hull owners?

Jim


>
> SV
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Scott, you certainly don't have to read or respond to my notes.
>>It's rather easy to click the down arrow and move on to another topic.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>Scott Vernon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
>>>>
>>>>As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
>>>>question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
>>>>statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
>>>>by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
>>>>determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
>>>>had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
>>>>Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
>>>>obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
>>>>26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
>>>>models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
>>>>corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
>>>>talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M
>
> entailed.
>
>>>>In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
>>>>pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
>>>>that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
>>>>the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
>>>>boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
>>>>intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
>>>>
>>>>Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jim Cate wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
>>>>>area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
>>>>>on the boat. Or, anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>>For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
>>>>>advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
>>>>>regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
>>>>>sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and
>
> doing
>
>>>>>some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
>>>>>will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
>>>>>get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
>>>>>than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
>>>>>issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
>>>>>hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
>>>>>ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
>>>>>islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
>>>>>a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots
>
> under
>
>>>>>motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina
>
> to
>
>>>>>the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
>>>>>finder.)
>>>>>
>>>>>OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
>>>>>anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
>>>>>the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
>>>>>now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel
>
> (which
>
>>>>>I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
>>>>>extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
>>>>>reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
>>>>>and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the
>
> years.
>
>>>>>As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
>>>>>comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
>>>>>much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
>>>>>With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
>>>>>can reportedly plane under sail.
>>>>>
>>>>>A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
>>>>>still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
>>>>>kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
>>>>>conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
>
> Mac.
>
>>>>>(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
>>>>>a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
>>>>>fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used
>
> 30
>
>>>>>- 32-foot boats.
>>>>>
>>>>>Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
>>>>>of the new 26M would be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>

[JAXAshby]

jim, how many boats do you expect to sell from this little piece of advertising
fluff you did here?

>In the interest of full disclosure,

What full disclosure? That you sell these things? That this whole thread was
a piece of advertising fluff?

>I recently placed an order for one
>of the new 26M boats. Having carefully studied all the helpful advice
>and unbiased evaluations posted on this and other newsgroups, it became
>obvious to me that the Mac 26M was definitely the best choice in the
>under $75,000 price range for my intended applications. So, I'm one of
>the lucky few who will be able to take delivery of this wonderful new
>model in the next few months, since demand far exeeds the supply, and
>deliveries are normally several months behind schedule.
>
>Thanks to all for the helpful and educational comments.
>
>Jim
>
>Jim Cate wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
>> area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
>> on the boat. Or, anyone else.
>>
>> For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
>> advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
>> regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
>> sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
>> some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
>> will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
>> get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
>> than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
>> issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
>> hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
>> ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
>> islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
>> a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
>> motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
>> the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
>> finder.)
>>
>> OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
>> anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
>> the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
>> now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
>> I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
>> extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
>> reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
>> and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
>> As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
>> comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
>> much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
>> With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
>> can reportedly plane under sail.
>>
>> A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
>> still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
>> kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
>> conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
>> (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
>> a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
>> fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
>> - 32-foot boats.
>>
>> Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
>> of the new 26M would be appreciated.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

SPAM!!

>In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
>to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
>port within a few hours. If you can only sail on weekends, that's an
>"obvious advantage" over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good
>sailing area, and six hours to motor back.
>
>Jim
>
>JAXAshby wrote:
>
>>>However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing
>>
>>
>> not that anyone but you can see.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

SPAM!!

>You asked why I wanted to keep the boat 25 miles from the sailing area.
>What I meant was that it is 25 miles from the blue water sailing areas
>in the Gulf, that I prefer. In our region, 95% of the marinas and slips
>are in the Kemah-Seabrook area, located between Houston and Galveston.
>I think the reason most people leave their boats here is that it is
>some distance inland and considered safer from hurricanes and other
>weather issues. There is a large bay near here in which we can sail for
>the afternoon. As mentioned below, I recently placed an order for one
>of the Mac 26M's. When it's delivered, I'll be able to motor down to
>Galveston and to the offshore blue water in about two hours. Or, I can
>tow the boat down to various points on the coast and launch it there. -
>I'll try several sailing areas and see how they compare and report back
>to the group.
>
>Jim
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

SPAM!!

>Well, Johathan, if I'm that dumb, or that much of an asshole, I'm
>assuming that you won't be reading any more of my notes or responding to
>them. - In that case, all you have to do is to press the "down arrow"
>(on the lower right side of your keyboard), and you can quickly
>pass by my notes and move on to another topic. Or, even more convenient,
>you can easily set up a filter that will filter out all my notes, and
>all notes addressed to me, so that you don't even have to hit your
>"down" arrow.
>
>So your problems are solved, Johathan. - If you meant what you said,
>that is.
>
>Jim
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > As the NG moderator, I do.
>
> For my information, what material are you moderating out?

that's for me to know, and you to find out.........later, much later.


>What's
> permitted, and what isn't?


I'll let you know if you cross the line.


>And are the rules different for Mac owners
> and fixed hull owners?

NO

[Scott Vernon]

stop it jax, you're making me hungry.


"JAXAshby" > wrote ...
> SPAM!!
> SPAM!!
> SPAM!!

[Jonathan Ganz]

Well, Jhim, the facts are that you already bought your boat, and
were looking here for some sort of validation. You didn't get it,
decided no one responded properly, then decided to get on your
high horse about lack of response. Sounds to me like you're the
one who needs to press the down arrow. I mean the lever on the
toilet. You're clearly dumb and an asshole, but not a winner there
either.

Since you don't like what I have to say, feel free to filter me out.
I've been here a long time. I'll be here long after you're sick of
your crackerjack box boat and have to sell it at a huge loss.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > Ok. Well, I think we're pretty much finished with you. Just about
> > everyone, including Jax, has tried to be helpful. You're not having
> > any. And, I guess we'll just have to live with the fact that either
you're
> > not too bright or an asshole who is not too bright.
>
> Well, Johathan, if I'm that dumb, or that much of an asshole, I'm
> assuming that you won't be reading any more of my notes or responding to
> them. - In that case, all you have to do is to press the "down arrow"
> (on the lower right side of your keyboard), and you can quickly
> pass by my notes and move on to another topic. Or, even more convenient,
> you can easily set up a filter that will filter out all my notes, and
> all notes addressed to me, so that you don't even have to hit your
> "down" arrow.
>
> So your problems are solved, Johathan. - If you meant what you said,
> that is.
>
> Jim
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

The rules are obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
You're obviously lacking in that department.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > As the NG moderator, I do.
>
> For my information, what material are you moderating out? What's
> permitted, and what isn't? And are the rules different for Mac owners
> and fixed hull owners?
>
> Jim
>
>
> >
> > SV
> >
> > "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Scott, you certainly don't have to read or respond to my notes.
> >>It's rather easy to click the down arrow and move on to another topic.
> >>
> >>Jim
> >>
> >>Scott Vernon wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.
> >>>>
> >>>>As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
> >>>>question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
> >>>>statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were
posted
> >>>>by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
> >>>>determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone
who
> >>>>had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
> >>>>Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
> >>>>obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
> >>>>26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
> >>>>models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
> >>>>corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they
were
> >>>>talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M
> >
> > entailed.
> >
> >>>>In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
> >>>>pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
> >>>>that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
> >>>>the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a
great
> >>>>boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
> >>>>intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.
> >>>>
> >>>>Jim
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Jim Cate wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the
Galveston-Houston
> >>>>>area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or
sailed
> >>>>>on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have
some
> >>>>>advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> >>>>>regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> >>>>>sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and
> >
> > doing
> >
> >>>>>some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> >>>>>will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can
therefore
> >>>>>get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> >>>>>than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> >>>>>issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> >>>>>hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the
boat's
> >>>>>ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> >>>>>islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant,
although
> >>>>>a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots
> >
> > under
> >
> >>>>>motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina
> >
> > to
> >
> >>>>>the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> >>>>>finder.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> >>>>>anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice.
Also,
> >>>>>the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. -
It
> >>>>>now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel
> >
> > (which
> >
> >>>>>I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> >>>>>extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> >>>>>reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> >>>>>and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the
> >
> > years.
> >
> >>>>>As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> >>>>>comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is
clearly
> >>>>>much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the
video.)
> >>>>>With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> >>>>>can reportedly plane under sail.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> >>>>>still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> >>>>>kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> >>>>>conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
> >
> > Mac.
> >
> >>>>>(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours
on
> >>>>>a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> >>>>>fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used
> >
> > 30
> >
> >>>>>- 32-foot boats.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring
characteristics
> >>>>>of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Jim
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

You forgot to mention that you're an idiot.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
> In the interest of full disclosure, I recently placed an order for one
> of the new 26M boats. Having carefully studied all the helpful advice
> and unbiased evaluations posted on this and other newsgroups, it became
> obvious to me that the Mac 26M was definitely the best choice in the
> under $75,000 price range for my intended applications. So, I'm one of
> the lucky few who will be able to take delivery of this wonderful new
> model in the next few months, since demand far exeeds the supply, and
> deliveries are normally several months behind schedule.
>
> Thanks to all for the helpful and educational comments.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Cate wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
> > area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
> > on the boat. Or, anyone else.
> >
> > For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
> > advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
> > regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
> > sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
> > some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
> > will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
> > get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
> > than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
> > issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
> > hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
> > ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
> > islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
> > a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
> > motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
> > the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
> > finder.)
> >
> > OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
> > anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
> > the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
> > now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
> > I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
> > extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
> > reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
> > and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
> > As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
> > comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
> > much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
> > With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
> > can reportedly plane under sail.
> >
> > A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
> > still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
> > kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
> > conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
> > (I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
> > a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
> > fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
> > - 32-foot boats.
> >
> > Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
> > of the new 26M would be appreciated.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

So you were just trolling.

You will be back whining.

Sailing experiences and a Mac are not compatible.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> katysails wrote:
>
> > Jim stated:
> > Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
> > used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.
> >
> > So the MacGregor obviously fits OYUR criteria...go buy one, but don't
come
> > whining back here...but then, maybe you're like Horvath with his blind
love
> > of Hunter's....
>
> 1) As you suggested, I did place an order for one of the 26M's.
>
> 2) I won't come whining back to the group.
>
> 3) I'll be glad to report on my sailing experiences if anyone is
> interested.
>
> Jim
>
>

[katysails]

Jax cried:
SPAM!!

I'm of the opinion that the guy is a MacGregor infiltrate, sent by the
company to turn the attention of the group on their sorry product...
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim said: 1) As you suggested, I did place an order for one of the 26M's.

It's your money, honey...

2) I won't come whining back to the group.

Is this signed in vlood?

3) I'll be glad to report on my sailing experiences if anyone is
interested.

Sailing stories, yes. Mac advertisements, no.


--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim suggested:
In that case, all you have to do is to press the "down arrow"
(on the lower right side of your keyboard), and you can quickly
pass by my notes and move on to another topic

That is not with in the spirit of this ng. we all read every single word
posted here because it is our duty to siphon and funnel the miscreants into
some semblance of acceptance. You have already admitted your transgression
of buying a Mac, have promised to stop whining, and have indicated you're
going to start sailing, so we've had some positive effect on you. You had
purchased the sad piece of fiberglass before we could do anything about it,
but oh, well...at least the money goes into the US economy...
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Donal]

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
> There is a large bay near here in which we can sail for
> the afternoon. As mentioned below, I recently placed an order for one
> of the Mac 26M's. When it's delivered, I'll be able to motor down to
> Galveston and to the offshore blue water in about two hours.

This reminds me of my plans to travel to France in 3 & 1/2 hours in my
Bayliner. Very soon after I took delivery of the boat, I realised that I
would never take her to France. However, I still had 10 *very* good years
of sailing (ok - motoring) in her.


> Or, I can
> tow the boat down to various points on the coast and launch it there. -

Sounds like hard work....... OK if you are under 25 years old.


> I'll try several sailing areas and see how they compare and report back
> to the group.

I look forward to your reports.

When are you due to take delivery?



Regards


Donal
--

[Jim Cate]

DSK wrote:
> Jim Cate wrote:
>
>> In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
>> to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
>> port within a few hours.
>
>
> Umm, no. The "obvious advantage" here is that you can get shaken and
> deafened while putt-putting out into more open water, then bobbing
> around with (or without, doesn't make much difference) sail up, then
> reversing the process.

So, it would be better for me to get a larger, keel boat that takes 5
hours to "ROAR" out to the good sailing water, and then another 5 hours
to "ROAR" back to home port? Under that scenario, When do we start
having fun? How long to I have to listen to that diesel?

Jim


>
> A few days ago I went sailing around our marina. Slaloming among the
> outer pilings is fun.
>
> "Good sailing waters" is where good sailors sail.
>
>
>> ... If you can only sail on weekends, that's an "obvious advantage"
>> over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good sailing area, and
>> six hours to motor back.
>
>
> You've been sold a bill of goods. You either should 1- keep the boat
> closer to where you want to sail or 2- get a boat that can be enjoyably
> sailed in waters a practical distance away. There are many solutions to
> every problem, and the one you've fixed on is a rather poor one IMHO.
>
> Meanwhile, you get to ride around on your new boat (did you get red or
> blue?) while subsidizing your local Macgregor dealers lifestyle. Enjoy.
>

Actually, I'm one of the fortunate few who will be able to get delivery
of this spectacular new boat this year. Most of their production for the
year has already been commited. (I'm getting the white model.)

> FBhis
> Doug King
>

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jax cried:
> SPAM!!
>
> I'm of the opinion that the guy is a MacGregor infiltrate, sent by the
> company to turn the attention of the group on their sorry product...

I am beginning to understand that this group considers Mac enthusiasts
something like "easy targets" and great sport for Mac attacks.
Apparently, slamming Mac owners or enthusiasts is considered something
like shooting fish in a barrel. - We are supposed to become intimidated
and quickly run off.

Well, this one isn't cooperating, and won't, and apparently, that's not
going down very well. Helpful hint. - If it takes two months, three
months, six months, 12 months, or whatever, , I'm not going to turn tail
and run. Get used to it.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

JAXAshby wrote:

> SPAM!!

But true!
Jim



>
>
>>You asked why I wanted to keep the boat 25 miles from the sailing area.
>>What I meant was that it is 25 miles from the blue water sailing areas
>>in the Gulf, that I prefer. In our region, 95% of the marinas and slips
>>are in the Kemah-Seabrook area, located between Houston and Galveston.
>>I think the reason most people leave their boats here is that it is
>>some distance inland and considered safer from hurricanes and other
>>weather issues. There is a large bay near here in which we can sail for
>>the afternoon. As mentioned below, I recently placed an order for one
>>of the Mac 26M's. When it's delivered, I'll be able to motor down to
>>Galveston and to the offshore blue water in about two hours. Or, I can
>>tow the boat down to various points on the coast and launch it there. -
>>I'll try several sailing areas and see how they compare and report back
>>to the group.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Jim Cate]

Donal wrote:

> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>There is a large bay near here in which we can sail for
>>the afternoon. As mentioned below, I recently placed an order for one
>>of the Mac 26M's. When it's delivered, I'll be able to motor down to
>>Galveston and to the offshore blue water in about two hours.
>
>
> This reminds me of my plans to travel to France in 3 & 1/2 hours in my
> Bayliner. Very soon after I took delivery of the boat, I realised that I
> would never take her to France. However, I still had 10 *very* good years
> of sailing (ok - motoring) in her.
>
>
>
>> Or, I can
>>tow the boat down to various points on the coast and launch it there. -
>
>
> Sounds like hard work....... OK if you are under 25 years old.
>
>
>
>>I'll try several sailing areas and see how they compare and report back
>>to the group.
>
>
> I look forward to your reports.
>
> When are you due to take delivery?

By May 10-15 I should be able to take her out under varying conditions,
and I'll post sone further reports.

Jim
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Donal
> --
>
>
>
>

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> So you were just trolling.

Nope. If someone had posted some substantive information about the
current model (the 26M), I would have considered it carefully. But all
I got was a crock of **** from members who didn't know anything about
the current model, but who, despite having never sailed the boat or even
spoken with someone who did, didn't hesitate to bash the boat and me.
Apparently, Mac owners are considered an easy target on this ng, and
bashing Mac owners is considered an a great spectator sport. - Of
course, what that tells me is that some of the contributors on this
particular string have a problem. The problem isn't the boat, it's the
asa contributors who don't know what the hell they are talking about.

>
> You will be back whining.

How much are you willing to put down on that particular prediction?
$500? $200? $25? $5????.


>
> Sailing experiences and a Mac are not compatible.
>
Paying marina fees, insurance, repairs, bottom treatments, etc., to keep
a large keel boat in a marina 99% of the time isn't very compatible with
sailing either.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jim said: 1) As you suggested, I did place an order for one of the 26M's.
>
> It's your money, honey...
>
> 2) I won't come whining back to the group.
>
> Is this signed in vlood?

I'm collecting bets on that one. Would you like me to include your name?
For what amount?


>
> 3) I'll be glad to report on my sailing experiences if anyone is
> interested.
>
> Sailing stories, yes. Mac advertisements, no.
>
>
In other words, only sailing stories that 'fit' your preconseptions
regarding the 26M are going to be permitted?

Jim

[JAXAshby]

or a smaller boat.

>DSK wrote:
>> Jim Cate wrote:
>>
>>> In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
>>> to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
>>> port within a few hours.
>>
>>
>> Umm, no. The "obvious advantage" here is that you can get shaken and
>> deafened while putt-putting out into more open water, then bobbing
>> around with (or without, doesn't make much difference) sail up, then
>> reversing the process.
>
>So, it would be better for me to get a larger, keel boat that takes 5
>hours to "ROAR" out to the good sailing water, and then another 5 hours
>to "ROAR" back to home port? Under that scenario, When do we start
>having fun? How long to I have to listen to that diesel?
>
>Jim
>
>
>>
>> A few days ago I went sailing around our marina. Slaloming among the
>> outer pilings is fun.
>>
>> "Good sailing waters" is where good sailors sail.
>>
>>
>>> ... If you can only sail on weekends, that's an "obvious advantage"
>>> over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good sailing area, and
>>> six hours to motor back.
>>
>>
>> You've been sold a bill of goods. You either should 1- keep the boat
>> closer to where you want to sail or 2- get a boat that can be enjoyably
>> sailed in waters a practical distance away. There are many solutions to
>> every problem, and the one you've fixed on is a rather poor one IMHO.
>>
>> Meanwhile, you get to ride around on your new boat (did you get red or
>> blue?) while subsidizing your local Macgregor dealers lifestyle. Enjoy.
>>
>
>Actually, I'm one of the fortunate few who will be able to get delivery
>of this spectacular new boat this year. Most of their production for the
>year has already been commited. (I'm getting the white model.)
>
>> FBhis
>> Doug King
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

>slamming Mac owners or enthusiasts is considered something
>like shooting fish in a barrel.

yup, they be stew ped all right

[JAXAshby]

> I'm not going to turn tail
>and run

jim, that just makes you dumber than the *average* mac buyer.

[JAXAshby]

>> SPAM!!
>
>But true!
>Jim

[JAXAshby]

>By May 10-15 I ****************************************** should
***************************************** be able to take her out under varying
conditions,

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Well, Jhim, the facts are that you already bought your boat, and
> were looking here for some sort of validation.

Nope. I hadn't bought the boat until last week, and I was hoping to get
some information from someone who had sailed the 26M, or who has spoken
with someone who had sailed the 26M, or who knew someting about it.

You didn't get it,
> decided no one responded properly, then decided to get on your
> high horse about lack of response.

Wrong again! I read all the asinine, opinionated comments from
contributors such as yourself and discovered that the Mac-bashers had
very little of substance to to say. Lots of crap, lots of biased
opinionating, but very little actual information.


Sounds to me like you're the
> one who needs to press the down arrow. I mean the lever on the
> toilet. You're clearly dumb and an asshole, but not a winner there
> either.
>
> Since you don't like what I have to say, feel free to filter me out.
> I've been here a long time. I'll be here long after you're sick of
> your crackerjack box boat and have to sell it at a huge loss.
>
It's your choice as to whether you want to continue reading or
responding to my notes. But don't hold your breath expecting me to fold,
or run away.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jim suggested:
> In that case, all you have to do is to press the "down arrow"
> (on the lower right side of your keyboard), and you can quickly
> pass by my notes and move on to another topic
>
> That is not with in the spirit of this ng. we all read every single word
> posted here because it is our duty to siphon and funnel the miscreants into
> some semblance of acceptance. You have already admitted your transgression
> of buying a Mac, have promised to stop whining, and have indicated you're
> going to start sailing, so we've had some positive effect on you. You had
> purchased the sad piece of fiberglass before we could do anything about it,
>

This isn't what happened at all. I posted my questions several times on
this an on the cruising ng and scanned the reponses for over a month
hoping to get some factual or substantive information regarding the 26M.
It was only after weeks of "Mac bashings" from contributors who, for
the most part, had never even seen the 26M, much less sailed her, that I
concluded that the Mac-Bashers were actually the ones with the problems,
not the answers.

but oh, well...at least the money goes into the US economy...

Yes, at least the California economy will benefit.



Jim

[Jim Cate]

JAXAshby wrote:

> jim, how many boats do you expect to sell from this little piece of advertising
> fluff you did here?
>
>
>>In the interest of full disclosure,
>
>
> What full disclosure? That you sell these things? That this whole thread was
> a piece of advertising fluff?


If I had continued this discussion without disclosing that I recently
placed an order for the Mac, I would be accused of not being straignt
with the group concerning my intentions and interests. That's so obvious
it's not even worth further discussion.

Jim

[katysails]

Jim "threatened": Helpful hint. - If it takes two months, three
months, six months, 12 months, or whatever, , I'm not going to turn tail
and run.

Snort...better men than you have made that claim....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim boasted:
By May 10-15 I should be able to take her out under varying conditions,
and I'll post sone further reports.

I would suggest 30-40not conditions with some 15 footers....make sure you
take a life raft....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim asked:
In other words, only sailing stories that 'fit' your preconseptions
regarding the 26M are going to be permitted?

Oh, we'll permit you to tell us your Mac stories and then we'll tear them
apart just as we're doing now....and I don't bet...but it's obvious that you
do gamble since you are the one that bought a Mac....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim admitted buying his boat " only after weeks of "Mac bashings" My, what
great criteria for buying a boat.
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Jonathan Ganz]

Nah, his ego is way too big for that. He bought a loser, now
he has to justify it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JAXAshby" > wrote in message
...
> or a smaller boat.
>
> >DSK wrote:
> >> Jim Cate wrote:
> >>
> >>> In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
> >>> to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
> >>> port within a few hours.
> >>
> >>
> >> Umm, no. The "obvious advantage" here is that you can get shaken and
> >> deafened while putt-putting out into more open water, then bobbing
> >> around with (or without, doesn't make much difference) sail up, then
> >> reversing the process.
> >
> >So, it would be better for me to get a larger, keel boat that takes 5
> >hours to "ROAR" out to the good sailing water, and then another 5 hours
> >to "ROAR" back to home port? Under that scenario, When do we start
> >having fun? How long to I have to listen to that diesel?
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >
> >>
> >> A few days ago I went sailing around our marina. Slaloming among the
> >> outer pilings is fun.
> >>
> >> "Good sailing waters" is where good sailors sail.
> >>
> >>
> >>> ... If you can only sail on weekends, that's an "obvious advantage"
> >>> over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good sailing area, and
> >>> six hours to motor back.
> >>
> >>
> >> You've been sold a bill of goods. You either should 1- keep the boat
> >> closer to where you want to sail or 2- get a boat that can be enjoyably
> >> sailed in waters a practical distance away. There are many solutions to
> >> every problem, and the one you've fixed on is a rather poor one IMHO.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, you get to ride around on your new boat (did you get red or
> >> blue?) while subsidizing your local Macgregor dealers lifestyle. Enjoy.
> >>
> >
> >Actually, I'm one of the fortunate few who will be able to get delivery
> >of this spectacular new boat this year. Most of their production for the
> >year has already been commited. (I'm getting the white model.)
> >
> >> FBhis
> >> Doug King
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Yes, Mac "enthusiasts" are easy targets, like shooting fish in
a barrel, because anyone dumb enough to buy one isn't much
of a sailor. I for one have no problem with you sticking around.
Sometimes even shooting fish in a barrel is good, clean fun. Also,
you might learn something and then decide to sell that piece of
crap and get a real boat.

Many of us have been here for years. So far, you haven't proven
yourself to be anything more than a dummy, and a temporary one
at that. If you post about the high quality of Macs, you're inviting
all sorts of slamming. I suggest you keep quite for the most part,
and occasionally try to ask an intelligent question. But, feel free
to do as you please.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> katysails wrote:
>
> > Jax cried:
> > SPAM!!
> >
> > I'm of the opinion that the guy is a MacGregor infiltrate, sent by the
> > company to turn the attention of the group on their sorry product...
>
> I am beginning to understand that this group considers Mac enthusiasts
> something like "easy targets" and great sport for Mac attacks.
> Apparently, slamming Mac owners or enthusiasts is considered something
> like shooting fish in a barrel. - We are supposed to become intimidated
> and quickly run off.
>
> Well, this one isn't cooperating, and won't, and apparently, that's not
> going down very well. Helpful hint. - If it takes two months, three
> months, six months, 12 months, or whatever, , I'm not going to turn tail
> and run. Get used to it.
>
> Jim
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Varying conditions?? In Galveston? Like more mosquitoes than
usual?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Donal wrote:
>
> > "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>There is a large bay near here in which we can sail for
> >>the afternoon. As mentioned below, I recently placed an order for one
> >>of the Mac 26M's. When it's delivered, I'll be able to motor down to
> >>Galveston and to the offshore blue water in about two hours.
> >
> >
> > This reminds me of my plans to travel to France in 3 & 1/2 hours in my
> > Bayliner. Very soon after I took delivery of the boat, I realised that
I
> > would never take her to France. However, I still had 10 *very* good
years
> > of sailing (ok - motoring) in her.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Or, I can
> >>tow the boat down to various points on the coast and launch it there. -
> >
> >
> > Sounds like hard work....... OK if you are under 25 years old.
> >
> >
> >
> >>I'll try several sailing areas and see how they compare and report back
> >>to the group.
> >
> >
> > I look forward to your reports.
> >
> > When are you due to take delivery?
>
> By May 10-15 I should be able to take her out under varying conditions,
> and I'll post sone further reports.
>
> Jim
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > Donal
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Well fool, since it was pretty clear that no one has the information
you're looking for then I don't really understand why you keep
posting about your bad purchase. Perhaps you can explain it?
It seems to me you just type the same crap over and over,
expecting to get a cordial response? Either you're stupid or
a troll. You pick.

I'd be happy to bet you, but I've already won. You're whining
already!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > So you were just trolling.
>
> Nope. If someone had posted some substantive information about the
> current model (the 26M), I would have considered it carefully. But all
> I got was a crock of **** from members who didn't know anything about
> the current model, but who, despite having never sailed the boat or even
> spoken with someone who did, didn't hesitate to bash the boat and me.
> Apparently, Mac owners are considered an easy target on this ng, and
> bashing Mac owners is considered an a great spectator sport. - Of
> course, what that tells me is that some of the contributors on this
> particular string have a problem. The problem isn't the boat, it's the
> asa contributors who don't know what the hell they are talking about.
>
> >
> > You will be back whining.
>
> How much are you willing to put down on that particular prediction?
> $500? $200? $25? $5????.
>
>
> >
> > Sailing experiences and a Mac are not compatible.
> >
> Paying marina fees, insurance, repairs, bottom treatments, etc., to keep
> a large keel boat in a marina 99% of the time isn't very compatible with
> sailing either.
>
> Jim
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Bull. You bought it weeks ago and are now trying to justify the purchase.
Don't start lying already. It's not worth it.

If we have nothing of substance to say, then why are you still listening.

I think you're going to stay around just long enough to pop a cork...
look out folks, he's almost there!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > Well, Jhim, the facts are that you already bought your boat, and
> > were looking here for some sort of validation.
>
> Nope. I hadn't bought the boat until last week, and I was hoping to get
> some information from someone who had sailed the 26M, or who has spoken
> with someone who had sailed the 26M, or who knew someting about it.
>
> You didn't get it,
> > decided no one responded properly, then decided to get on your
> > high horse about lack of response.
>
> Wrong again! I read all the asinine, opinionated comments from
> contributors such as yourself and discovered that the Mac-bashers had
> very little of substance to to say. Lots of crap, lots of biased
> opinionating, but very little actual information.
>
>
> Sounds to me like you're the
> > one who needs to press the down arrow. I mean the lever on the
> > toilet. You're clearly dumb and an asshole, but not a winner there
> > either.
> >
> > Since you don't like what I have to say, feel free to filter me out.
> > I've been here a long time. I'll be here long after you're sick of
> > your crackerjack box boat and have to sell it at a huge loss.
> >
> It's your choice as to whether you want to continue reading or
> responding to my notes. But don't hold your breath expecting me to fold,
> or run away.
>
> Jim
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

So you're not straight? Oh no!!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> JAXAshby wrote:
>
> > jim, how many boats do you expect to sell from this little piece of
advertising
> > fluff you did here?
> >
> >
> >>In the interest of full disclosure,
> >
> >
> > What full disclosure? That you sell these things? That this whole
thread was
> > a piece of advertising fluff?
>
>
> If I had continued this discussion without disclosing that I recently
> placed an order for the Mac, I would be accused of not being straignt
> with the group concerning my intentions and interests. That's so obvious
> it's not even worth further discussion.
>
> Jim
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

If *what* takes 2,3,6 months?

SCOTTY

"katysails" > wrote in message
...
> Jim "threatened": Helpful hint. - If it takes two months, three
> months, six months, 12 months, or whatever, , I'm not going to turn tail
> and run.
>
> Snort...better men than you have made that claim....
>
> --
> katysails
> s/v Chanteuse
> Kirie Elite 32
> http://katysails.tripod.com
>
> "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
> and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

Can't you sail out to your ''blue water''?

SV

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> DSK wrote:
> > Jim Cate wrote:
> >
> >> In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
> >> to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
> >> port within a few hours.
> >
> >
> > Umm, no. The "obvious advantage" here is that you can get shaken and
> > deafened while putt-putting out into more open water, then bobbing
> > around with (or without, doesn't make much difference) sail up, then
> > reversing the process.
>
> So, it would be better for me to get a larger, keel boat that takes 5
> hours to "ROAR" out to the good sailing water, and then another 5 hours
> to "ROAR" back to home port? Under that scenario, When do we start
> having fun? How long to I have to listen to that diesel?
>
> Jim
>
>
> >
> > A few days ago I went sailing around our marina. Slaloming among the
> > outer pilings is fun.
> >
> > "Good sailing waters" is where good sailors sail.
> >
> >
> >> ... If you can only sail on weekends, that's an "obvious advantage"
> >> over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good sailing area, and
> >> six hours to motor back.
> >
> >
> > You've been sold a bill of goods. You either should 1- keep the boat
> > closer to where you want to sail or 2- get a boat that can be enjoyably
> > sailed in waters a practical distance away. There are many solutions to
> > every problem, and the one you've fixed on is a rather poor one IMHO.
> >
> > Meanwhile, you get to ride around on your new boat (did you get red or
> > blue?) while subsidizing your local Macgregor dealers lifestyle. Enjoy.
> >
>
> Actually, I'm one of the fortunate few who will be able to get delivery
> of this spectacular new boat this year. Most of their production for the
> year has already been commited. (I'm getting the white model.)
>
> > FBhis
> > Doug King
> >
>

[Scott Vernon]

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
> despite having never sailed the boat or even
> spoken with someone who did, didn't hesitate to bash the boat and me.
> Apparently, Mac owners are considered an easy target on this ng, and
> bashing Mac owners is considered an a great spectator sport. -

and you never got the hint, did ya now?

SV

[Scott Vernon]

"Jonathan Ganz" > wrote...
> So you're not straight? Oh boy!!
>
> --

[Scott Vernon]

Jimbo, did you ask your silly questions on the Mac list, like I suggested?

SV

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > Well, Jhim, the facts are that you already bought your boat, and
> > were looking here for some sort of validation.
>
> Nope. I hadn't bought the boat until last week, and I was hoping to get
> some information from someone who had sailed the 26M, or who has spoken
> with someone who had sailed the 26M, or who knew someting about it.
>
> You didn't get it,
> > decided no one responded properly, then decided to get on your
> > high horse about lack of response.
>
> Wrong again! I read all the asinine, opinionated comments from
> contributors such as yourself and discovered that the Mac-bashers had
> very little of substance to to say. Lots of crap, lots of biased
> opinionating, but very little actual information.
>
>
> Sounds to me like you're the
> > one who needs to press the down arrow. I mean the lever on the
> > toilet. You're clearly dumb and an asshole, but not a winner there
> > either.
> >
> > Since you don't like what I have to say, feel free to filter me out.
> > I've been here a long time. I'll be here long after you're sick of
> > your crackerjack box boat and have to sell it at a huge loss.
> >
> It's your choice as to whether you want to continue reading or
> responding to my notes. But don't hold your breath expecting me to fold,
> or run away.
>
> Jim
>

[katysails]

Scotty asked:
If *what* takes 2,3,6 months?

For us to "accept" him and his Mac as viable alternatives to sailing....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Scott Vernon]

Oh. That will NEVER happen.

NEVER.

SV

"katysails" > wrote in message
...
> Scotty asked:
> If *what* takes 2,3,6 months?
>
> For us to "accept" him and his Mac as viable alternatives to sailing....
> --
> katysails
> s/v Chanteuse
> Kirie Elite 32
> http://katysails.tripod.com
>
> "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
> and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein
>
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Scotty, it's time to stop drinking. You're starting to get confused.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Jonathan Ganz" > wrote...
> > So you're not straight? Oh boy!!
> >
> > --
>
>

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Can't you sail out to your ''blue water''?



I have motored and sailed out to the blue water off Galveston, but it
takes around five-six hours. Most of the distance is in the Houston ship
channel, which isn't a pleasant sailing area. Most boat owners in this
area (Kemah-Seabrook, located between Houston and Galveston) seem to
prefer sailing in Galveston bay rather than going down to Galveston. -
This area is the third most popular boating center in the country, in
terms of vessels kept in marinas in the area. I understand that it's a
matter of convenience, in that they can get to their boats more
conveniently, and safety, in that the boats are more sheltered from
weather extremes.

Jim




>
> SV
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>DSK wrote:
>>
>>>Jim Cate wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
>>>>to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
>>>>port within a few hours.
>>>
>>>
>>>Umm, no. The "obvious advantage" here is that you can get shaken and
>>>deafened while putt-putting out into more open water, then bobbing
>>>around with (or without, doesn't make much difference) sail up, then
>>>reversing the process.
>>
>>So, it would be better for me to get a larger, keel boat that takes 5
>>hours to "ROAR" out to the good sailing water, and then another 5 hours
>>to "ROAR" back to home port? Under that scenario, When do we start
>>having fun? How long to I have to listen to that diesel?
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>>A few days ago I went sailing around our marina. Slaloming among the
>>>outer pilings is fun.
>>>
>>>"Good sailing waters" is where good sailors sail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>... If you can only sail on weekends, that's an "obvious advantage"
>>>>over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good sailing area, and
>>>>six hours to motor back.
>>>
>>>
>>>You've been sold a bill of goods. You either should 1- keep the boat
>>>closer to where you want to sail or 2- get a boat that can be enjoyably
>>>sailed in waters a practical distance away. There are many solutions to
>>>every problem, and the one you've fixed on is a rather poor one IMHO.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, you get to ride around on your new boat (did you get red or
>>>blue?) while subsidizing your local Macgregor dealers lifestyle. Enjoy.
>>>
>>
>>Actually, I'm one of the fortunate few who will be able to get delivery
>>of this spectacular new boat this year. Most of their production for the
>>year has already been commited. (I'm getting the white model.)
>>
>>
>>>FBhis
>>>Doug King
>>>
>>
>

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Scotty asked:
> If *what* takes 2,3,6 months?
>
> For us to "accept" him and his Mac as viable alternatives to sailing....

Nope. I'll be here for whatever time it takes for you to come to the
realization that you aren't going to intimidate me or drive me away. Get
used to the idea that not all Mac owners are easy targes who will cave
under the usual Mac-Bashing. Give it up, Katy. You're just wasting
everyone's time.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Yes, Mac "enthusiasts" are easy targets, like shooting fish in
> a barrel, because anyone dumb enough to buy one isn't much
> of a sailor. I for one have no problem with you sticking around.
> Sometimes even shooting fish in a barrel is good, clean fun. Also,
> you might learn something and then decide to sell that piece of
> crap and get a real boat.
>
> Many of us have been here for years. So far, you haven't proven
> yourself to be anything more than a dummy, and a temporary one
> at that.

Really? If I'm that stupid and my notes are that insignificant, why is
this discussion string the most extensive on the ng, with over 400
responses? Why, after a few days of responses, would any rational person
want to waste his time continuing to respond to a complete dummy, as you
describe me, over and over again, ad nauseum?

In case you hadn't noticed, your actions aren't consistent with your
words.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jim boasted:
> By May 10-15 I should be able to take her out under varying conditions,
> and I'll post sone further reports.
>
> I would suggest 30-40not conditions with some 15 footers....make sure you
> take a life raft....

Katy, what are 30-40not conditions? I don't think I've ever seen any of
those "not" conditions. - But I'll keep an eye out for them.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Well fool, since it was pretty clear that no one has the information
> you're looking for then I don't really understand why you keep
> posting about your bad purchase. Perhaps you can explain it?
> It seems to me you just type the same crap over and over,
> expecting to get a cordial response? Either you're stupid or
> a troll. You pick.

________________________________________--

As long as you keep posting the same crap over and over again, my
responses will be also be rather repetitive. My response to your first
stupid remarks remains appropriate for your more recent stupid remarks.
(But, of course, there's no law requiring you to continue to read my
notes or to respond to them.)

As posted above, if I'm really that stupid and my notes are that
insignificant, why is this discussion string the most extensive on the
ng, with over 400 responses? Why, after a few days of responses, would
any rational person want to waste his time continuing to respond to a
complete dummy, as you describe me, over and over again, ad nauseum?

In case you hadn't noticed, your actions aren't consistent with your
words.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Bull. You bought it weeks ago

That's a God damned lie.


and are now trying to justify the purchase.
> Don't start lying already. It's not worth it.
>
> If we have nothing of substance to say, then why are you still listening.
>
> I think you're going to stay around just long enough to pop a cork...
> look out folks, he's almost there!
>

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Jimbo, did you ask your silly questions on the Mac list, like I suggested?
>
> SV
>

Yes. The great majority on the Mac lists have one of the the older
models. I did correspond with and speak with some 26M owners.

Jim

[Scott Vernon]

Yup.


"Jim Cate" > wrote

> As long as I keep posting the same crap over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and again, I'll look like a fool.

Jim MacGregor

[Jim Cate]

JAXAshby wrote:

>>However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing
>
>
> not that anyone but you can see.

Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
seems to have several advantages.

(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.

(2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

(3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat.

(4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
the Mac for such shallow water activities.

I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).

(5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

Jim

[Scott Vernon]

"Jim Cate" > wrote
> I'll be here for whatever time it takes for you to come to the
> realization that you aren't going to intimidate me or drive me away.


Then you'll die here.


>Get
> used to the idea that I'm just wasting
> everyone's time.
>
> Jim

Yup.

[Scott Vernon]

Sailors describe wind speed in 'knots', Mac 26M drivers use 'MPH'.

SV


"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...

> >
> > I would suggest 30-40not conditions with some 15 footers....make sure
you
> > take a life raft....
>
> Katy, what are 30-40not conditions? I don't think I've ever seen any of
> those "not" conditions. - But I'll keep an eye out for them.
>
> Jim
>

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Nah, his ego is way too big for that. He bought a loser, now
> he has to justify it.
>
Johathan, the following note lists five advantages of the Mac 26M, while
recognizing some of its limitations and disadvantages. How about
addressing some of such substantive issues, rather than posting more
ridiculous personal attacks?

Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
seems to have several advantages.

(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.

(2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

(3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat.

(4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
the Mac for such shallow water activities.

I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).

(5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jax cried:
> SPAM!!
>
> I'm of the opinion that the guy is a MacGregor infiltrate, sent by the
> company to turn the attention of the group on their sorry product...

Katy, the following note lists five advantages of the Mac 26M, while
recognizing some of its limitations and disadvantages. How about
addressing some of these substantive issues, rather than posting more
ridiculous, childish personal attacks?

Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
seems to have several advantages.

(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.

(2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

(3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat.

(4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
the Mac for such shallow water activities.

I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).

(5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

Jim

[Scott Vernon]

"Jim Cate" > wrote >
> Really? If I'm that stupid and my notes are that insignificant, why is
> this discussion string the most extensive on the ng, with over 400
> responses?

The 'ol bobspit ploy, start a stupid troll, keep fueling it with dumber than
**** remarks, then claim to 'WIN' because ''his thread'' has the most posts.
Yup, you're a winner Jim, you and bob****, a couple of winners.

SV

[Scott Vernon]

Then why are you still here?

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > Jimbo, did you ask your silly questions on the Mac list, like I
suggested?
> >
> > SV
> >
>
> Yes. The great majority on the Mac lists have one of the the older
> models. I did correspond with and speak with some 26M owners.
>
> Jim
>

[Scott Vernon]

are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?

SV

"Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
>
> (1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.

[Jonathan Ganz]

Sure, I'm bored Jhm.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > Nah, his ego is way too big for that. He bought a loser, now
> > he has to justify it.
> >
> Johathan, the following note lists five advantages of the Mac 26M, while
> recognizing some of its limitations and disadvantages. How about
> addressing some of such substantive issues, rather than posting more
> ridiculous personal attacks?
>
> Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
> criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
> seems to have several advantages.
>
> (1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.

Get a catamaran or trimaran. Not only will you sail faster on most
points of sail, you can't sink them, you'll have the same if not more
room below, they don't heel much, so guests will feel safe. They
require less engine power to move, thus less fuel, noise, etc. Tris
and some cats can be trailered. They cost a bit more, but you could
easily find a used one in great shape for the same or less than a
piece of junk Mac26(who cares).

>
> (2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
> in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
> contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
> compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
> enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
> quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
> "better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
> racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

See #1.

> (3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
> to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
> while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
> power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
> preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
> "better" boat.
>

See #1.

> (4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
> is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
> were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
> and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
> turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
> contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
> as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
> respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
> to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
> play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
> must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
> the Mac for such shallow water activities.

See #1.

> I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
> will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
> that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
> understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
> therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).
>
> (5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
> the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
> the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
> wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
> talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
> only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
> larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

See #1.

> Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
> used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.
>
> Jim
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

I think he's already brain dead. Does anything else matter?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote
> > I'll be here for whatever time it takes for you to come to the
> > realization that you aren't going to intimidate me or drive me away.
>
>
> Then you'll die here.
>
>
> >Get
> > used to the idea that I'm just wasting
> > everyone's time.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Yup.
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Nah, you're a piker. When you get the thread into the 1000s, let me
know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > Yes, Mac "enthusiasts" are easy targets, like shooting fish in
> > a barrel, because anyone dumb enough to buy one isn't much
> > of a sailor. I for one have no problem with you sticking around.
> > Sometimes even shooting fish in a barrel is good, clean fun. Also,
> > you might learn something and then decide to sell that piece of
> > crap and get a real boat.
> >
> > Many of us have been here for years. So far, you haven't proven
> > yourself to be anything more than a dummy, and a temporary one
> > at that.
>
> Really? If I'm that stupid and my notes are that insignificant, why is
> this discussion string the most extensive on the ng, with over 400
> responses? Why, after a few days of responses, would any rational person
> want to waste his time continuing to respond to a complete dummy, as you
> describe me, over and over again, ad nauseum?
>
> In case you hadn't noticed, your actions aren't consistent with your
> words.
>
> Jim
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

I think he's under the impression that his head is double hulled.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>
> SV
>
> "Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
> >
> > (1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Keep posting the same crap over and over. Eventually, someone will
complain to your isp and you'll be toast.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> JAXAshby wrote:
>
> >>However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing
> >
> >
> > not that anyone but you can see.
>
> Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
> criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
> seems to have several advantages.
>
> (1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>
> (2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
> in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
> contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
> compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
> enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
> quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
> "better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
> racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)
>
> (3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
> to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
> while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
> power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
> preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
> "better" boat.
>
> (4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
> is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
> were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
> and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
> turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
> contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
> as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
> respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
> to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
> play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
> must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
> the Mac for such shallow water activities.
>
> I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
> will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
> that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
> understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
> therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).
>
> (5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
> the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
> the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
> wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
> talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
> only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
> larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.
>
> Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
> used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.
>
> Jim
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

They also know how to spell knots, not?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> Sailors describe wind speed in 'knots', Mac 26M drivers use 'MPH'.
>
> SV
>
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > >
> > > I would suggest 30-40not conditions with some 15 footers....make sure
> you
> > > take a life raft....
> >
> > Katy, what are 30-40not conditions? I don't think I've ever seen any of
> > those "not" conditions. - But I'll keep an eye out for them.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

You missed one.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> Yup.
>
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote
>
> > As long as I keep posting the same crap over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and again, I'll look like a fool.
>
> Jim MacGregor
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Prove it. I think you bought it a few weeks ago. I have it on
good authority. Prove I'm wrong.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > Bull. You bought it weeks ago
>
> That's a God damned lie.
>
>
> and are now trying to justify the purchase.
> > Don't start lying already. It's not worth it.
> >
> > If we have nothing of substance to say, then why are you still
listening.
> >
> > I think you're going to stay around just long enough to pop a cork...
> > look out folks, he's almost there!
> >
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Because he's either stupid, a troll, or trying to justify his poor choice.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" > wrote in message
...
> Then why are you still here?
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Scott Vernon wrote:
> >
> > > Jimbo, did you ask your silly questions on the Mac list, like I
> suggested?
> > >
> > > SV
> > >
> >
> > Yes. The great majority on the Mac lists have one of the the older
> > models. I did correspond with and speak with some 26M owners.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>

[katysails]

Jim boasted:
I'll be here for whatever time it takes for you to come to the
realization that you aren't going to intimidate me or drive me away.

Time to call in Bertie and troop.....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim, still not gettingIf I'm that stupid and my notes are that
insignificant, why is
this discussion string the most extensive on the ng,

SHADES OF LONG ISLAND>>>WE HAVE A MACKEREL!!!!!!!!

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim claimed:
I don't think I've ever seen any of
those "not" conditions. - But I'll keep an eye out for them.


And that's another reason why you don't belong here...everyone else knew
what that meant...
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim Cate" > wrote

> As long as I keep posting the same crap over and over and over and over


It really is time for Bertie.....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

I'm of the opinion that the guy is a MacGregor infiltrate, sent by the
> company to turn the attention of the group on their sorry product...



--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Martin Baxter]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
> Because he's either stupid, a troll, or trying to justify his poor choice.
>

All three?

Cheers
Marty

[Scott Vernon]

> wrote
>
> >are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
> >
>
> It is double hulled, but the space in between the layers is water ballast,
which
> gives you a head start on filling up the rest of the boat with water.

and the space in-between your ears is a vacuum if you think the Mac is
double hulled.

SV

[Scott Vernon]

I knew that.

Jim has an excuse, he's an idiot. You should know better.


floor?


Scotty


> wrote
> >
>
> Scotty,
>
> There is a space between the bottom of the boat and the floor of the
> boat. It is a tank for water ballast. Jim thinks that means the same
> thing as double hulled.
>
> BB
>

[JAXAshby]

SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


>>>However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing
>>
>>
>> not that anyone but you can see.
>
>Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
>criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
>seems to have several advantages.
>
>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>
>(2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
>in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
>contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
>compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
>enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
>quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
>"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
>racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)
>
>(3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
>to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
>while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
>power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
>preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
>"better" boat.
>
>(4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
>is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
>were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
>and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
>turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
>contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
>as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
>respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
>to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
>play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
>must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
>the Mac for such shallow water activities.
>
>I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
>will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
>that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
>understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
>therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).
>
>(5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
>the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
>the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
>wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
>talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
>only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
>larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.
>
>Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
>used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

>I'll be here for whatever time it takes for you to come to the
>realization that you aren't going to intimidate me or drive me away. Get
>used to the idea that not all Mac owners are easy targes who will cave
>under the usual Mac-Bashing. Give it up, Katy. You're just wasting
>everyone's time.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

>katysails wrote:
>
>> Jax cried:
>> SPAM!!
>>
>> I'm of the opinion that the guy is a MacGregor infiltrate, sent by the
>> company to turn the attention of the group on their sorry product...
>
>Katy, the following note lists five advantages of the Mac 26M, while
>recognizing some of its limitations and disadvantages. How about
>addressing some of these substantive issues, rather than posting more
>ridiculous, childish personal attacks?
>
>Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
>criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
>seems to have several advantages.
>
>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>
>(2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
>in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
>contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
>compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
>enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
>quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
>"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
>racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)
>
>(3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
>to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
>while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
>power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
>preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
>"better" boat.
>
>(4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
>is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
>were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
>and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
>turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
>contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
>as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
>respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
>to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
>play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
>must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
>the Mac for such shallow water activities.
>
>I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
>will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
>that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
>understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
>therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).
>
>(5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
>the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
>the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
>wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
>talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
>only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
>larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.
>
>Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
>used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

>> Jimbo, did you ask your silly questions on the Mac list, like I suggested?
>>
>> SV
>>
>
>Yes. The great majority on the Mac lists have one of the the older
>models. I did correspond with and speak with some 26M owners.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

>Johathan, the following note lists five advantages of the Mac 26M, while
>recognizing some of its limitations and disadvantages. How about
>addressing some of such substantive issues, rather than posting more
>ridiculous personal attacks?
>
>Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
>criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
>seems to have several advantages.
>
>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>
>(2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
>in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
>contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
>compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
>enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
>quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
>"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
>racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)
>
>(3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
>to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
>while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
>power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
>preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
>"better" boat.
>
>(4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
>is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
>were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
>and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
>turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
>contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
>as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
>respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
>to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
>play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
>must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
>the Mac for such shallow water activities.
>
>I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
>will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
>that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
>understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
>therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).
>
>(5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
>the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
>the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
>wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
>talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
>only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
>larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.
>
>Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
>used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Scott Vernon]

> wrote
> >
>
> It seemed to throw me.


And that's why
> wrote in message
...
>
> It is double hulled,


You're sinking fast.
SV

[felton]

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:49:36 -0400, "Scott Vernon" >
wrote:

>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>
>SV

He may be thinking that a liner is a second hull, which will prevent
him from sinking if one of those drunken powerboaters hits him doing
60mph. Perhaps Macs have foam floatation, as most of them would
otherwise be on the bottom. If I make it up to the Valiant yard in
the next few days, perhaps I will suggest that they may want to
"improve" their boats with some of these innovations:)

Here is a question for Jim...a drunken powerboater is heading towards
you. You can elect to be in a Valiant or a Mac. Which do you
choose?:) If you are really so naive as to think that a Mac 26 is a
more survivable boat in any scenario than a Valiant or any other
"real" sailboat, then thanks for the comic relief.

The obvious solution to your dilemma was to have chosen a marina
closer to where you wish to sail. You can drive a car faster than
even the motorboat you have chosen will go. I will grant you that if
your only criteria was how fast you can motor in your "sailboat", then
you have probably chosen wisely. For $30k you could have bought a
pretty decent powerboat instead. Live and learn.



>"Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
>>
>> (1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

I think you guys need to get a room...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:23:34 -0400, "Scott Vernon" >
> wrote:
>
> > wrote
> >> >
> >>
> >> It seemed to throw me.
> >
> >
> >And that's why
> > > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> It is double hulled,
> >
> >
> >You're sinking fast.
> >SV
> >
>
> The problem here, portly one, is that you are not thinking fast.
>
> BB

[Jonathan Ganz]

I try not to speculate too much.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Martin Baxter" > wrote in message
...
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
> > Because he's either stupid, a troll, or trying to justify his poor
choice.
> >
>
> All three?
>
> Cheers
> Marty
>

[Donal]

"katysails" > wrote in message
...
> Jim boasted:
> I'll be here for whatever time it takes for you to come to the
> realization that you aren't going to intimidate me or drive me away.
>
> Time to call in Bertie and troop.....


Oh gawd ... I hope that Oz doesn't read that.




Regards


Donal
--

[Wally]

Jim Cate wrote:

> This isn't what happened at all. I posted my questions several times
> on this an on the cruising ng and scanned the reponses for over a
> month hoping to get some factual or substantive information regarding
> the 26M. It was only after weeks of "Mac bashings" ...

What, you came into a sailing newsgroup to enquire about about a boat you
knew little about, it's gets slagged off something rotten for a month...

....and then you go and *buy* one?

Nobody is that stupid.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

[Wally]

Jim Cate wrote:

> Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
> or VHF?

What's a "depth-knot"?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

[Peter Wiley]

In article >, Jonathan Ganz
> wrote:

> Sure, I'm bored Jhm.

Well, he's good for something, then. My thoughts on his list of points
was exactly the same as yours - get a catamaran.

As someone else said, let's see that thing plane or move at 18 knots in
a nasty chop and 30 knot headwind. Isn't going to happen.

PDW

[Flying Tadpole]

Wally wrote:
>
> Jim Cate wrote:
>
> > Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
> > or VHF?
>
> What's a "depth-knot"?
>

Some log or other?

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

[Wally]

Flying Tadpole wrote:

>> What's a "depth-knot"?

> Some log or other?

Sink-rate meter?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

[Flying Tadpole]

Wally wrote:
>
> Flying Tadpole wrote:
>
> >> What's a "depth-knot"?
>
> > Some log or other?
>
> Sink-rate meter?

Oh. The perhaps he has a depth-wish?
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

[Flying Tadpole]

Flying Tadpole wrote:
>
> Wally wrote:
> >
> > Flying Tadpole wrote:
> >
> > >> What's a "depth-knot"?
> >
> > > Some log or other?
> >
> > Sink-rate meter?
>
> Oh. The perhaps he has a depth-wish?

Dam dam dam. The "" o this keyboard is't workg aymore, would't
you kow it. A real uisace whe oe is tryg to commet o the most
recet utcase and attemptig to respod to ew sappy postigs.

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

[Wally]

Flying Tadpole wrote:

>> Oh. The perhaps he has a depth-wish?
>
> Dam dam dam. The "" o this keyboard is't workg aymore, would't
> you kow it. A real uisace whe oe is tryg to commet o the most
> recet utcase and attemptig to respod to ew sappy postigs.

Don't worry about t - my '' key is flakey as well.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> "Jim Cate" > wrote
>
>> I'll be here for whatever time it takes for you to come to the
>>realization that you aren't going to intimidate me or drive me away.
>
>
>
> Then you'll die here.



I'm not afraid to die.

Jim
>
>
>
>>Get
>>used to the idea that I'm just wasting
>>everyone's time.
>>
>>Jim
>
>
> Yup.
>

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> I think he's already brain dead. Does anything else matter?
>

Johnathan, if I'm that dense and that brain dead, why do you continue to
spend your time following this discussion?

Jim

[Flying Tadpole]

Jim Cate wrote:
>
> Jonathan Ganz wrote:
>
> > I think he's already brain dead. Does anything else matter?
> >
>
> Johnathan, if I'm that dense and that brain dead, why do you continue to
> spend your time following this discussion?
>

Because he's a sadist with a bent to necrophilia. Tell us more
about a Macgregor 100 miles offshore. The local ones don't seem
to handle a five-foot chop very well.
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

[Jim Cate]

Scott, in case you hadn't realized it, there's no law requiring you to
continue following this discussion. If I'm really that stupid, and if my
remarks are really that vacuous, why in hell do you continue to waste
your time in this discussion string? There are lots of others that you
might be interested in. (Actually, of course, you are obviously
stressed out over your inability to put me down, even with the help of
your buddies. It's just not supposed to happen like this, is it?
Everyone knows that any half-way knowledgable sailor should be able to
put down a Mac-lover with just a few sarcastic remarks. - But I'm still
here and still cheerfully stating my position. In fact, I'm actually
more confident in my position than I was when I came on the ng, since
it's increasingly obvious that you and your buddies have almost nothing
to say of substance. It's obvious that you have given up on citing any
objective issues, and you are increasingly resorting to personal, ad
hominem attacks. You obviously aren't making any progress at all, and
it's obviously getting to you.)

Jim





Scott Vernon wrote:

> "Jim Cate" > wrote >
>
>>Really? If I'm that stupid and my notes are that insignificant, why is
>>this discussion string the most extensive on the ng, with over 400
>>responses?
>
>
> The 'ol bobspit ploy, start a stupid troll, keep fueling it with dumber than
> **** remarks, then claim to 'WIN' because ''his thread'' has the most posts.
> Yup, you're a winner Jim, you and bob****, a couple of winners.
>
> SV
>

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jim, still not gettingIf I'm that stupid and my notes are that
> insignificant, why is
> this discussion string the most extensive on the ng,
>
> SHADES OF LONG ISLAND>>>WE HAVE A MACKEREL!!!!!!!!
>

But why are you wasting your time in this discussion, if what I'm saying
is that insignificant and doesn't have an element of truth?

Jim

[JAXAshby]

>I'm not afraid to die.
>
>Jim

afraid to? looks like you are deliberately trying to.

[JAXAshby]

>Johnathan, if I'm that dense and that brain dead, why do you continue to
>spend your time following this discussion?
>
>Jim

because you are a dishonest flack for the company. keep it up jimmy boy and
every last person who even considered buyin one of those things for flat, calm
water will puke hearing the word "Mac" even the context of hamburgers.

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>
> SV
>
> "Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
>
>>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>
>
>
Yes it is. If the outer (lowermost) hull is penetrated, water is still
retained wihin the water ballast cavity located above the lower hull for
most of the length of the boat and is prevented from entering the cabin.

Also, if both hulls are penetrated, the boat remains afloat due to the
built-in foam floatation.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:49:36 -0400, "Scott Vernon" > wrote:
>
>
>>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>>
>
>
> It is double hulled, but the space in between the layers is water ballast, which
> gives you a head start on filling up the rest of the boat with water.
>
> BB
>
>


Of course, if only the lower hull is penetrated, water doesn't get into
the cabin at all. Also, as mentioned above, the built-in flotation will
keep the boat afloat even if water enters the cabin.

Jim


>>SV
>>
>>"Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
>>
>>>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>>
>

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> > wrote
>
>>>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>>>
>>
>>It is double hulled, but the space in between the layers is water ballast,
>
> which
>
>>gives you a head start on filling up the rest of the boat with water.
>
>
> and the space in-between your ears is a vacuum if you think the Mac is
> double hulled.
>
> SV
>

In other words, you lost that one, so you now have no response other
than to resort to your usual personal, ad hominem attacks? Isn't that
about the size of it Scott? (Scotty, for a change, why don't you just
admit that I was right? Some little attempt at honesty and balance
isn't all that difficult, after all, and it might even make you feel
better.)
>

Jim

[Flying Tadpole]

Jim Cate wrote:
>
> katysails wrote:
>
> > Jim, still not gettingIf I'm that stupid and my notes are that
> > insignificant, why is
> > this discussion string the most extensive on the ng,
> >
> > SHADES OF LONG ISLAND>>>WE HAVE A MACKEREL!!!!!!!!
> >
>
> But why are you wasting your time in this discussion, if what I'm saying
> is that insignificant and doesn't have an element of truth?
>

Jim, you keep asking this question in one form or another, so it
appears you don't really see the answer. As I'm a kind and
generous soul, much more so than the rest of these
bottom-dwellers here, here's a bit of help for you.

This newsgroup has been notable for years in its exercise of
virtual cruelty, especially on the innocent, to the point where
even the FAQs are full of dire warnings. The cruellest of the
virtual cruelties is, of course, the goading of the
uncomprehending. When such goading has been done expertly, these
sadists can sit back, and apply only the lightest of touches,
while the suffering goad themselves into increasing frenzy, in an
almost self-perpetuating cycle, providing hours of entertainment
for the watchers, for minimal effort on their part. Do you now
see why most of the regulars in this group are here "wasting
their time in this discussion?"
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

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[JAXAshby]

SPAM!!

>Scott, in case you hadn't realized it, there's no law requiring you to
>continue following this discussion. If I'm really that stupid, and if my
>remarks are really that vacuous, why in hell do you continue to waste
>your time in this discussion string? There are lots of others that you
>might be interested in. (Actually, of course, you are obviously
>stressed out over your inability to put me down, even with the help of
>your buddies. It's just not supposed to happen like this, is it?
>Everyone knows that any half-way knowledgable sailor should be able to
>put down a Mac-lover with just a few sarcastic remarks. - But I'm still
>here and still cheerfully stating my position. In fact, I'm actually
>more confident in my position than I was when I came on the ng, since
>it's increasingly obvious that you and your buddies have almost nothing
>to say of substance. It's obvious that you have given up on citing any
>objective issues, and you are increasingly resorting to personal, ad
>hominem attacks. You obviously aren't making any progress at all, and
>it's obviously getting to you.)
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>Scott Vernon wrote:
>
>> "Jim Cate" > wrote >
>>
>>>Really? If I'm that stupid and my notes are that insignificant, why is
>>>this discussion string the most extensive on the ng, with over 400
>>>responses?
>>
>>
>> The 'ol bobspit ploy, start a stupid troll, keep fueling it with dumber
>than
>> **** remarks, then claim to 'WIN' because ''his thread'' has the most
>posts.
>> Yup, you're a winner Jim, you and bob****, a couple of winners.
>>
>> SV
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

SPAM!!

>> Jim, still not gettingIf I'm that stupid and my notes are that
>> insignificant, why is
>> this discussion string the most extensive on the ng,
>>
>> SHADES OF LONG ISLAND>>>WE HAVE A MACKEREL!!!!!!!!
>>
>
>But why are you wasting your time in this discussion, if what I'm saying
>is that insignificant and doesn't have an element of truth?
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[JAXAshby]

SPAM!!

>> are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>>
>> SV
>>
>> "Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
>>
>>>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>>
>>
>>
>Yes it is. If the outer (lowermost) hull is penetrated, water is still
>retained wihin the water ballast cavity located above the lower hull for
>most of the length of the boat and is prevented from entering the cabin.
>
>Also, if both hulls are penetrated, the boat remains afloat due to the
>built-in foam floatation.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Jonathan Ganz]

Taddy, how did you know that????

JHHM, did you even read my other post about catamarans and tri?
Can you read?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Flying Tadpole" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jim Cate wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan Ganz wrote:
> >
> > > I think he's already brain dead. Does anything else matter?
> > >
> >
> > Johnathan, if I'm that dense and that brain dead, why do you continue to
> > spend your time following this discussion?
> >
>
> Because he's a sadist with a bent to necrophilia. Tell us more
> about a Macgregor 100 miles offshore. The local ones don't seem
> to handle a five-foot chop very well.
> --
> Flying Tadpole
>
> -------------------------
> Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
> http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

[Jonathan Ganz]

I don't think it's a question of "if" you're stupid.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
> Scott, in case you hadn't realized it, there's no law requiring you to
> continue following this discussion. If I'm really that stupid, and if my
> remarks are really that vacuous, why in hell do you continue to waste
> your time in this discussion string? There are lots of others that you
> might be interested in. (Actually, of course, you are obviously
> stressed out over your inability to put me down, even with the help of
> your buddies. It's just not supposed to happen like this, is it?
> Everyone knows that any half-way knowledgable sailor should be able to
> put down a Mac-lover with just a few sarcastic remarks. - But I'm still
> here and still cheerfully stating my position. In fact, I'm actually
> more confident in my position than I was when I came on the ng, since
> it's increasingly obvious that you and your buddies have almost nothing
> to say of substance. It's obvious that you have given up on citing any
> objective issues, and you are increasingly resorting to personal, ad
> hominem attacks. You obviously aren't making any progress at all, and
> it's obviously getting to you.)
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > "Jim Cate" > wrote >
> >
> >>Really? If I'm that stupid and my notes are that insignificant, why is
> >>this discussion string the most extensive on the ng, with over 400
> >>responses?
> >
> >
> > The 'ol bobspit ploy, start a stupid troll, keep fueling it with dumber
than
> > **** remarks, then claim to 'WIN' because ''his thread'' has the most
posts.
> > Yup, you're a winner Jim, you and bob****, a couple of winners.
> >
> > SV
> >
>

[Jeff Morris]

Its funny, the drawing on the web site don't show this to be "double hulled".
The water ballast is on the center line, not around the chine - it would be easy
to penetrate the hull with a glancing blow to a rock.

BTW, what would happen to the daggerboard if it touched bottom?



"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:49:36 -0400, "Scott Vernon" >
wrote:
> >
> >
> >>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
> >>
> >
> >
> > It is double hulled, but the space in between the layers is water ballast,
which
> > gives you a head start on filling up the rest of the boat with water.
> >
> > BB
> >
> >
>
>
> Of course, if only the lower hull is penetrated, water doesn't get into
> the cabin at all. Also, as mentioned above, the built-in flotation will
> keep the boat afloat even if water enters the cabin.
>
> Jim
>
>
> >>SV
> >>
> >>"Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
> >>
> >>>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
> >>
> >
>

[Martin Baxter]

Flying Tadpole wrote:

> Do you now
> see why most of the regulars in this group are here "wasting
> their time in this discussion?"


Jeeze Taddy! Why do you have to spoil our fun, you bucking for
the Mother Theresa award?

Cheers
Marty

[otnmbrd]

Would agree. It's definitely not double hulled, and from the drawings
I'd say it's not completely double bottomed.

Jeff Morris wrote:
> Its funny, the drawing on the web site don't show this to be "double hulled".
> The water ballast is on the center line, not around the chine - it would be easy
> to penetrate the hull with a glancing blow to a rock.
>
> BTW, what would happen to the daggerboard if it touched bottom?

[John Cairns]

"Flying Tadpole" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jim Cate wrote:
> >
> > katysails wrote:
> >
> > > Jim, still not gettingIf I'm that stupid and my notes are that
> > > insignificant, why is
> > > this discussion string the most extensive on the ng,
> > >
> > > SHADES OF LONG ISLAND>>>WE HAVE A MACKEREL!!!!!!!!
> > >
> >
> > But why are you wasting your time in this discussion, if what I'm saying
> > is that insignificant and doesn't have an element of truth?
> >
>
> Jim, you keep asking this question in one form or another, so it
> appears you don't really see the answer. As I'm a kind and
> generous soul, much more so than the rest of these
> bottom-dwellers here, here's a bit of help for you.
>
> This newsgroup has been notable for years in its exercise of
> virtual cruelty, especially on the innocent, to the point where
> even the FAQs are full of dire warnings. The cruellest of the
> virtual cruelties is, of course, the goading of the
> uncomprehending. When such goading has been done expertly, these
> sadists can sit back, and apply only the lightest of touches,
> while the suffering goad themselves into increasing frenzy, in an
> almost self-perpetuating cycle, providing hours of entertainment
> for the watchers, for minimal effort on their part. Do you now
> see why most of the regulars in this group are here "wasting
> their time in this discussion?"
> --
> Flying Tadpole
>
> -------------------------
> Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
> http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com
>
> COmpulsory sailing content
> The Light Schooner http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/index.htm
> SquareBoats! http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm
> Bolger Boats netted! http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sites2.htm

Tadpole, I don't think this guy is an innocent. Either he's a troll or he's
pimping for mac, no one could possibly be this gullible or stupid. He quotes
mac sales literature like it came from a burning bush. It was slightly
entertaining for a while but I notice when his statements get taken apart
like an overdone piece of chicken, he doesn't respond. I would guess he's a
pimp.
John Cairns

[katysails]

Dam dam dam. The "" o this keyboard is't workg aymore, would't
you kow it. A real uisace whe oe is tryg to commet o the most
recet utcase and attemptig to respod to ew sappy postigs.

Hot dang! Taddie's finally learnt katytype~!!!!!

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim claimed:
I'm not afraid to die.

Prove it.
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim excoriated:
If I'm really that stupid, and if my
remarks are really that vacuous, why in hell do you continue to waste
your time in this discussion string?

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!!!! This is what we do here to people like you. And
there is a rule...it is OUR rule....if you don't like it, then I suggest you
complain to Mr. Fortin. He's a very understanding person and will make sure
that we're all punished for making his newsgroup such a nasty place for you.
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

Jim asked: But why are you wasting your time in this discussion, if what I'm
saying
is that insignificant and doesn't have an element of truth?

Because we're all sick s*its who have nothing better to do than make you
miserable.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[katysails]

I have an idea. When Jim's new boat is finally delivered, how's about we
all run down there to Galveston and do some testing on our own? Bring sharp
implements, axes, adze, whatever you have, and we'll test his hull theory.
He shouldn't mind at all since he has such great faith in his product and it
would be doing a world of good since, of course, all of his claims would
prove true.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Jonathan Ganz]

I don't think you'd need all that hardware. All that we have to do
is to attempt to sail it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katysails" > wrote in message
...
> I have an idea. When Jim's new boat is finally delivered, how's about we
> all run down there to Galveston and do some testing on our own? Bring
sharp
> implements, axes, adze, whatever you have, and we'll test his hull theory.
> He shouldn't mind at all since he has such great faith in his product and
it
> would be doing a world of good since, of course, all of his claims would
> prove true.
>
> --
> katysails
> s/v Chanteuse
> Kirie Elite 32
> http://katysails.tripod.com
>
> "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
> and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein
>
>

[Flying Tadpole]

John Cairns wrote:
>

> Tadpole, I don't think this guy is an innocent. Either he's a troll or he's
> pimping for mac, no one could possibly be this gullible or stupid. He quotes
> mac sales literature like it came from a burning bush. It was slightly
> entertaining for a while but I notice when his statements get taken apart
> like an overdone piece of chicken, he doesn't respond. I would guess he's a
> pimp.
> John Cairns

Well, I'm kind and generous, like I said, and I feel that even
the lowest should be given their chance to redeem themselves.
Besides, it _could_ have been Bobsprit trying out another script,
and if so, deserving of applause for the longest troll for a long
time, in which all have enjoyed themselves.

But given the non-responses, you may be right, and Jim the Deafer
is just a chicken past-its-date, going down. OTOH, would even a
Macgregor pimp suggst taking a Mac 100 miles off-shore???

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

[Peter Wiley]

In article >,
> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:23:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
> > wrote:
>
> >Its funny, the drawing on the web site don't show this to be "double hulled".
> >The water ballast is on the center line, not around the chine - it would be
> >easy
> >to penetrate the hull with a glancing blow to a rock.
> >
> >BTW, what would happen to the daggerboard if it touched bottom?
> >
> >
>
> The daggerboard stays, and the rest of the boat keeps going.
>
> Other tidbits from Macgregor: The factory does not supply gas tank
> hold downs. If you wish to add your own, DO NOT drill any holes! You
> must glass in the hold downs.
>
> If you install a second battery, DO NOT put it next to the existing
> one. It will cause too much stress (what's that battery weigh? 50
> pounds?) You must mount it on the opposite side of the boat.
>
>
> By the way, if you motor with the ballast tank empty, bear in mind
> that the boat is then VERY top heavy, and extremely prone to
> capsizing. Make all turns very slowly and gradually, and always avoid
> the wakes from other boats and large fish.

I did wonder about that. Next question is, does the thing plane with
the ballast tank full? If not, there goes the 18 knots.....

PDW

[Flying Tadpole]

Mere nitpicking. _I_ want Jim to tell me how it copes with a 5
foot square chop, so I can rush down and tell the owners of one
of the local X's what they're doing wrong, and that they're now
free to get out on the lake (indeed, 100 miles out) in other than
zero-wind conditions!

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

Peter Wiley wrote:
>
> In article >,
> > wrote:

> > Other tidbits from Macgregor: The factory does not supply gas tank
> > hold downs. If you wish to add your own, DO NOT drill any holes! You
> > must glass in the hold downs.
> >
> > If you install a second battery, DO NOT put it next to the existing
> > one. It will cause too much stress (what's that battery weigh? 50
> > pounds?) You must mount it on the opposite side of the boat.
> >
> >
> > By the way, if you motor with the ballast tank empty, bear in mind
> > that the boat is then VERY top heavy, and extremely prone to
> > capsizing. Make all turns very slowly and gradually, and always avoid
> > the wakes from other boats and large fish.
>
> I did wonder about that. Next question is, does the thing plane with
> the ballast tank full? If not, there goes the 18 knots.....
>
> PDW

[Jeff Morris]

In one place they say they lose 3 mph when the ballast if full. In another,
they say they lose one mph for every 100 pounds added. Also, the "22 mph" is
with empty tanks, no rigging, one person, flat seas. They advise not running
without ballast, but if you must, there's a long list of safety precautions,
like not going on deck, staying seated, only do it if the seas are under one
foot and the water is warm, etc.



"Peter Wiley" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >,
> > wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:23:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Its funny, the drawing on the web site don't show this to be "double
hulled".
> > >The water ballast is on the center line, not around the chine - it would be
> > >easy
> > >to penetrate the hull with a glancing blow to a rock.
> > >
> > >BTW, what would happen to the daggerboard if it touched bottom?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The daggerboard stays, and the rest of the boat keeps going.
> >
> > Other tidbits from Macgregor: The factory does not supply gas tank
> > hold downs. If you wish to add your own, DO NOT drill any holes! You
> > must glass in the hold downs.
> >
> > If you install a second battery, DO NOT put it next to the existing
> > one. It will cause too much stress (what's that battery weigh? 50
> > pounds?) You must mount it on the opposite side of the boat.
> >
> >
> > By the way, if you motor with the ballast tank empty, bear in mind
> > that the boat is then VERY top heavy, and extremely prone to
> > capsizing. Make all turns very slowly and gradually, and always avoid
> > the wakes from other boats and large fish.
>
> I did wonder about that. Next question is, does the thing plane with
> the ballast tank full? If not, there goes the 18 knots.....
>
> PDW

[Jim Cate]

Peter Wiley wrote:
> In article >, Jonathan Ganz
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Sure, I'm bored Jhm.
>
>
> Well, he's good for something, then. My thoughts on his list of points
> was exactly the same as yours - get a catamaran.
>
> As someone else said, let's see that thing plane or move at 18 knots in
> a nasty chop and 30 knot headwind. Isn't going to happen.
>
> PDW
\
Actually, I would have reefed a long time before experiencing 30 knot
winds in any direction. The Mac has some obvious advantages and also
some obvious disadvantages. One of the disadvantages (with respect to
sailing in heavy weather offshore) is that it isn't a heavy
discplacement boat weighing over 15,000 pounds that can readily handle
30 knot winds. On the other hand, one of its advantages (with respect
to 90% of the conditions I expect to sail in) is that it isn't a heavy
displacment boat weighing over 15,000 pounds, but can still survive in
heavy weather.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

felton wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:49:36 -0400, "Scott Vernon" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>>
>>SV
>
>
> He may be thinking that a liner is a second hull, which will prevent
> him from sinking if one of those drunken powerboaters hits him doing
> 60mph. Perhaps Macs have foam floatation, as most of them would
> otherwise be on the bottom. If I make it up to the Valiant yard in
> the next few days, perhaps I will suggest that they may want to
> "improve" their boats with some of these innovations:)
>
> Here is a question for Jim...a drunken powerboater is heading towards
> you. You can elect to be in a Valiant or a Mac. Which do you
> choose?:) If you are really so naive as to think that a Mac 26 is a
> more survivable boat in any scenario than a Valiant or any other
> "real" sailboat, then thanks for the comic relief.
>

If I could anticipate that a drunken powerboater were going to hit me
going 50 mph, I would prefer a Valiant, although even then, I don't
think you could predict what would happen. (It's possible that the hull
of the Valiant would be compromised, in which case its keel would
quickly pull it to the bottom.) But a new Valiant would cost around
$400,000, normally equiped, or more than 10 times the cost of the Mac
loaded with navigation and autosteering. - You can't always get what you
want, but sometimes, if you try real hard, you just might get what you
need. - Which in my case is the 26M.

Now, let me ask you a question. - If you were sailing in a displacemenet
boat in unexpected high winds, and you had your son tethered to the boat
for safety, and it became obvious that the boat was going to founder,
would you prefer that the boat have positive foam flotation, as in the
MacGregor, or would you prefer that your son be on a discplacement boat
with a heavy keel that would drag the boat and its occupants to the
bottom within a few minutes?



> The obvious solution to your dilemma was to have chosen a marina
> closer to where you wish to sail. You can drive a car faster than
> even the motorboat you have chosen will go. I will grant you that if
> your only criteria was how fast you can motor in your "sailboat", then
> you have probably chosen wisely. For $30k you could have bought a
> pretty decent powerboat instead. Live and learn.
>
Felton, I don't like power boats. I want the power capabilities of the Mac
because it will enable us to get to good blue water sailing areas more
quickly, and also
permit us to fish, and let our grandkids play safely in shallow water,
or beach the boat. It will also permit us to motor out, do some sailing
and some fishing and/or some swimming, and motor back within a few
hours, rather than taking the entire weekend.

Jim


p,
>
>
>>"Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
>>
>>>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>>
>

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> I'm of the opinion that the guy is a MacGregor infiltrate, sent by the
>
>>company to turn the attention of the group on their sorry product...
>

Not at all. However, I am interested in maintaining some balance
between differing points of view, and it's obvious that the Mac-Bashers
have posted more than their share of notes ridiculing Mac owners in the
past few years, despite the fact that most of them know little or
nothing about the current model. Hopfully, I can help make up the
difference.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 07:54:53 -0400, "Scott Vernon" >
> wrote:
>
>
> wrote
>>
>>>>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>>>>
>>>
>>>It is double hulled, but the space in between the layers is water ballast,
>>
>>which
>>
>>>gives you a head start on filling up the rest of the boat with water.
>>
>>and the space in-between your ears is a vacuum if you think the Mac is
>>double hulled.
>>
>
>
> Scotty,
>
> There is a space between the bottom of the boat and the floor of the
> boat. It is a tank for water ballast. Jim thinks that means the same
> thing as double hulled.
>
> Whether or not you call it a second hull, it is a second wall that preents
entry of water into the cabin if the lower hull is compromised. - Does
the Valiant have one of these back-up walls? I didn't see one on the one
we sailed.

Jim
barrier that would pre or not

[Jim Cate]

katysails wrote:

> Jim claimed:
> I don't think I've ever seen any of
> those "not" conditions. - But I'll keep an eye out for them.
>
>
> And that's another reason why you don't belong here...everyone else knew
> what that meant...

Actually, I knew what you meant too, Katy. It was just too tempting.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

I'm still here because it's clear that the ng needs some balance and
fresh air and differing viewpoints on some issues. And also because
some Mac owners have come on the group and been intimidated and driven
off, and because I frankly don't like your attitude.

What HASN'T been explained is why you and your buddies are so very
concerned and stressed out about my remarks that you can't simply press
the "down button" and move on to another topic. Why do you want to
continue wasting time in this discussion if you REALLY think my comments
are totally insignificant and absurd and without merit? It should be
clear to you by now that you aren't going to drive me away. - So what's
keeping you in this discussion? Why can't you just leave it alone?

Jim



Scott Vernon wrote:

> Yup.
>
>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote
>
>
>>As long as I keep posting the same crap over and over and over and over
>
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over and again, I'll look like a fool.
>
> Jim MacGregor
>

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Prove it. I think you bought it a few weeks ago. I have it on
> good authority. Prove I'm wrong.

I placed the order for the Mac on March 25. My initial note on this ng
was posted February 25. Prior to ordering the Mac, I was seriously
considering several other boats, as mentioned in some of my other notes
posted in February and March.

Jim
>

[Jim Cate]

Scott Vernon wrote:

> Then why are you still here?


Because: there weren't very many owners of the
new 26M, and I thought I might get some further substantive information
from this group, which is larger than the Mac group. I'm remaining on
the ng because it's become increasingly obvious that many on this ng
have become opinionated, set in their ways and rigid in their views, and
because the ng needs some new insights and some contributors who are
willing to state and defend some differing points of view.

Jim

>
> "Jim Cate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Scott Vernon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jimbo, did you ask your silly questions on the Mac list, like I
>
> suggested?
>
>>>SV
>>>
>>
>>Yes. The great majority on the Mac lists have one of the the older
>>models. I did correspond with and speak with some 26M owners.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>
>

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> Because he's either stupid, a troll, or trying to justify his poor choice.
>

Then why are you sticking around in this discussion, John? Can't let it go?

Jim

[felton]

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:16:19 -0500, Jim Cate > wrote:

>
>
>felton wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:49:36 -0400, "Scott Vernon" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
>>>
>>>SV
>>
>>
>> He may be thinking that a liner is a second hull, which will prevent
>> him from sinking if one of those drunken powerboaters hits him doing
>> 60mph. Perhaps Macs have foam floatation, as most of them would
>> otherwise be on the bottom. If I make it up to the Valiant yard in
>> the next few days, perhaps I will suggest that they may want to
>> "improve" their boats with some of these innovations:)
>>
>> Here is a question for Jim...a drunken powerboater is heading towards
>> you. You can elect to be in a Valiant or a Mac. Which do you
>> choose?:) If you are really so naive as to think that a Mac 26 is a
>> more survivable boat in any scenario than a Valiant or any other
>> "real" sailboat, then thanks for the comic relief.
>>
>
>If I could anticipate that a drunken powerboater were going to hit me
>going 50 mph, I would prefer a Valiant, although even then, I don't
>think you could predict what would happen. (It's possible that the hull
>of the Valiant would be compromised, in which case its keel would
>quickly pull it to the bottom.) But a new Valiant would cost around
>$400,000, normally equiped, or more than 10 times the cost of the Mac
>loaded with navigation and autosteering. - You can't always get what you
>want, but sometimes, if you try real hard, you just might get what you
>need. - Which in my case is the 26M.

Hmmm. Moving the goalposts it would seem. Of course a Valiant is a
vastly more expensive boat that frankly is "overkill" for the kind of
sailing that you or I do. I am unclear why you keep choosing to
compare the Mac to the Valiant, but since you do I keep pointing out
the obvious. The fact that no Valiant has ever gone to the bottom but
have logged many a circumnavigation should put your mind at ease, but
yet the fact that you still cling to the belief that a 3500lb clorox
bottle is somehow "safer" than a Valiant, or any "real" sailboat,
speaks volumes to any real sailor.



>Now, let me ask you a question. - If you were sailing in a displacemenet
>boat in unexpected high winds, and you had your son tethered to the boat
>for safety, and it became obvious that the boat was going to founder,
>would you prefer that the boat have positive foam flotation, as in the
>MacGregor, or would you prefer that your son be on a discplacement boat
>with a heavy keel that would drag the boat and its occupants to the
>bottom within a few minutes?

I would absolutely prefer to be on a displacement boat than rely on
foam floatation in a lightly built clorox bottle. There is absolutely
no doubt in my mind which would be the safer boat. My boat has a real
rig, unlike the Mac. I can depower my rig, shorten sail, or even go
bare poles if need be. Anyone on a Mac 26 is going to be SOL. It
really doesn't give me much comfort knowing that there may be some
foam floatation on which I can cling waiting for rescue.

>
>> The obvious solution to your dilemma was to have chosen a marina
>> closer to where you wish to sail. You can drive a car faster than
>> even the motorboat you have chosen will go. I will grant you that if
>> your only criteria was how fast you can motor in your "sailboat", then
>> you have probably chosen wisely. For $30k you could have bought a
>> pretty decent powerboat instead. Live and learn.
>>
>Felton, I don't like power boats. I want the power capabilities of the Mac
>because it will enable us to get to good blue water sailing areas more
>quickly, and also
>permit us to fish, and let our grandkids play safely in shallow water,
>or beach the boat. It will also permit us to motor out, do some sailing
>and some fishing and/or some swimming, and motor back within a few
>hours, rather than taking the entire weekend.
>
>Jim

While I am not a fan of powerboats either, given your objectives, you
should have bought one. A Mac 26 is the worst of both worlds.
Something for everyone, I suppose. Someone even married my ex-wife:)

>p,
>>
>>
>>>"Jim Cate" < wrote 6 times...
>>>
>>>>(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.
>>>
>>

[Jeff Morris]

Perhaps you should look at the drawings of your beloved boat - its doesn't have
a double hull either. The portion of the hull the is protected by the ballast
tank is about a third of the underwater surface - and its the part least likely
to be damaged in a collision. If you hit a log (especially at speed) you're
going to need that foam flotation. And the boat will be a total loss, the
engine certainly wasted. BTW, they never actually say that there is enough foam
to float the boat if the engine is attached, do they? Do you think they
destroyed a $8000 engine just to take that picture?

And, if you have any damage to the ballast tank, it could lose water and the
partially filled tank becomes dangerously unstable. This is not so bad if
you're on a lake where the mac belongs, but offshore this becomes treacherous.

So the question is, would you prefer a boat with a solid hull that can withstand
a beating without being compromised, or one that is likely to be compromised by
a minor collision?





"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 07:54:53 -0400, "Scott Vernon" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > wrote
> >>
> >>>>are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>It is double hulled, but the space in between the layers is water ballast,
> >>
> >>which
> >>
> >>>gives you a head start on filling up the rest of the boat with water.
> >>
> >>and the space in-between your ears is a vacuum if you think the Mac is
> >>double hulled.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Scotty,
> >
> > There is a space between the bottom of the boat and the floor of the
> > boat. It is a tank for water ballast. Jim thinks that means the same
> > thing as double hulled.
> >
> > Whether or not you call it a second hull, it is a second wall that preents
> entry of water into the cabin if the lower hull is compromised. - Does
> the Valiant have one of these back-up walls? I didn't see one on the one
> we sailed.
>
> Jim
> barrier that would pre or not
>

[Jim Cate]

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

> I try not to speculate too much.

Not so. You're willing to speculate all over the place about the 26M,
despite the fact that you haven't sailed one or spoken with anyone
who has.

Jim
>

[Jeff Morris]

We're just trying to save others from the same fate that has befallen you.

Frankly, the mac is not a bad boat if you stay in a calm lake. It's pretty
expensive, and it depreciates faster than any other boat made, but its does have
some unique qualities. But claiming that the real advantage is that you can
quickly get to "blue water" is just plain stupid.


"Jim Cate" > wrote in message
...
> I'm still here because it's clear that the ng needs some balance and
> fresh air and differing viewpoints on some issues. And also because
> some Mac owners have come on the group and been intimidated and driven
> off, and because I frankly don't like your attitude.
>
> What HASN'T been explained is why you and your buddies are so very
> concerned and stressed out about my remarks that you can't simply press
> the "down button" and move on to another topic. Why do you want to
> continue wasting time in this discussion if you REALLY think my comments
> are totally insignificant and absurd and without merit? It should be
> clear to you by now that you aren't going to drive me away. - So what's
> keeping you in this discussion? Why can't you just leave it alone?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Scott Vernon wrote:
>
> > Yup.
> >
> >
> > "Jim Cate" > wrote
> >
> >
> >>As long as I keep posting the same crap over and over and over and over
> >
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
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> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> > over and over and over and over and again, I'll look like a fool.
> >
> > Jim MacGregor
> >
>

[Jim Cate]

Wally wrote:

> Jim Cate wrote:
>
>
>>This isn't what happened at all. I posted my questions several times
>>on this an on the cruising ng and scanned the reponses for over a
>>month hoping to get some factual or substantive information regarding
>> the 26M. It was only after weeks of "Mac bashings" ...
>
>
> What, you came into a sailing newsgroup to enquire about about a boat you
> knew little about, it's gets slagged off something rotten for a month...
>
> ...and then you go and *buy* one?
>
> Nobody is that stupid.
>
You have it bass-ass backwards, Wally. I came onto this newsgroups
hoping to get some substantive, factual information. Instead, I found
out that most of the Mac-bashers have never sailed the current Mac 26,
and don't know what the hell they are talking about, yet despite this,
don't hesitate to pontificate and sneer and try to intimidate anyone who
likes the boat. This reveals to me that the Mac-bashers are either: (1)
stupid (2) incapable of rational thought, or (3) liar. In any event, it
put my mind at ease with respect to what I thought might be some
problems with the Mac, other than its inherent limitations that I
already knew. Thus, my decision was simplified, and I proceeded to
place my order. Because they are substantially sold out for the rest of
the summer, I'll be one of the fortunate few who will be able to take
delivery of this spectacular and innovated boat this season.

Jim
>